HD-DVD looks like it's finally on the way out...

Post by **Kaylee** » Sun Feb 17, 2008 1:24 pm

http://blog.wired.com/gadgets/2008/02/h ... th-ma.html

So, for those who are interested, the newest TF movie won't be far off in Bluray.

Brendocon · Post by **Brendocon** » Sun Feb 17, 2008 3:08 pm

Shame. I hate to see Sony win any format war. Well, almost. Also preferred HD for the whole backwards compatible thing.

Ho hum. Anything that stops half the packaging being devoted to garish colours which reduces the blurb to crap one line synopses.

Have we all seen this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=friS4OOc ... re=related

Dead Head · Post by **Dead Head** » Sun Feb 17, 2008 6:44 pm

Brendocon wrote:Shame. I hate to see Sony win any format war.

A blanket opposition to one corporation's technologies seems rather fanboyish (Micro$haft iz evul).

I work in a huge multinational tech company, and from what I've seen, each one's primary goal is (naturally) making as much money as possible, and consideration for the consumers is a low (nay, non-existant) priority (despite company PR to the contrary).

Predabot · Post by **Predabot** » Sun Feb 17, 2008 8:22 pm

Bah...

I do not relish the thought of Sony owning a tech that will become so big..

And the whole region-free thing about HD-DVD REALLY, and I mean REALLY had it going as an excellent format for me.

Damn greedy bastards and their regions...

Brendocon · Post by **Brendocon** » Sun Feb 17, 2008 9:03 pm

Dead Head wrote:
Brendocon wrote:Shame. I hate to see Sony win any format war.
A blanket opposition to one corporation's technologies seems rather fanboyish (Micro$haft iz evul).

Congratulations for not reading the next two words in my post.

And also for missing the glibness of the entire thing. Which I've come to expect from you anyway.

Dead Head · Post by **Dead Head** » Sun Feb 17, 2008 10:50 pm

Brendocon wrote: Congratulations for not reading the next two words in my post.

Thanks indeed, but I did.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 12:28 am

Predabot wrote:Bah... I do not relish the thought of Sony owning a tech that will become so big..

And the whole region-free thing about HD-DVD REALLY, and I mean REALLY had it going as an excellent format for me.

Damn greedy bastards and their regions...

You are aware, I suppose, that the whole regions thing came about due to fundamental technical differences in the televisual technologies in use in various parts of the world, which similarly had to be addressed in the DVD production at the time. For example, the USA used NTSC, UK used PAL and France used SECAM. All of which are different methods of generating an image on a CRT screen, and with different mains supplies.

Nowadays, most of TVs, etc. are designed to be able to be used in different countries, so regions are no longer as important.

Dead Head · Post by **Dead Head** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 12:44 am

Rebis wrote:
Predabot wrote:Bah... I do not relish the thought of Sony owning a tech that will become so big..

And the whole region-free thing about HD-DVD REALLY, and I mean REALLY had it going as an excellent format for me.

Damn greedy bastards and their regions...
You are aware, I suppose, that the whole regions thing came about due to fundamental technical differences in the televisual technologies in use in various parts of the world, which similarly had to be addressed in the DVD production at the time. For example, the USA used NTSC, UK used PAL and France used SECAM. All of which are different methods of generating an image on a CRT screen, and with different mains supplies.

Nowadays, most of TVs, etc. are designed to be able to be used in different countries, so regions are no longer as important.

I thought the PAL/NTSC thing was (despite the tv standards barrier) a red herring when it came to the question of region locking. I thought it was to do with slicing up the market for pricing reasons.

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 11:15 am

One of the region locking things about BR is the need to use an HDMI cable to watch BR, this allows the disc creator to include extra software encryption. 1, to stop copying and 2. to lock down regions.

U know what amazes me, that HD-DVD didnt win. why?

Well, you can modify an existing DVD plant to produce HD-DVD, where as BR requires a completely new manufacturing plant to be built. So as u can imagine, theres a cost difference.

In terms of quality both formats were equal with BR allowing for more storage space on the disc - which, as of yet, has never been a problem for HD-DVD.

ie, all movies currently on HD release fit on a single HD-DVD, including special features. so in consumer terms, there is no benifit.

In theroy, a max sized BR disc (unlikely to be seen due to cost) could fit all 3 Lord of the Ring movies onto its digital surface but in reality its been show that the consumer prefers to have seperate discs for each movie. so again, its not like HD-DVD would have been at a disadvatage.

