So, Muhammad is NOT a Teddy Bear?

BB Shockwave · Post by **BB Shockwave** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 7:52 pm

Apparently, naming your teddy bear for the prophet is enough to get 15 days prison and get evicted from Sudan.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7112929.stm

I'm going to be more careful and not call Armada Unicron "Allah" or Movie Frenzy as "Shiva" jokingly, some crackpot religion might get offended.

Truly, Monty Python was foretelling the future...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGkX-sY1W7U

Really, muslims are going too far with such things... while religion and state was separated some centuries ago in Europe, I guess countries like Sudan or Iran still need to do that. And talk about over-reaction... I doubt a catholic priest would have had the same reaction if someone would have named their teddy bear after Jesus. I mean, people name their kids Jesus in South America with the church's blessings... I guess if you are a muslim you cannot use the prophet's name? Muhammad Ali will flee in terror if he hears of this...

Brendocon · Post by **Brendocon** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 8:05 pm

My first reaction to the story was "you're having a laugh". But when I learnt where it was I was all "ah, well, yeah... in that case, she maybe should have been a bit more careful."

All it is is a cultural misunderstanding. Human names aren't given to objects, is basically what it comes down to. Especially not a holy name. It's not a deliberate attempt to cause offence, as it seems to have been interpreted by some of the more radical elements. It's just a... blip. A miscalculation.

If she'd known it was a big deal, she likely wouldn't have done it. I say likely because I think certain speed limits round here are stupid, so I ignore the law. But then, I know what I'm doing and fully understand what'll happen if caught.

Everybody put the bear down, take its name away and we'll chalk it up as the learning curve.

Metal Vendetta · Post by **Metal Vendetta** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:27 pm

I was gonna start a topic about this, but thought it would be cliche. Anyway, now we're here...

Don't they have a genocide going on at the moment? More important things to worry about perhaps?

They are not doing themsleves a heap of favours right now, are they?

BB Shockwave · Post by **BB Shockwave** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:38 pm

The thing that found the weirdest part is, the teacher let the kids choose names for the bear and then let them vote for it. So, technically, she isn't to blame for their choice...

Granted, she should have known better, especially after the parents complained.

The sad thing is, the whole stuff has been overblown by the media - this could have remained a small incident, but the news-channels spread the word, resulting in a lynching mob to appear near the prison where she's held. Thankfully they couldn't kill her, much to the changrin of the scandal-hungry media.

Metal Vendetta · Post by **Metal Vendetta** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:43 pm

Yeah, I don't understand why the kids haven't been arrested too...after all they were the ones doing the naming.

Post by **Kaylee** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 12:03 am

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/commen ... 970926.ece

Makes some good points imo.

Metal Vendetta · Post by **Metal Vendetta** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 2:51 am

Not a bad summary of the situation.

...but instead incendiary literature was circulated in Khartoum and mass demonstrations were planned...

speaks volumes, in the same way that the cartoon protests didn´t emerge until six months after the event, following a concerted and co-ordinated leafletting campaign in which the cartoons were augmented by additional images that were far more offensive to Mohammed than anything originally published in Denmark.

I love freedom of speech and I love insulting religions, especially those that get so upset about it. When my phone was stolen by an Algerian, and I had to field his calls for a couple of weeks after I got my number back I took great pleasure in informing the callers that "Mohammed sucks Allah's cock." I'm only really sorry that they didn't speak English and had no idea what I was on about.

The best point that MacIntyre makes is how the left have tied themselves in knots over this. I consider myself extremely left-wing, and if I can stand up and say "**** you" to these insane bigots, why are our politicians having such trouble? Because they fear reprisals from the muslim community at home? Newsflash: they've already tried to bomb us, what, three times now? The moderate muslims have already condemned the Sudanese and the others hate us anyway. I think we should make a stand and let these stupid ****s know that we won't be intimidated by their bull****.

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 1:35 pm

I love the rptoestors outside the police station that are calling for her execution!

Mohammed would be so proud im sure, here is a women, teaching children how to speak english, u know, to help them out in life, and some ppl want her dead.

What kind of ****** up religon doesnt teach people common sense. Is this what people like Mohammed wanted.

Men, women and children killing each other over really pointless things, I thought killing in generall was bad? - At least I know that, and im not following some fairy gods.

Post by **Best First** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 2:29 pm

Muslim council of great britain are totally against it - i'd say they are more representative of Islam than a handful of protesters...

yay the news.

