MTMTE #50

[Professor Smooth]

Although the release date was pushed back, the Japanese version of iTunes released the book on the 24th.

No spoilers from me, except to say that at least one of my predictions was really, really, REALLY wrong.

[Metal Vendetta]

Is it all in Japanese and **** or can I pirate and read it?

[Professor Smooth]

The version on iTunes Japan is in English.

[Metal Vendetta]

Eh, my torrent-fu failed me at the weekend :/ I'm sure it's out there but I don't know enough Japanese to search properly for it

[snarl]

I've read it.

Return to form, big time.

I don't think it's what you're all expecting.

[Metal Vendetta]

I finally found a copy thanks to a Ukrainian website... so yeah, while I wasn't really expecting this I think issue #51 will be a bit more akin to what I was expecting.

Great stuff though - roll on next week and spoiler-free discussion!

[Computron]

Getaway is such a dick but its difficult to not understand his view. Space-Hitler is literally walking around and everyone seems ok with it.

But the coup hurts. It really emotionally hurts.

Loved the issue and I'm both excited and scared at what is coming next.

I wonder if Thunderclash is part of the coup?

[Yaya]

SPOILERS

So you know, I thought about it, and I have to say, if I were a member of the Lost Light, I'd find myself amongst Getaway's group. In a way, the Autobot High Council, and Optimus Prime himself, were very unjust to, well, the entire universe. Why did the final fate of a megalomaniac who repeatedly committed mass intergalactic genocide get to be decided by a council of a few Autobots? What about the many races and planets who lost so many lives, their homes, etc? Why did they not have a say when the crimes were committed against them? If even one being suffered, he or she (or it) should have had their say in court. In such an instance, there would have been no chance for Megatron to get off. Not only did he get off scott free, they made him leader! Prime basically issued a big "[composite word including 'f*ck'] you" to the entire universe and the many beings who suffered great loss at the hands of Megatron.

In a way, the Autobots have become much akin to the self-righteous Jedi Council in the Star Wars universe. They may think they are doing the universe good, but fail to see the injustice they have meted out, blinded by their own smugness as the moral authority for the galaxy.

Having said that, Getaway's response may itself be a bit extreme. I haven't quite decided. Many of the crew were just following orders. But is that a good enough reason? Should they too be held accountable for not thinking Megatron through a bit more? What do you guys think?

So yeah, loved the questions this issue brings up. It really makes you think. And in many ways, we find such circumstances paralleling real-life events today.

And could someone (this means you MV) please explain to me what was going on at the end when they were observing the past events? I mean, I know it is explained how they were doing it, but I think I missed the significance of it. Something suggested that the last scene, with Getaway, was the most signficant, but it's late and my brain hurts. Please bring out the finger puppets and explain it to me.

[Professor Smooth]

I can't find it in my to fault Getaway. Calling Megatron "space Hitler" doesn't even begin to get the point across. Megatron is, in IDW's TF universe, the biggest monster in the history of the universe. A tyrant responsible for more death, loss, pain, suffering, and terror than could be imagined by human beings. What was that line in Return of Optimus Prime? Something about the Transformers war making World War II look like a schoolyard brawl?

While the last few years of Megatron stories have done an almost unbelievable job with making such an unambiguous monster feel sympathetic, he DID all that terrible stuff. All that stuff with the Functionalists and pre-war Cybertron was BAD, but it wasn't "millions of years of war, resulting in the destruction of entire systems" bad. Every Decepticon that ever did anything despicable did so as a direct result of Megatron and the choices he made.

And now he's the co-captain of a ship that set out for the stars in celebration of Megatron's war being OVER? The folks who, free from the terror of war, chose to leave Cybertron...only to have the reason for everything terrible show up ON THEIR SHIP? That'd be like waking up a PTSD sufferer up with an AK-47 every morning. And he's joking around with Rodimus? He's got some straight man/straighter man comedy thing going on with ULTRA FREAKING MAGNUS!?!?

