In which I appear to slag off the military.

[Professor Smooth]

Today is Memorial Day in the US, so my FB wall is cluttered with flags and eagles and dress blues and combinations of one of those three superimposed over one of the others.

A running theme is "thank the military who sacrificed for our freedoms" and...I drew a blank. When has the military ever fought for the freedoms of Americans?

Revolutionary War? That wasn't really the military, was it?
Civil War? Well, yeah. But there's a lot of asterisks on that one?
All the wars where the government annexed land to become part of the US? I guess...
World War II: Not so much *Americans'* freedom, was it?
Korea? Vietnam? Iraq? Iraq? Afghanistan? Not even a little.

I get the use of the military. And I get remembering and honoring the people who gave their lives in the service of their country.

But saying that Americans owe all (or most) of the freedoms they enjoy to the armed forces seems demonstrably untrue. And worse, it seems intended to just blow smoke up the asses of the people whose memory you're supposed to be honoring. Which appears, to me at least, more disrespectful than anything.

[bumblemusprime]

America has a suspicious lack of Protester's Remembrance Days.

But yeah, honor the self-sacrifice but don't pretend it was always in the service of a greater good. I'm with you.

[Professor Smooth]

I'd also like it remembered that a LOT of fallen American soldiers didn't sign up for service. They were drafted and faced with stiff punishments if they didn't go and fight whoever the government told them to.

Which opens up a whole other can of worms, no?

[Sunyavadin]

I just see such things as a massive disrespect to the poor sods who are needlessly slaughtered on a regular basis for the sole purpose of enriching the bastards who then go on to use them as a distraction from what massive dicks they are. Of course, there's an optimal number of them that said bastards WANT to die, not too many (a la Vietnam), but enough to have the media going "What heroes, defending their country from a bunch of guys living in caves with no food, thirty year old weapons, but an abundance of *insert exploitable commodity", instead of talking about the bastards responsible for getting them killed.
It's really quite sickening.

[Computron]

I understand the critique, I really do, but the military isn't to blame. (In a broad meta sense.) The military goes where ordered and if those young lives are wasted they are wasted because a politician made a mistake. (Intentional or otherwise.)

Being in the military, particularly as an enlisted soldier is not a happy fun time experience. Your body takes a beating, your relationships suffer and at the end of the day you may take a bullet because someone can't talk out their differences.

If for no other reason I think it is more than ok to have a day or two set aside as a remembrance for those individuals who, despite plenty of really good reasons to not join the military, do it anyways.

And yes, our wars have not had a good track record. But at the same time the military does a lot more than bomb people. Every year the armed forces of many countries do ridiculous amounts of disaster relief, humanitarian services and aid efforts. It's not as sexy as watching an F-22 or a Typhoon jet around, but it's just as demanding.

Don't get me wrong. I don't think Memorial Day should be used to justify our wars, but as a day to reflect, I think it is quite appropriate.

For the record though, people who post giant crying Eagles on Facebook should probably have their account deleted and a copy of The People's History of the United States sent to them, but baby steps first.

[Kaylee]

giant crying Eagles

Do people do that? Yikes! Are the eagles at least eating apple pie, holding a Bible and an AK47, driving a humvee past a McDonalds and giving a native American the finger/claw?

Probably still better than the UK equivalent- a bulldog wearing a Union flag hat, a copy of The Mail under its arm, with its back turned to ¼ millennium of imperialism and exploitation, and kicking a migrant worker whilst recording the football on Sky+...

[Computron]

giant crying Eagles

Do people do that? Yikes! Are the eagles at least eating apple pie, holding a Bible and an AK47, driving a humvee past a McDonalds and giving a native American the finger/claw?

Probably still better than the UK equivalent- a bulldog wearing a Union flag hat, a copy of The Mail under its arm, with its back turned to ¼ millennium of imperialism and exploitation, and kicking a migrant worker whilst recording the football on Sky+...

Blast, you've made me hungry for apple pie...

But yes, the crying eagle pictures are real, though to be fair they've become ubiquitous enough that when you see one you assume parody first and sincerity second.

[Kaylee]

Mmm... apples

[Professor Smooth]

This can only go poorly for me. I hope somebody can explain why I'm wrong. But, before I go any further, I want to say that honoring those who died in the service of the country is an important thing. It's just all the other tacked on crap that gets under my skin.