More likely for BR winning the format war. is Sony inclusion of its BR in the PS3. It simply couldnt afford for BR to go the way of Betamax, it would have sounded the death knell for the PS3 instantly.

Sony execs have spent the last year hurridly going around hollywood, and speaking with all the big TV and movie studios in an attempt to get them to sign upto BR, with conversation going pretty much somthing like this.

"Sign up to BR, or our PS3 will fail, and Sony wont like you lot anymore!!"

So, in the End, the giant company that is Sony, with its industry connections via Sony Music and Pictures got its own way, no surprise.

Still, at least I can finnaly get on and start building a HD-DVD, erm BR collection.

Oh, in Korea, that just started trialing, super HD! yes, thats right, a Format above the 1080p we currently tout in the west as the 'real HD' res.
Samsung predict that within the next 15 years, the average TV size will be 120 inchs, and thus, you will require more than 1080p to get a 1 to 1 pixel map... 50inch at 1080p is about 1 to 1.

So, BR, in the next 15 years, maybe, or maybe it will be SUPER BLUE RAY!

Cathy_Quinn · Post by **Cathy_Quinn** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 12:53 pm

Brendocon wrote:Have we all seen this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=friS4OOc ... re=related

Your link seems to be dead matey, any chance of a summary?

I feel Bluray was always the superior option (though I see your point Impactor) but now fear this may make my Xbox 360 even harder to sell...incidentally if anybody is interested in purchasing one PM me

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 1:17 pm

Why would it make your 360 harder to sell, it doesnt use HD-DVD as a format.

On the subject of media, you can now download HD films via Xbox live, if u look at the model for MP3's, I think that not to long from now we wont even be using discs.

Predabot · Post by **Predabot** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 2:14 pm

Rebis wrote:You are aware, I suppose, that the whole regions thing came about due to fundamental technical differences in the televisual technologies in use in various parts of the world, which similarly had to be addressed in the DVD production at the time. For example, the USA used NTSC, UK used PAL and France used SECAM. All of which are different methods of generating an image on a CRT screen, and with different mains supplies.

I'm quite aware of the different ways of drawing lines on the telly that we had all come to pick and chose.... ( In my eyes PAL was the perfect middle-road, IMHO)

Nowadays, most of TVs, etc. are designed to be able to be used in different countries, so regions are no longer as important.

And I am also, in PERTICULAR aware of this... Wich is the basis of my rant.

This is nothing but greed... It's technically nothing but nonsense at this point.

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 2:21 pm

well, one of the reasons they have country encoding is due to different laws of clasification.

For example, whilst us Brits might find Little Britain funny, in the USA upto 60% of the show was deemed to fruity, and removed!

o, different countries need the ability to stop you buying a DVD online from country A, and watching it in country B.

Cathy_Quinn · Post by **Cathy_Quinn** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 3:26 pm

Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:Why would it make your 360 harder to sell, it doesnt use HD-DVD as a format.

Purely because the Blu Ray add on for 360 is still in the planning stage - HD DVD add on drive already available. Was thinking people might prefer to shell out the extra cash for a PS3 as it has built in Blu Ray player rather than buy a secondhand 360 and then have to buy the add-on for Blu Ray. There is also talk of a new 360 with built in Blu Ray which would further devalue my poor ickle Core System.

Also for the record, I am British and I hate Little Britain.

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 4:35 pm

But its all at a cost.

The two new 360's planned this year do not have a BR player. and if they did, they would never be used for games, only to watch films. but the system would cost more than your core pack.

The reason the 360 sells well is partialy because of its price point, you dont have to pay for the BR drive, unlike the PS3, where you have no choice.

By the summer, a new 360 (codenamed Valhala) will be here, which will have solved all the problems with old 360's overheating, and cost less etc...

That, im sure will devalue your old core system no end but id keep hold of it, why?
Mainly because MS hopes to take out of circulation all old 360's and replace them valhala units as they break down, so id keep hold of yours untill it stops working and replace it with a new system for free.

Expect the 360 premium packs to be reduced to around £175 this summer, which means, if u want a BR, then the PS3 will cost u a further £125.
And if the 360 has a BR add-on at £100?... interesting times.

Also, for the record, I love Little Britain but that wasnt the point I was making....

Cathy_Quinn · Post by **Cathy_Quinn** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 6:40 pm

Heehee I didn't mean to imply you were making a generalisation about all Brits loving Little Britain, it's just that...well,I hate it. And Catherine Tate too. But variety is the spice of life, non?