I don't know if Getaway intended to bring the DJD down on them, if he just tried to summon the Galactic Council, or if he just told everyone they were just ditching them on the Necrobot's planet and continuing on with their journey, but it doesn't matter. And while he was kind of a dick for trying to get rid of him by sacrificing Tailgate, I STILL can't fault Getaway. What's the most famous line in the 1986 movie? "Megatron must be stopped, no matter the cost".

Getaway's not going to make any fans by doing what he did, but he's not wrong. Even if the DJD and the Victory Destrons slaughter Megatron, Magnus, Roddy, and the rest, it's a drop in the bucket. And, as I really shouldn't have to point out, if it weren't for Megatron, the DJD wouldn't even EXIST.

Damn, Jim Bob, I haven't cared about Transformers enough to type something like this since I was a teenager. Br-freaking-vo.

[Computron]

While I sympathize with Getaway he is still wrong. Getaway forgets that Optimus got Megatron to completely renounce Decepticonism and broadcast to everyone. It wasnt a free pass.

In addition what Getaway is seeking isnt justice. Its vengeance. He is so consumed by rage that he is willing to act like Megatron to defeat Megatron.

How many innocents would Getaway sacrifice to meet his goal? Is it morally acceptable that his sacrifices are people who arent overtly hostile to Megatron?

What if Getaway was sacrificing Hound or First Aid or Ratchet?

I can underatand Getaway but he lost the moral high ground ages ago.

It would be like someone shooting General McArthur at the end of WW2 for not executing the Emperor during the US occupation of Japan.

[Yaya]

While I sympathize with Getaway he is still wrong. Getaway forgets that Optimus got Megatron to completely renounce Decepticonism and broadcast to everyone. It wasnt a free pass.

Oh, but it is a free pass. I can't really put it any better than the Professor did above, but the point is saying "I'm sorry" does not in any way exonerate Megatron for the mega-crimes he committed. Forgiveness should be left solely to the ones against whom the crimes were committed, not some council of self-righteous Autobot schmucks. That trial was a sham. Perhaps Roberts is implying there is some selfish tendency in Prime to defeat Megatron not by destroying him as he deserves, but by making him come around to Prime's own ideological way of thinking. Perhaps that's what is most important to Optimus, not that justice is served, but that his enemies see things his way. As we first read this Trial of Megatron subplot, we are curious as to how much Prime there is in Megatron. But in the end, we are led to understand that it's the other way around. The real question we should all be asking is how much Megs is there in Prime? Genius.

In addition what Getaway is seeking isnt justice. Its vengeance. He is so consumed by rage that he is willing to act like Megatron to defeat Megatron.

But can we really fault him for that? He did what any victim should do. That is, don't take justice into your own hands. Wait for the trial. And he did just that. Only to see the most egregious injustice be committed. Against everyone. How else should we expect him to react with a mass murderer on board his ship with so many accepting of it? He even took the careful steps tallying up who was pro-Megs and who was anti-Megs, in a very clear effort to not himself be unjust to innocent bystanders aboard the ship. It was the very thing Megatron would not have done. I don't see Megatron going around to every bot asking individually how they felt, did you? He simply did what he pleased, at the cost of so many innocents. Getaway is far, far from being Megatron.

How many innocents would Getaway sacrifice to meet his goal? Is it morally acceptable that his sacrifices are people who arent overtly hostile to Megatron?

Yes, this is the part I struggle with. The question is are they innocent bystanders if they were just following orders? Let's say they hated Megs, but decided it was better to follow Autobot High Command's orders. Are they still guilty? What if they eventually were planning the same thing for Megatron, only at some later date? Perhaps some had resolved to take the matter back to court once returning to Cybertron. So the question I have really is "What exactly were the questions Getaway asked and what exactly were the answers?