Leatherneck · Post by **Leatherneck** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 6:00 pm

Best First wrote:Muslim council of great britain are totally against it - i'd say they are more representative of Islam than a handful of protesters...

yay the news.

Probably more representative of British muslims, but the protests in the Sudan were/are being organized by religious leaders...

Yaya · Post by **Yaya** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 11:47 pm

This is ridiculous.

First, I'm not a scholar of Islam, but surely such a thing would be considered a minor infraction, something at most worthy of a "please refrain from this, as it could be construed as being disrespectful" statement. I mean how about a warning at least?

Secondly, that teacher probably had no ill intentions, and this is most important. The way one approaches someone who may be ignorant of Islamic law should not be the same as someone who is Muslim themselves. In dealing with non-Muslims, this consideration should be given.

Thirdly, there are murderers, thieves, rapists, etc. throughout the world given the name Muhammad. It is why I would never give my own child the name of the Prophet, peace be upon him, because the respect for his name I would consider more important than the blessings that might come by giving this name. So what does one say in the case of these, where such deviants are far worse than innocent teddy bears?

As I say, I'm not an Islamic scholar, and if I said wrong above, God forgive me. God knows best, but from my viewpoint, this has been handled poorly, and given nice fuel to the anti-Islamic pundits.

sprunkner · Post by **sprunkner** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 2:12 am

Bloody hell... Don't make too much of a fuss, though, or they might withhold our Coke! ( http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=3232434 )

Islam is indeed only the tool of a group of corrupt bastards complaining about how the West owes them something while they slaughter their people. However, it seems to make a good tool. Religion is disproportionately susceptible to this kind of thing and Islam in the Third World especially. Yaya, saying it's a minor infraction still sounds crazy; I'm sorry. Just remove yourself from their actions. If it's not the Islam you believe in; if it's a gross misrepresentation, then that's all you have to say. The more you talk about where this fits into the law, the crazier you sound, in all honesty.

I don't think we can separate extremists from the culture around them, which produces and is produced by Islam. But it's a simplification to call extremism Islam. What we need to talk about, rather than creating these binaries of religion good/religion evil or true Islam/false Islam, is how these kinds of thinking can arise out of the system that can also include a way to supposedly reconcile yourself to God.

Yaya · Post by **Yaya** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 3:07 am

sprunkner wrote: Yaya, saying it's a minor infraction still sounds crazy; I'm sorry. Just remove yourself from their actions. If it's not the Islam you believe in; if it's a gross misrepresentation, then that's all you have to say. The more you talk about where this fits into the law, the crazier you sound, in all honesty.

I could care less how crazy I sound.

You will not find me inserting my personal opinion in matters of Islam to reshape it into what I or others feel it should or should not be.

Let me be clear though, I'm not saying it's an infraction. I'm saying I, like most average Muslims, don't know if it is or not, as most of us aren't scholars of Islam (I don't know of any incident involving teddy bears from the time of the Prophet (PBUH)), and that even if it were an infraction, certainly the Prophet taught tolerance in such matters. The extremism of the disciplinary action taken against this women is what bothers me most.

Case in point. Once, a bedouin Arab came to the mosque of the Prophet (PBUH) and in his very presence stooped down to take a crap on the floor, as some Bedouin were apt to do. The companions of the Prophet (PBUH) jumped up and unsheathed their swords aghast, whereupon the Prophet (PBUH) jumped up, stayed their hands, and approached the Bedoiun with kind words and educated him on how this was not proper etiquette and not their way, and that he should relieve himself in the properly assigned areas. He did not jump up, calling for the man's head, like some of these crazed people are in Sudan.

On the other hand, unlike in this case, if any law of a land is already known, and it is intentionally broken, then that person must face the consequences, whether they agree with it or not. For example, stop lights. If I blow one not knowing what it means, I would hope that the cop would show leniency for my not knowing, and give me another chance. However, if I know it's wrong, and do it again, then I should get a ticket, whether I find the rule silly or not.

Metal Vendetta · Post by **Metal Vendetta** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 3:08 am

sprunkner wrote:I don't think we can separate extremists from the culture around them, which produces and is produced by Islam. But it's a simplification to call extremism Islam. What we need to talk about, rather than creating these binaries of religion good/religion evil or true Islam/false Islam, is how these kinds of thinking can arise out of the system that can also include a way to supposedly reconcile yourself to God.