I see your point but unfortunately my 360 has already experienced the red ring of doom and been sent back to me twice with a letter claiming it had been fixed but on closer inspection very much still broken. I've requested a replacement but they're not obliged to give me one if they claim they can fix it. Plus I could use the money and as Karl has a PS3 now and I have a PSP it seems extravagant to keep the 360 too. Additionally, there's no way of guaranteeing a new model will fix all the old bugs and not have any new ones - Microsoft claimed the Elite system would not overheat but it still does, just at a slower rate.

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 8:49 am

furry muff - some elite units are ok, they use a smaller CPU, whilst others, and there is no way to tell, use the old CPU, the new,new,new 360 uses an all in one CPU and GPU, and is only 45nm, which should reduce the heat problem almost exponetially!

plus I hear its going to look different and stuff...

Interesting article in EDGE this month about the future of MS and Xbox, they have a strong user base installed now but will people adopt another MS console after 360... it had better be 100% reliable...

Cathy_Quinn · Post by **Cathy_Quinn** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 10:32 am

No kidding, I know I will think twice after all the issues mine has had. 100% reliability a must

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 12:04 pm

on the plus side, I would like to think that the next xbox probably will be the most reliable bit of kit ever built.

My predictions for the next consoles... and later this year I expect to hear about MS next machine, maybe even rumors by E3...

BR player
1 TB hard drive
Wireless internet
16 core CPU @ 3 gHz
Multi Core GPU
Physics Chip
2-4GB Ram, in the 1066Mhz range
HDMI output
Motion controllers?

more of the same I suppose... the HD size is going to be really important. Downloading Games, movies and other stuff is surely the way forward. So a big HD is going to be really usefull.

speaking of which, time to chuck a 1.5TB drive in my PC...

Post by **spiderfrommars** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 6:46 pm

I know a chap (owner of a couple of video shops) who posted a blog on the HDDVD/BR thing, and feels pretty strongly about it.

[composite word including 'f*ck'] Blu-ray.
[composite word including 'f*ck'] it. [composite word including 'f*ck'] [composite word including 'f*ck'] [composite word including 'f*ck'] stupid ******* blu-ray up it's worthless arse. So, the press have been going wild about Blu-ray winning the 'format war' and HD-DVD bowing out gracefully. They're doing this to convince you that Blu-Ray is the 'next generation' of DVD, trying to make you think that standard DVD will become defunct like the audiocassette and as the world goes 'digital', we'll all be using blu-ray in months or years to come.

WE WON'T.

Let me be emphatic about this. It's is a bridging format, a gimmick, a way for the studios to try to resell their back catalogue to you one mroe time before everything is downloadable through an itunes movie equaivalent service.

I shall illustate this for you. In music, we had...

VINYL (analogue) - CASSETTE (convenient analogue) - CD (digital) - MP3 (convenient digital)

in film....

FILM REELS (analogue) - VIDEO (convenient analogue) - DVD (digital) -

the next *generation* is CONVENIENT DIGITAL - which obviously is download, a digital file to go on to portable mediums like ipods.

Now, had I included in the above not just generations, but formats, I would have included such clunkers as 'Videodisc', 'laserdisc' (because everyone wants an LP sized film disc that needs turning over halfway through the film), 'SACD'. Do you remember SACD? Super Audio CD. About 10 years ago, there was a format war between SACD and DVD Audio - both were higher quality music formats than CD. SACD won the format war, but does anybody care now? No, 10 years on, we still use CD as our format of choice and have opted for mp3s for convenience.

BLU-RAY IS THE SACD OF FILM.

Yes, it's better quality but you know what? DVD is really good quality!!! You'd need a TV the size of a house to really justify needing Blu-Ray quality. The next generation of film is download. Which, obviously you can do now but a fast, clean, legal method of delivery such as itunes has yet to be implemented. It could be implemented very easily, you know why it hasn't been? Because the studios are hoping to fleece you one last time with Blu Ray.

The irony of digital development in music is that mp3s - fast becoming the favoured format for consumption - are of noticably lower quality than cds. The sound quality difference is vast. But we don't care because most songs transcend technical specifications. As do films. DVD is amazing quality and it's enough. Many of us even download films online which are really **** quality but we'll forego quality for the ease of acquisition and storage.

We will not be stocking Blu-Ray. I was talking to the manager of Blockbuster a couple of days ago and she was telling me that not only is Blu Ray rotting on the shelves, the only people who do take it out are either people who own PS3s or idiots who can't fathom the idea of a dvd which doesnt work in their dvd player.

