Hoisted Upon Their Own Petards!

[bumblemusprime]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 0120404317

An undercover FBI agent preaches violent jihad to Muslim "friends," trying to discover terrorists. Said Muslims take out restraining order against him. Other humiliating incidents ensue, making agent and FBI look silly. And so on.

Okay, who on this site works for the FBI?

[Kaylee]

I work for the Federal Bureau of Rebis.

And the gay mafia.

They are difficult priorities to juggle but I cope

[Yaya]

You would think the role of an FBI informant would be to police mosques in search of rogue elements, not encourage the development of rogue elements.

I mean, I can understand searching for brainwashed individuals, but to actually do the brainwashing? How does that contribute to a safer society again?

To be honest, I have no problem with the FBI policing mosques and using informants. But to bait people via entrapment? Moreover, if they are going to send in someone, for God's sake, send someone who at least has a good knowledge of what Islam is and what Islamic terms like "jihad" actually mean. For example, jihad means "to struggle", and there are many types of jihad, the greatest being jihad against the self and temptation. If an imam uses the term jihad in this context, if the informant is ignorant, he might misunderstand what's being said and ruin some poor Muslim for the rest of his life.

That's what I'm afraid of when I hear about these stories. Not that they are actually in the mosque with me (hey, they might actually learn something), but they might not understand what exactly is being said.

[Kaylee]

You would think the role of an FBI informant would be to police mosques in search of rogue elements, not encourage the development of rogue elements.

I mean, I can understand searching for brainwashed individuals, but to actually do the brainwashing? How does that contribute to a safer society again?

Just what a potential revolutionary might say!

*Stares at Yaya through a pair of high powered binoculars, the wrong way round*

[Guest]

I work for the Federal Bureau of Rebis.

If I might translate: 'federal' meaning 'combined,' 'bureau' meaning 'desk' and 'work' meaning 'encourage entropy'

Basically, Karl is the reason my desk is falling apart.

You would think the role of an FBI informant would be to police mosques in search of rogue elements, not encourage the development of rogue elements.

I mean, I can understand searching for brainwashed individuals, but to actually do the brainwashing? How does that contribute to a safer society again?

You know the economy is really in trouble when the government starts cutting out the middleman in terrorism.

[Metal Vendetta]

For example, jihad means "to struggle", and there are many types of jihad, the greatest being jihad against the self and temptation. If an imam uses the term jihad in this context, if the informant is ignorant, he might misunderstand what's being said and ruin some poor Muslim for the rest of his life.

Can muslims not come up with a better word for "self-improvement"? You know, one that doesn't have the same exact pronunciation and spelling as "destroy all infidels in a holy war"?

It would save a lot of time and hassle, methinks.

[Best First]

Ambiguous terminology in religion has never caused any issues though, has it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70IAwHTzrHI

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah.

While it takes the mick, it does raise the, to me, valid, point that any all knowing all powerful god would be fully knowledgable about any possible misinterpritation of their scripture and the negative results and therefore must actually want this to happen, otherwise when they issued their initial messages through whatever prophets they saw fit they would have done so in less ambiguous terms.

[Yaya]

All things, seemingly good and seemingly bad, are from God. If His intentions were to make this heaven on Earth, then surely the Prophet, peace be upon him, would himself not have been severely tested and tried with calamity after calamity.

If he didn't get a free ride, why would other Muslims?

[Metal Vendetta]

any all knowing all powerful god would be fully knowledgable about any possible misinterpritation of their scripture and the negative results and therefore must actually want this to happen, otherwise when they issued their initial messages through whatever prophets they saw fit they would have done so in less ambiguous terms

You'd think that being all-powerful, he'd do away with the illiterate prophets altogether and blast his message into the side of a mountain where no-one would be able to ignore it.

It's almost as if the whole thing is a ridiculous fiction.

Aaaaaaaah.

[Best First]

All things, seemingly good and seemingly bad, are from God. If His intentions were to make this heaven on Earth, then surely the Prophet, peace be upon him, would himself not have been severely tested and tried with calamity after calamity.

If he didn't get a free ride, why would other Muslims?

That, to me, doesn't seem to be the obvious question.

[bumblemusprime]

You know, that word is a long way removed from the cultural context in which it was introduced. The majority of moderate Muslims are interpreting "jihad" as a primarily personal struggle these days, jiving it with their rejection of violent fundamentalism. Do you really expect two billion people to throw the fundamental tenet of "struggle" out with Bin Laden's bathwater?

I doubt that Muhammed thought of jihad in a way that is as divorced from violent struggle as most Muslims I know, and I would like to see Muslims be more critical of many tenets that are accepted or justified in the name of Muhammed's revelation. But in many cases (like mine) a religious organization so permeates your life and your own struggle for faith that reinterpretation, not rejection, is the only bearable choice, lest you otherwise lose friends and family and turn your life to sh*t. Islam isn't going away and neither is Mormonism, and they'll only change from the inside out.

[Best First]

Seems sensible to ask reasonable questions of reasonable Muslims* then, dun't it?

*i'd like to stress that this reference is in relation to JaJa's views on his religion and not on his views on Transformers comics which are clearly insane

[Brendocon]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4467CI4y0M

[Yaya]

You know, that word is a long way removed from the cultural context in which it was introduced. The majority of moderate Muslims are interpreting "jihad" as a primarily personal struggle these days, jiving it with their rejection of violent fundamentalism. Do you really expect two billion people to throw the fundamental tenet of "struggle" out with Bin Laden's bathwater?