Bottom line, I ******* hate war. Things sometimes become so nebulous, and very rarely are there winners. Matters all too often are gray, not black and white. However, one thing is very clear to me. Ain't no way in hell Megatron should be alive right now. No way.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

I really like space Hitler.......

[Metal Vendetta]

Personally I haven't been so affected by a comic panel in ages as that one of "Everyone". Atomizer, Riptide, Crosscut and Getaway - sure, I can buy that they would turn on Roddy and the others. But Blaster, Jackpot, Grapple, Bluestreak, Siren and Hoist? They all heard what he just said to Rodimus and they seem totally cool with it. They know what the DJD are capable of, especially Riptide who went aboard the duplicate Lost Light and saw the massacre for himself, and yet they're willing to leave ten Autobots, two Camiens, Brainstorm, Cyclonus, Ravage and Megatron to their tender mercies? Man, that is cold as ice. And the guys that we don't see, like Perceptor, Hound, Xaaron and especially Thunderclash, I can't believe that they'd be on board with this plan but it's hard to see it any other way right now.

Personally I'm reminded of that bit at the end of the old Furman DW Armada comics when the Autobots turn on Megatron and shoot him right into Unicron to avenge... Smokescreen? Scavenger? I forget, somebody Megs killed, anyway. Prime welcomed Megatron into the fold and the second he was out of the picture, the Autobots took their revenge. Ah, simpler times.

So before diving into whether Getaway's right, lots of the non-mutinous aspects of this comic were great. It was a nice touch to check in with Prime, Windblade, Starscream, Fort Max and the Scavengers at the start of the issue, as that's become something of an "epic adventure" hallmark. We know **** is getting real if we see these guys in MTMTE. The battle against the Rust Giants was really fun and having Megs give the order was just glorious, although of course horribly portentous given what we now know. Then there's Megatron's class on the Lost Light where they actually make progress and explain a bit of the wider plot and it all looks like it's going to go somewhere. Again, just a horrible teaser given later revelations, and it's really hard now reading those scenes knowing that half of the people in them are conspiring against the other half. Damn.

And then there's Megatron and Nautica's "happy talk" moment and I'm not sure what to make of that at all. For a second there it looked like he was opening up and she was maybe even... flirting with him? I mean, really? Because let's face it, of course Megatron *has* never been happier. He's leading the Autobots to great victories, he's teaching them and helping them achieve their quest, like Space Hitler reinventing himself as, er, Space Jean-Luc Picard. I don't know, to me these early pages all have a "what could have been" feel to them and I don't think it's beyond Roberts to give the pot one last stir by hinting at a possible future relationship there before it all goes sour. Maybe I'm reading too much into it but... y'know, Buffy and Spike got it on after he got all vulnerable and ****. Also hidden in there is the interesting notion that one of the side effects of Fool's Energon (that nobody told Megatron about) is personality change. Shadowplay by the back door?

So the Sparkflowers are filled with raw Energon. Hm, I wonder if that will become significant and/or symbolic in the next issue or two...

While I sympathize with Getaway he is still wrong.

Undoubtedly, Getaway's crossed the moral event horizon at this point and so have the rest of the crew, depending on how much they know of and/or go along with the plan. Just because Getaway said "everyone", that doesn't mean he was telling the truth, after all.

Hm, I'm torn. If I were a Lost Lighter, I'd probably be on the Necrobot's planet with the rest of them but then I've not personally lost anyone to Space Hitler. Even Brainstorm who lost Quark couldn't bring himself to kill Megs when it came down to it...

And could someone (this means you MV) please explain to me what was going on at the end when they were observing the past events? I mean, I know it is explained how they were doing it, but I think I missed the significance of it. Something suggested that the last scene, with Getaway, was the most signficant, but it's late and my brain hurts. Please bring out the finger puppets and explain it to me.