To quote our lord and saviour Richard Dawkins: "I do everything in my power to warn people against faith itself, not just so-called 'extremist' faith. The teachings of 'moderate' religion, though not extremist in themselves, are an open invitation to extremism."

Dead Head · Post by **Dead Head** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 6:42 am

It's just another ploy by right-wing teddy bears to disparage the good name of Islam. Beware the stuffed toy illuminati.

Professor Smooth · Post by **Professor Smooth** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 10:05 am

I really hope that teacher gets home safely. That's all I'm going to say.

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 10:54 am

Two Islamic reps got a chance to meet with the president of Sudan today, and the teachers has been released.

Post by **snarl** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 11:39 am

IIRC, Mo (as I shall refer to him) had sex with kids.

So he probably supports Arsenal.

And that is all I have to say on the matter.

Professor Smooth · Post by **Professor Smooth** » Tue Dec 04, 2007 4:08 am

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/africa/12 ... n.teacher/

Thanks to a Presidential Pardon, the woman is free and scheduled to land at Heathrow Tuesday morning.

Brown said it best, "Common sense has prevailed."

Metal Vendetta · Post by **Metal Vendetta** » Tue Dec 04, 2007 4:19 am

That's good news.

Metal Vendetta · Post by **Metal Vendetta** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:50 am

Just to throw this out there, it occurred to me tonight thinking about this case, that it's not so very long ago that a teenage girl was arrested in Britain for writing bad poetry in praise of jihad and calling herself the "Lyrical Terrorist". Seems that this sort of thing happens on both sides - if you can call them "sides" - and each is as bad as the other. Freedom of speech swings both ways.

Yaya · Post by **Yaya** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 4:23 pm

Metal Vendetta wrote:Just to throw this out there, it occurred to me tonight thinking about this case, that it's not so very long ago that a teenage girl was arrested in Britain for writing bad poetry in praise of jihad and calling herself the "Lyrical Terrorist". Seems that this sort of thing happens on both sides - if you can call them "sides" - and each is as bad as the other. Freedom of speech swings both ways.

Depends on what she meant in her poetry by jihad.

If she was ignorant, and calling for the death of innocents, then I would say this would not fall under the category of free speech. (Again, I think there are limits to freedom of speech).

On the other hand, and more likely, they misinterpreted her. Most Westerners equate jihad with dying in a holy war, but jihad takes many forms, one of the greatest being jihad against one's own self.

BB Shockwave · Post by **BB Shockwave** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 4:29 pm

Metal Vendetta wrote:Just to throw this out there, it occurred to me tonight thinking about this case, that it's not so very long ago that a teenage girl was arrested in Britain for writing bad poetry in praise of jihad and calling herself the "Lyrical Terrorist". Seems that this sort of thing happens on both sides - if you can call them "sides" - and each is as bad as the other. Freedom of speech swings both ways.

Well, a liberal journalist here in Hungary wrote a pretty long and distasteful poem depicting in how many painful ways he'd like to see some prominent right-wing politicians to be killed.... and nothing happened. The liberal media even praised him.

Freedom of speech never really exists for both sides - it exists for the one that currently is in power.

Metal Vendetta · Post by **Metal Vendetta** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 5:01 pm

Yaya wrote:Depends on what she meant in her poetry by jihad.

If she was ignorant, and calling for the death of innocents, then I would say this would not fall under the category of free speech. (Again, I think there are limits to freedom of speech).

Oh the usual - suicide bombers, anti-Israel etc.

Thing is, I don't agree with her stance, but I don't think it should be illegal to write poems about it. Apparently she also had a copy of the al-Qaeda manual...well hell, I've downloaded a translation of it, does that make me a terrorist too?

Yaya · Post by **Yaya** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 7:26 pm

Metal Vendetta wrote:
Yaya wrote:Depends on what she meant in her poetry by jihad.

If she was ignorant, and calling for the death of innocents, then I would say this would not fall under the category of free speech. (Again, I think there are limits to freedom of speech).
Oh the usual - suicide bombers, anti-Israel etc.

Thing is, I don't agree with her stance, but I don't think it should be illegal to write poems about it. Apparently she also had a copy of the al-Qaeda manual...well hell, I've downloaded a translation of it, does that make me a terrorist too?

al-Qaeda manual? Are you serious?