I'm sure Blocky, in their blind desperation to stay current and relevant will endure with the format and if you want the latest Martin Lawrence/Jason Statham action comedy with kicking and blowing up in a format vastly superior to the technology you'll actually be watching it on, then by all means get your bum over to the big blue corporate whorehouse.

If you want to see a good film and not be a materialistic wally, you know where to come.

Dead Head · Post by **Dead Head** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 8:05 pm

That talk is full of baloney. Some examples:

trying to make you think that standard DVD will become defunct

No, hi-def hardware players are essentially fully backwards compatible with DVD (yes, that other DRM/region-crippled technology). Not to mention CDs, and various audio and video codecs thereon. I've not read anywhere where companies suggest joe sixpack's current DVD collection becomes an unplayable dodo now that there's a suplementary 'premium' disc format on the market.

You'd need a TV the size of a house to really justify needing Blu-Ray quality.

No, a larger TV can help, but the difference is very noticable even without a behemoth display. Also, for playback on an up-close display such as a computer lcd screen, that argument becomes incredibly weak. Additionally, the move to progressive scanning is not an issue of TV size.

The next generation of film is download.

Not for a while yet though. Yes, it is possible (and more likely as broadband speed and availability increases). Pay-to-play streaming and across-the-wire authentication each time you want to play your download are likely in this sense. Content owners want to maximize their control and profits. Recurring revenue from the digital stream is 'the future', in the eyes of many corporations.

Personally, I prefer one-time licenses (as we currently 'enjoy' with physical CD/DVD/HDDVD/Blu-ray media, and unencumbered MP3/FLAC/OGG and so forth).

Because the studios are hoping to fleece you one last time with Blu Ray.

Studios have always tried to 'fleece' the masses. Blu-ray is no exception. I hope this person acknowledged HD-DVD is no exception too (though I doubt that). On the other hand, there is a wee something to be said for rebuying a film/album in an improved or expanded re-release. Again, the choice to 'double dip' is in the hands of the consumer - they can accept or decline as they wish.

Toshiba are not 'friends to the public', though some people may wish to believe it. They're just like Sony, Microsoft, Apple et al - about making money and benefitting their shareholders. No big deal.

Post by **Kaylee** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 10:06 am

Bluray will be the next betamax. Snap.
The PS3 will fail then so will Bluray. Snap.
Digital downloads will kill Bluray anyway.
Sooner or later someone will have to say 'well done Sony, you may or may not be the lesser of two evils but you played this one well.'
There's nothing 'wrong' with either format IMO and both were trying to do the exact same thing, so quite why one was so beloved by some quarters I've no idea. The choice between Sony and Microsoft is more akin to choosing between a poke in the left eye or a poke in the right eye.

I'm going to go on record and say I do not believe digital downloads will catch on like MP3. Firstly because the main reason people download music is to play it on the go, you can't realistically watch a film on the go on your phone or iPod because the screen size is too small and battery life is too poor. It's not an option for most people unless you have a very expensive portable media player. Also there is something to be said for 'possessing' something you like- personally I'd like to have a physical copy of a film I love rather than an invisible copy which Microsoft or Apple can disable at the flicker of a router. Finally the backbone is not in place for high-speed hi-definition downloads. Internet connections can only go as fast as the fibreoptic backbones and there are limits to that. We're currently enjoying the benefit of huge investments made in those backbones before the .COM bubble burst, which is why speed seems to be increasing.
That means that downloads will have to be compressed and that will always mean a (hopefully minimal) loss in quality. Apple apparently are developing a very high quality compression but I remain unconvinced that you can take 16GB of data and turn it into something you can stream over the common broadband connection (baring in mind that varies in speed across North America and Europe between 1MBPS to 16MPBS).
There is definitely a market for them in terms of disposeable rentals, people who fancy watching something but don't particularly want to own it. The market won't be as huge for nextgen DVD by a long stretch, but it is there are I feel very viable.

So quite where this ridiculous amount of vitriol comes for I have no idea. Sony played and won and digital downloads are not the be-all-and-end-all of home media IMO for the reasons above.

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 2:01 pm

Hmm, im the opposite, digital film downloads seem like the future to me.

In korea, they have 100Mbit broardband and they distrubute movies across them. Xbox Live has recently started the service where u can download HD movies, old and new, and on my 8meg BB line it doesnt take long.
What i like is,
A. I dont have to go to blockbuster to rent the movie
B. I dont face the anoyance if the movie is already out on rent.