As far as I understand it, at some point a magic window into the past opened up in Swerve's and Perceptor organised trips there so that the crew could revisit moments with their now absent friends. Unbelievably everyone behaved themselves and the magic window began to contract, though Percy noted it could widen again in the future - which it obviously does, because Getaway is using it to watch them from the present. Considering what they've been doing, the ominous implication would be that not everyone who's in the bar at the end is still alive in the present day.

We know from the prologue that Nautica, Chromedome, Rewind, Nightbeat, Minimus Ambus, Whirl, Rung and Velocity at least survive long enough to appear in the hostage videos, which is something at least. No sign of Cyclonus, Tailgate, Swerve, Skids, Brainstorm, Rodimus, Ravage or Megatron though. That can't be good. Ten's not there either, but he's not the speechifying type.

[Metal Vendetta]

So the question I have really is "What exactly were the questions Getaway asked and what exactly were the answers?

Excellent question, that's been nagging at me too.

I really like space Hitler.......

Well I didn't want to be the first one to say it, but...

[Professor Smooth]

I don't think Getaway summoned the DJD. I think he probably alerted the Galactic Council or some other group, but the DJD intercepted the message and arrived first.

[Metal Vendetta]

Hm, I dunno. That "just do as they say and no-one will get hurt" line he comes out with sounds very close to the deal alt-Brainstorm agreed with the DJD for Overlord...

[Yaya]

So the Sparkflowers are filled with raw Energon. Hm, I wonder if that will become significant and/or symbolic in the next issue or two...

Hmm. I think you may have discovered a way for almost dead massacred corpses to still remain functional after the DJD "lays them to rest" all strewn out on the battlefield.

[Metal Vendetta]

I was thinking more along the lines of a way for Megs to juice himself up to full energy levels, by draining the Energon from the Sparkflowers that were planted to commemorate his victims... I have a sneaking suspicion this is the beginning of Megatron's "To save you all, I must become the monster they all think I am" plotline where he's left with no choice but to re-embrace his old ways

[Yaya]

I was thinking more along the lines of a way for Megs to juice himself up to full energy levels, by draining the Energon from the Sparkflowers that were planted to commemorate his victims... I have a sneaking suspicion this is the beginning of Megatron's "To save you all, I must become the monster they all think I am" plotline where he's left with no choice but to re-embrace his old ways

Yeah. That's a better idea. Very cool. Want to see that. It would be fitting that he returns to extract the fuel even from the monuments of his victims. He's Megatron, after all.

[Computron]

While I sympathize with Getaway he is still wrong. Getaway forgets that Optimus got Megatron to completely renounce Decepticonism and broadcast to everyone. It wasnt a free pass.

Oh, but it is a free pass. I can't really put it any better than the Professor did above, but the point is saying "I'm sorry" does not in any way exonerate Megatron for the mega-crimes he committed. Forgiveness should be left solely to the ones against whom the crimes were committed, not some council of self-righteous Autobot schmucks. That trial was a sham.

But the trial is not over. Its being held in abeyance while Megatron goes on his quest.

But here is the thing. There is a reason we dont let victims hand out justice. There is too much emotion. Its why we put prosecution in the hands of those with cooler heads. (i.e the State's Attorney or Crown Prosecution Service) Yes that leads to results where victims dont get what they want. However what they want is not always what is right or good for society as a whole.

What Getaway wants is to put his own desires over the what the Judicial System has determined is just. He doesnt like the results so he wants to ignore the law. While understandable any functioning civilization cant allow this sort of anarchy.

And that is ignoring that Getaway isnt focusing just on Megatron. He is willing to commit an atrocity to avenge an atrocity. There is no justice in any of this. There is understandable rage but no justice.

And lets not forget that Getaway has been ambushing crew members and altering their memories. That is horrific.

This wasnt a careful winnowing of innocent and guilty. (and who gave Getaway the right to make that determination?) It was a mutiny. It was a violent overthrow because Getaway let his rage control him.

Is getting Swerve, Rewind or Nautica killed really serving the greater good? Or is the hallmark of a sociopath that doesnt care about people and only cares about himself? Remember what he did to Tailgate. Getaway's claim to serving justice is hollow.