Anyway, dying for a righteous cause is one thing. Killing yourself, and taking other possible innocent lives with you, is anything but righteous. I would say putting such a desire into words should not be promoted. Why? Because it gives others who read such things the wrong idea. We've seen such kinds of influence in the past, even through certain types of music.

(Again, I'm just going by what you said she writes about and would have to read it for myself and form my own opinion).

Metal Vendetta · Post by **Metal Vendetta** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 8:35 pm

Serious. I found a link to a translated copy of "the base" manual, I downloaded it, read it and deleted it. These ****s are attacking my country, I want to know how they think, why they did it. You can be damn sure Blair and Brown have read it, and I bet even Bush has had it explained to him a few times. If it's not illegal for them to read it, why shouldn't I? I've also downloaded the anarchist's cookbook, loads of stuff on how to make bombs and ****. This was a few years back, I don't have any of it any more, though the anarchist's cookbook is probably rattling around on a floppy at home somewhere...which is kind of irrelevant as I don't have a disk drive any more...but the point is I don't think that knowledge itself should be illegal. I'm glad I learned the basics of how to make explosives, pipe bombs etc. because one day (if circumstances drastically deteriorate) I might need to know how to do these things, and I'd rather be able to look after myself than not. Similarly I'm grateful for the limited military training I've received courtesy of the British army. I'm never going to employ the practical stuff in my day-to-day job as a web developer, but one day I might need to.

Here's the links to the "Lyrical Terrorist" case, anyway.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/terrorism/sto ... 26,00.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7084801.stm

I think the case is slightly more justified than arresting a woman for allowing children to name a teddy bear, but not by much. It's verging on thoughtcrime.

Yaya · Post by **Yaya** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:25 pm

Metal Vendetta wrote:Serious. I found a link to a translated copy of "the base" manual, I downloaded it, read it and deleted it. These ****s are attacking my country, I want to know how they think, why they did it. You can be damn sure Blair and Brown have read it, and I bet even Bush has had it explained to him a few times. If it's not illegal for them to read it, why shouldn't I? I've also downloaded the anarchist's cookbook, loads of stuff on how to make bombs and ****. This was a few years back, I don't have any of it any more, though the anarchist's cookbook is probably rattling around on a floppy at home somewhere...which is kind of irrelevant as I don't have a disk drive any more...but the point is I don't think that knowledge itself should be illegal. I'm glad I learned the basics of how to make explosives, pipe bombs etc. because one day (if circumstances drastically deteriorate) I might need to know how to do these things, and I'd rather be able to look after myself than not. Similarly I'm grateful for the limited military training I've received courtesy of the British army. I'm never going to employ the practical stuff in my day-to-day job as a web developer, but one day I might need to.

Here in the states, if I downloaded that manual, I'd be in some detention center right now.

I would also assume that if a guy with the handle "Vendetta" downloads that manual, it would put you on some kind of list now.

Post by **Best First** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 12:37 am

What happens if you sell a teddy bear called Muhammed on eBay?

You make a little prophet.

The Last Autobot · Post by **The Last Autobot** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 1:59 am

I think that the whole problem is that it was a bear.

If the animal were a camel then nothing would have been wrong!

Metal Vendetta · Post by **Metal Vendetta** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 4:58 am

Yaya wrote:Here in the states, if I downloaded that manual, I'd be in some detention center right now.

I would also assume that if a guy with the handle "Vendetta" downloads that manual, it would put you on some kind of list now.

Well I did it from work, so hopefully I've avoided that...though I've just admitted to it in a public forum, so hello GCHQ, the CIA etc. nice of you to join us. I'm probably on a couple of lists anyway - I was quite politically active when I was younger.

I dunno, the point I'm trying to make is that pretty much anyone is a criminal to a lesser or greater degree. Back in London I used to drink with Aaron Bashack (sp? no idea), the self-styled "comedy terrorist" who broke into Buckingham Palace and gatecrashed Prince William's birthday party...but he's a Jewish guy who's not particularly funny anyway, so he's free to go about his business. If he'd been Muslim with an interest in jihadist websites, well, I probably wouldn't have been drinking with him in the first place, not least because he'd still be inside now.

More frightening, I think is this quote from the Beeb about the "lyrical terrorist" case:

Deputy Assistant Commissioner Peter Clarke, head of the Metropolitan Police Counter Terrorism Command wrote:She had the ideology, ability and determination to access and download material, which could have been useful to terrorists. Merely possessing this material is a serious criminal offence.

Sweet, so I've committed a serious criminal offence now. On work time, too.