Im not sure that people do require a physical, tangible version of media any more either. look at Mp3's, people used to collect CD's / Records etc.. who does that notw old DJ's ?

I dont need to own a box, my house is already full of other peoples advertising, I dont need the world to keep producing plastic CD's either and carboard boxes.

I can simply download the media, and be done with it.

10 years from now I predict that with much faster internet and stupidly big hard drives all media will be exported digitaly. its only logicall to think that its the future of distribution.
Anywhere, anytime...

Obfleur · Post by **Obfleur** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 2:06 pm

I want my CD's and DVD's

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 2:09 pm

Digital distribution is already here thanks to iTunes, its the way of the future!

Apple own you by the way. not MS... dont get sucked in!

Cathy_Quinn · Post by **Cathy_Quinn** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 2:20 pm

I agree with the opinion that digital movie downloads are unlikely to catch on. There's a reason why music players keep getting smaller and TVs keep getting bigger

We all know that mp3 lessens music quality in order to condense the file, but we tolerate it for convenience. Can anyone honestly say they'd enjoy a grainy, muffled viewing of, say, Lord of the Rings on a screen the size of a large postage stamp? And if you're going to watch it on a larger screen what's so wrong with a DVD? Fortunately downloading music will not affect the industry of live music, but the ability to download movies as soon as they're finished would kill the movie premiere, the cinema and the good old fashioned rental movie night with friends. Now I don't agree with the price increases at the cinema or the fortune they charge for food and drinks, but I would nonetheless miss it as a social institution. Aside from eating out it is the main social outlet for teens and adults who wish to partake in an activity that doesn't involve alcohol and is much more affordable than, say, the Theatre or a live sporting event.

Dead Head · Post by **Dead Head** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 2:45 pm

Cathy_Quinn wrote:We all know that mp3 lessens music quality in order to condense the file, but we tolerate it for convenience.

There's less and less reason to put up with the failings of the mp3 format and other lossy encodes. Lossless codecs with equivalent range to audio CDs are widely available, and the ever-increasing size of solid-state and platter drives keeps lessening the need to compress song files so much.

Cathy_Quinn wrote:Fortunately downloading music will not affect the industry of live music

But it does. One influence on current live music tickets is the rampant digital (perfect copy) piracy of music, an effect unlikely to go away. Sometimes I wonder if the model of commercial music might approach the way it is in China, where intellectual property of musicians is essentially ignored, and artists have to play live and tour to generate an income. The studio work becomes the 'taster' for the live gigs (i.e. where punters 'have' to pay to get the unique benefit of the performance).

Of course if that model became prevalent over here, you would not see artists like Kate Bush have any financial success (given her essentially non-touring non-live-playing status).

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 2:45 pm

Digital movie downloads are in HD, they are not grainy, or reduced in quality in anyway shape or form.
Its on Xbox Live and Apple TV right now! check it out.
And in another sense, its already on Sky Movies - you press the red button, wham instant HD movie. its only a very small step to record that perma to a hard drive for your collection.

And, as long as an MP3 is encoded at 44Khz, then your ears cannot tell the difference, as your hearing spectrum isnt that sensitive.

Seriously, Xbox, the new Apple TV system in America, Korea, Japan, they are all starting to distribute movies in a digital format, just like MP3's.
Its all out there, 10 years from now, physical media will be a thing of the past.

This is where the industry is taking us, this is clearly and logically where technolagy is taking us.
Its already exists, Hard drive are already over 1TB (thats about 100 HD movies) and cost bugger all.
Media centers, Giant TVs (Average TV size by 2012 will be 120inchs) downloadable content is the biggest money maker in the world right now.

Lets adress some other points.

Whats wrong with DVD?

A TV larger than 24 inchs will be stretching a DVD images pixel ration. its akin to blowing up a Jpeg. the image needs to be pre-processed and upscaled to fit the screen.
its becomes blurry and grainy. hence the need for HD images.
50Inch 1080p TV are now available for under £1000, this is considered the disposable income price point for TV's.

No one is talking about killing off the live music scene or the cinema, its all about distribution.
No one is suggesting that you can download a movie upon cinema release, its still controlled by the media company.

Dead Head · Post by **Dead Head** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 2:54 pm

Impactor returns 2.0 wrote: Giant TVs (Average TV size by 2012 will be 120inchs)

I find that hard to believe. There'll be bigger sizes available than 120 (which I know already exist), for sure, but the average won't be that figure.

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 3:04 pm

that should read 2015 sorry, but thats what the TV industry expects ... panazonic and phillips both produce 120 inch sets now you know...