I understand the critique, I really do, but the military isn't to blame. (In a broad meta sense.) The military goes where ordered and if those young lives are wasted they are wasted because a politician made a mistake. (Intentional or otherwise.)

See...that's kind of my issue. The whole "go where ordered" thing isn't, by definition, heroic. Pretty much without exception. And I'm gonna tell you why.

Going back to the days of the draft, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, etc. Those drafted weren't necessarily "brave young people, eager to serve their country". They were "regular young people who were told to go and do what the government says to do (up to and including killing people and destroying homes) or else you are going to be severely punished."

I don't think I'm overstating this when I say that, at times, the choice was literally between "go to some foreign country and kill the people we tell you do" and "go to jail for a good long time."

And for what? After WWII, to "prevent the spread of communism" was the order of the day. That's a good reason for sending unwilling people to fight, kill, and die? That sounds an awful lot like the trumped up "they hate our freedoms" bull**** that became popular after 9/11.

I had a whole bunch of friends join the military (Navy) after high school. They went because of family tradition and to get money for college. Then 9/11 happened.

By about 2003, though, it was pretty clear that everything that we'd been told about the reasons for going to war in Iraq and Afghanistan was complete horse crap. So, if you joined the military after about 2003, then I question your judgement. The US has been using its military not in the service of "protecting freedom" but, let's face it, for the interests of the associates of the politicians. I have trouble mustering sympathy for people who die or get hurt in the military when they joined knowing full well what the deal was.

Being in the military, particularly as an enlisted soldier is not a happy fun time experience. Your body takes a beating, your relationships suffer and at the end of the day you may take a bullet because someone can't talk out their differences.

Again, this upsets me. Every single time I hear about a family torn apart because a soldier was killed or injured, I all-but scream WHAT THE HELL WERE YOU DOING BEING A SOLDIER WHEN YOU HAVE A GODDAMN FAMILY TO SUPPORT?!?!

Hell, when I got married, one of the FIRST things I did was look for a job that offered more stability.

Again. It's 2013. We know what the score is. We know that the American military isn't "protecting the freedoms" of ANYBODY, let alone those of people IN America. You have a family to support? DO. A. DIFFERENT. JOB. It's arrogant, irresponsible, and just plain selfish to do otherwise.

Cops and Firefighters have dangerous jobs, but they are needed to help protect Americans at home, every day. Soldiers, doing what they do half the world away, are not doing nearly as much to keep people safe.

If for no other reason I think it is more than ok to have a day or two set aside as a remembrance for those individuals who, despite plenty of really good reasons to not join the military, do it anyways.

And yes, our wars have not had a good track record. But at the same time the military does a lot more than bomb people. Every year the armed forces of many countries do ridiculous amounts of disaster relief, humanitarian services and aid efforts. It's not as sexy as watching an F-22 or a Typhoon jet around, but it's just as demanding.

Don't get me wrong. I don't think Memorial Day should be used to justify our wars, but as a day to reflect, I think it is quite appropriate.

For the record though, people who post giant crying Eagles on Facebook should probably have their account deleted and a copy of The People's History of the United States sent to them, but baby steps first.

Once again, I ask that you don't get me wrong. I understand that the military does more than kill people. But let's face it, it's not the "military disaster relief" folks that are celebrated on Memorial Day. No. It's the "people who went over to other countries and died while killing the people we told them to kill!" And pretending otherwise is dishonest.

On Memorial Day, people claim to be remembering those who "died while protecting our freedoms" while really only paying lip service to the people who died, gun in hand.

[Computron]

See...that's kind of my issue. The whole "go where ordered" thing isn't, by definition, heroic. Pretty much without exception. And I'm gonna tell you why.

*snip*

I understand your point. I disagree however. The common thread running through your argument is that of people joining for the wrong reasons or fighting the wrong wars.

I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that Vietnam and other conflicts were fought for awful reasons and that terrible tragedies occurred there and elsewhere. (As an aside, the Jesuits at my High School invited this guy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Thompson,_Jr. to speak to us about true heroism in the face of pretty much outright evil.)

In addition, to be clear, those individuals who perpetrate such evil acts are wholly responsible for their actions. However where I depart is to end the line of culpability at that point. The true tragedy, and the impetus in my mind for Memorial Day, are to honor those who did the right thing or held on to their humanity by protecting each other. In my mind, honoring those individuals does not, and should not, mean any sort of endorsement of the political reasons to go to war, or those wars themselves.