[Yaya]

But the trial is not over. Its being held in abeyance while Megatron goes on his quest.

Hmm. Good point. Forgot about that. Still a horrific move by Prime however. Very poor judgement.

But here is the thing. There is a reason we dont let victims hand out justice.

I agree with you, I'm not saying justice should be in the hands of the victims. I'm saying only that forgiveness should be. And until you reminded me that the trial is not yet done, I had thought that was the conclusion, that the courts had forgiven Megatron for his crimes and given him a second chance to make amends (it's been a while since The Trial of Megatron).

And lets not forget that Getaway has been ambushing crew members and altering their memories. That is horrific.

Is getting Swerve, Rewind or Nautica killed really serving the greater good? Or is the hallmark of a sociopath that doesnt care about people and only cares about himself? Remember what he did to Tailgate. Getaway's claim to serving justice is hollow.

Oh, I agree. Getaway isn't absolved of his own crimes either and should pay for them just as Megatron should.

[Hound]

Brainstorm, Ravage and Ten are so boned

[Yaya]

It should be a rule, in every continuity: "Ravage shall not die".

[bumblemusprime]

He's not Space Hitler. Hitler may have believed in a strong centralized state, but he also believed that all the world's problems would be solved by killing off Communists and Jews. He's Space Stalin, which is a lot scarier, because Space Stalin maintained power for a reason--he was able to manipulate fear and xenophobia, he destabilizing other countries to make his takeover easier, and he maintained a long war, usually by proxy, against a monolithic enemy.

As painful as this is to say, MTMTE #50 reflects, to some degree, Not-RID #50, which I actually read. Optimus believes in honoring due process, but he also tends to see other races as less enabled than the Transformers. I'm sure there are a lot of people who would throw away due process--and its silly loopholes, like the one Megatron took advantage of--in order to see justice done to Megatron.

Megs has exerted a magnetic force over the main cast of the LL, the "Megatron fan club," in the same way Stalin had a cult of personality. Not sure whether I am with Getaway or with Optimus.

[Metal Vendetta]

It should be a rule, in every continuity: "Ravage shall not die".

Hm. What's Ravage's alt-mode these days? Have we seen him transform lately? He can't still be a cassette, can he?

[Professor Smooth]

Brainstorm, Ravage and Ten are so boned

Not sure about Ten. He's shown in the second story, which (I think) takes place after the main story. Plus, they need to reveal that he's actually a reformatted Roller, so his story may not be done.

[Hound]

Brainstorm, Ravage and Ten are so boned

Not sure about Ten. He's shown in the second story, which (I think) takes place after the main story. Plus, they need to reveal that he's actually a reformatted Roller, so his story may not be done.

I think the story was set in the past, and it was present-day Getaway watching his former friends

[Yaya]

I think the story was set in the past, and it was present-day Getaway watching his former friends

That's how I took it too.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

So if you eat the flowers, or if space stalin eats the flowers then he would be normal megatron right.

Surely this bunch could take on the djd anyway?
Megatron, rowdy roddy piper, magnus, cyclonus and power punch etc... That's not exactly a weak group is it, is thunder clash with them?

[Metal Vendetta]

Some notes from last night's writer's commentary with J-Robs

• When Getaway said everyone, he meant everyone. Everyone on the Lost Light knows what the plan is and they're going along with it. Even Thunderclash.
• He doesn't know what Ravage's alt-mode is; he's not sure anyone at IDW does.
• The scene with Velocity and Megatron wasn't written as flirting though he admitted it could be read that way. It wasn't his intention to ship those characters though.
• This is part 1 of 6.
• It's basically going to be Space Robot Zulu, hence Swerve's "Thousands of 'em!" line, and the foreshadowing that they watched Zulu when Bluestreak came on board.
• James Roberts is really, really lovely.
• Papa Snarl is ageing in reverse.