I doubt that Muhammed thought of jihad in a way that is as divorced from violent struggle as most Muslims I know, and I would like to see Muslims be more critical of many tenets that are accepted or justified in the name of Muhammed's revelation. But in many cases (like mine) a religious organization so permeates your life and your own struggle for faith that reinterpretation, not rejection, is the only bearable choice, lest you otherwise lose friends and family and turn your life to sh*t. Islam isn't going away and neither is Mormonism, and they'll only change from the inside out.

Why would I want to alter or be critical of something that I believe, in it's purest form, has made me a much better person, to myself, to my family, to my friends, to my neighbors, to strangers, to you guys, to the poor, etc. than I otherwise would have been?

You might disagree with my views and my beliefs. But I can guarantee you one thing, what you see is what you get. You will know where I stand. And there is a comfort that comes in surrounding yourself with people like that. Islam has made me such a person. It is not something of my own doing, something innate in me. Far from it. I truly believe that if I did not have Islam, I would be a total jackass, selfish and pompous to the core. I would give sway to that "me, me!" voice that creeps up every so often.

Not to say I'm some kind of saint. I'm far from that too. I make mistakes, mistakes that I will someday be held accountable for.

But it is because of my faith why I make that extra effort, at least, to not wrong or harm anyone, even if I disagree with them. Do I fall short? Sure, many times. I'm Muslim, but I'm human too. But I do my best.

[Kaylee]

Being pompous isn't so bad. Although I tend to think of myself as more smug than anything.

[Best First]

So, and i'm not trying to be sly or anything in asking this, people who do all that without a faith are more and not less impressive right?

[Guest]

I truly believe that if I did not have Islam, I would be a total jackass, selfish and pompous to the core. I would give sway to that "me, me!" voice that creeps up every so often.

...

But it is because of my faith why I make that extra effort, at least, to not wrong or harm anyone, even if I disagree with them.

Gosh.

This may sound old-fashioned, but where I come from, we wouldn't call that faith, we'd call that manners.

[Jack Cade]

Not to gang up on you again, Yaya, but ...

Why would I want to alter or be critical of something that I believe, in it's purest form, has made me a much better person, to myself, to my family, to my friends, to my neighbors, to strangers, to you guys, to the poor, etc. than I otherwise would have been?

When it comes to Transformers, aren't we always talking about how constructive criticism improves the product? It strikes me that religions do evolve, and have to in order to survive. It doesn't mean that they don't sometimes to the right job, some of the time, already.

[Yaya]

So, and i'm not trying to be sly or anything in asking this, people who do all that without a faith are more and not less impressive right?

I'm speaking about myself only, here. Not making any generalizations.

But in answer to your question, I would certainly call it very impressive, whether one has a faith or not. Some people have naturally good dispositions and inclinations. And some need to be steered in that way.

This may sound old-fashioned, but where I come from, we wouldn't call that faith, we'd call that manners.

As would I. As I say above, being truthful, honest, and fair is an admirable quality in any setting. All I'm saying is that I feel my faith makes me so and likely many like me. Not everyone has natural angelic qualities or an honorable bend. There are many people who, without guidance or education, go astray.

When it comes to Transformers, aren't we always talking about how constructive criticism improves the product? It strikes me that religions do evolve, and have to in order to survive. It doesn't mean that they don't sometimes to the right job, some of the time, already.

Transformers is fictional entertainment. Religion, for me anyway, is about truth, why I'm here on this planet, and what I'm supposed to do. Some things are lighthearted fun and some things are dead serious issues.
I do not approach discussions about Transformers or anything else for that matter like I would God and my relationship to Him.

[Optimus Prime Rib]

Transformers arent real?


Why?

[Metal Vendetta]

Personally I see far more value in "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings" than Islam's central tenet of submisson to Allah. With its tagline of being "the religion of peace", it does end up sounding a teensy bit like "Peace through tyranny" as well.

[Yaya]

Comparing Islam to Decepticons. Nice.

[Metal Vendetta]

Yeah, sorry about that, it's a bit of an unfair comparison.

I like the Decepticons, and some of them have a sense of humour.

[Best First]

in JaJa's defence, your joke was a bit lacking

[Metal Vendetta]

I'm not going to push the point, I was just trying to illustrate how "lighthearted fictional entertainment" can sometimes carry a more instructive message than the "dead serious truth", particularly with regards to concepts such as freedom. Then again, I just spent the past month rewatching The Prisoner, which IMO carries a far greater and more important political message than any of the religions offers.

[bumblemusprime]

Yeah, sorry about that, it's a bit of an unfair comparison.

I like the Decepticons, and some of them have a sense of humour.

As I recall, Emvee has a Decepticon tattoo, so it might be a compliment.

[saysadie]

which IMO carries a far greater and more important political message than any of the religions offers.

Bite your tongue.

Pastafarianism.

[Brendocon]

Then again, I just spent the past month rewatching The Prisoner, which IMO carries a far greater and more important political message than any of the religions offers.

God is secretly you and if you try to run the giant white blob will get you.

Now that's philosophy.

[Metal Vendetta]

Bite your tongue.

Pastafarianism.

A fair point, though the Gospel according our Prophet Bobby Henderson (PBUH) tells us we shouldn't preach our religion, lest we get mistaken for all the other religious dicks out there

[Guest]

A fair point, though the Gospel according our Prophet Bobby Henderson (PBUH) tells us we shouldn't preach our religion, lest we get mistaken for all the other religious dicks out there

Prophet Bobby uhhh.... Henderson?