Again, this upsets me. Every single time I hear about a family torn apart because a soldier was killed or injured, I all-but scream WHAT THE HELL WERE YOU DOING BEING A SOLDIER WHEN YOU HAVE A GODDAMN FAMILY TO SUPPORT?!?!

Sometimes it's not that simple. There are plenty of dangerous jobs that have nothing to do with the military. (From firefighters, to park rangers, to construction to epidemiologists) If anything having a family enhances the humanity of the soldier. I dread to think of a military without any connection to civilian life.

Again. It's 2013. We know what the score is. We know that the American military isn't "protecting the freedoms" of ANYBODY, let alone those of people IN America.

I don't believe you can simply ignore all the humanitarian work that goes on as part of the military. I mean you yourself were in Japan during the Tsunami I presume? The U.S. Navy aided in relief efforts there. The same is true in Haiti and so many other areas of the world. Imagine if the military hadn't arrived in Haiti. I doubt local gang leaders would have put freedom and human rights first.

I'm not trying whitewash anything mind you, but on the same token you have to be careful not to ignore everything that isn't Iraq/Afghanistan/Bush related.

You have a family to support? DO. A. DIFFERENT. JOB. It's arrogant, irresponsible, and just plain selfish to do otherwise.

And sometimes it is the only option they have. It's no secret that people join the military because there are no other options given their background, training and experience. Many join so that they can get the money to then go back to school in order to get one of those safe jobs. To flip this on its head, it is a bit arrogant to say that joining the military is a selfish choice. For some it may be, but given the difficulties and sacrifice required I'd put joining the military as way down the list of selfish occupations.

My Mom lives in North Carolina and as a result I've been by Camp Lejeune on several occasions. For those that don't know, it's pretty much our largest U.S. Marine base. If it wasn't for sense of duty or patriotism there is no way you could convince anyone to earn below minimum wage to live in beat up housing, in the hot and humid North Carolina sun, while carrying 50-70 pounds of gear and then go share a toilet with dozens of other people. It's a stretch to call that profession selfish.

Cops and Firefighters have dangerous jobs, but they are needed to help protect Americans at home, every day. Soldiers, doing what they do half the world away, are not doing nearly as much to keep people safe.

I disagree. When the National Guard is deployed at home following a disaster, that is a direct, concrete application of military force to keep people safe.

Say what you will about how the wars were prosecuted, but when we initially invaded Afghanistan to go after Al-Qaeda, that was a direct and concrete application of military force to keep people safe. (Now obviously things went...awry, but the initial impetus was proper.)

Then of course there is the SK/NK border. On the north you have probably the most chaotic regime imaginable and the south you have a lot of civilians in harm's way. American and SK troops patrol a border that is in a state of war to protect them. That is no cakewalk. Soldiers still die on that border, both U.S. and South Korean. I think protecting S.K. civilians is a noble duty.

Once again, I ask that you don't get me wrong. I understand that the military does more than kill people. But let's face it, it's not the "military disaster relief" folks that are celebrated on Memorial Day. No. It's the "people who went over to other countries and died while killing the people we told them to kill!" And pretending otherwise is dishonest.

I agree and disagree. To some people it's about that. For others it is about an intensely personal loss.

http://www.hurryupharry.org/wp-content/ ... -grave.jpg

Think of what that image represents. Unity. Sacrifice. Tolerance. Loss. Duty. Are these not things worth of respect?

Not to be overly melodramatic, but so long as one person treats Memorial Day as a day to honor that loss, it is worth it. We can all mourn the loss of a person without having to validate the reason for that loss.

On Memorial Day, people claim to be remembering those who "died while protecting our freedoms" while really only paying lip service to the people who died, gun in hand.

Oh I absolutely agree. People who put a yellow ribbon magnet on their car trunk and think that is "Honoring those in Uniform" are clearly in need of correction.

However I think it is a mistake to state that because some or many people have that attitude that the whole day is not worth having.

It's like Christmas or Easter. Yes some people treat it as a day to celebrate materialism or have a bunch of painted eggs go bad in the sun. That doesn't mean we just jettison everything. There are still important lessons in those days that we cherish, even if you aren't a Christian. (Charity, love, giving, forgiveness, family etc)

To avoid a Euro/American-Centric viewpoint replace those holidays with Kwanzaa or Arbor Day or whatever. My point remains the same.