Smoking in bars
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"We should ban smoking in bars, starting with coffeeshops"
said one of our Christian politicians yesterday.
Our gouvernment is already quite reluctant to ban smoking in restaurants and bars, so now they are going to say: "well, if you are allowed to smoke in coffeeshops, you should be allowed to smoke in other bars as well."
Stupid politicians.
I just want to go out and have a drink without needing a shower and a scrub afterwards... I think we're the only country that is so slow to ban smoking that we may only have a partial ban in 2011.
On a happy note: I'm back, and it's spring.
said one of our Christian politicians yesterday.
Our gouvernment is already quite reluctant to ban smoking in restaurants and bars, so now they are going to say: "well, if you are allowed to smoke in coffeeshops, you should be allowed to smoke in other bars as well."
Stupid politicians.
I just want to go out and have a drink without needing a shower and a scrub afterwards... I think we're the only country that is so slow to ban smoking that we may only have a partial ban in 2011.
On a happy note: I'm back, and it's spring.
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I think that smoking in public should be regulated, though an outright ban is a bit draconian. Respiratory illnesses in Scotland have reportedly risen amongst children because now that people can't smoke in pubs they smoke at home with the kids. I think it would be far fairer to allow certain places to apply for a smoking licence, but ensure that they must have adequate ventilation and air condidtioning - much like they did in the Bhudda Bar we visited in Leiden
I would have waited a ******* eternity for this!!!!
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Impactor returns 2.0, 28th January 2010
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Re: Smoking in bars
Agreed.Eline wrote:
I just want to go out and have a drink without needing a shower and a scrub afterwards...
Roll on July.
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Re: Smoking in bars
double agreed.spiderfrommars wrote:Agreed.Eline wrote:
I just want to go out and have a drink without needing a shower and a scrub afterwards...
Roll on July.
If people are really so desperate for nicotine why can't they imbibe it in a less anti-social way?
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Re: Smoking in bars
Thirded. You are wise, oh blessed elders.Best First wrote:double agreed.spiderfrommars wrote:Agreed.Eline wrote:
I just want to go out and have a drink without needing a shower and a scrub afterwards...
Roll on July.
If people are really so desperate for nicotine why can't they imbibe it in a less anti-social way?
Yo da man Mark!Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:I think they should just ban smoking full stop.
Sod the draconnian act! its a ****** thing that wouldnt be legal if it were invented today.
This makes me think, what do you guys think about Quesadas current ban on ciggies in Marvel? I hadn't even noticed it at all, until some fans started biching about it recently, and I gotta say, I don't miss it at all.
Last edited by Predabot on Thu Mar 15, 2007 3:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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I would not be against outlawing the sale and use of tobacco. I don't smoke, though.
A total ban on smoking would have tons of positive effects. People could, as Eline put it, go to a hangout without needing to scrub down afterwards and have their clothes dry cleaned. The banning of marijuana would be less hypocritical. The view of government would be considerably brighter as they would be tossing away billions of dollars a year in taxes in the interest of human safety. The amount of money spent treating cancer, emphasima, and other lung-related illnesses would drop considerably. The effects of 2nd hand smoke on non-smokers would be eliminated altogether.
Of course, it will never happen. The government is not going to toss away one of their biggest sources of income. Banning smoking entirely would put a TON of people out of work as everyone involved in the growing, harvesting, and selling of tobacco would need to find new jobs.
I put for that it would be worth it. Especially if it was a gradual thing. Don't ban smoking overnight. Announce that, in 5 years, it will be banned entirely. That will give everyone involved ample time to look for new employment. The tobacco industry won't shut down immediately, as they will be able to milk the consumer over those 5 years. In 5 years, people involved with the tobacco industry would be able to go back to school and get a degree to help them along with their post-death-bringing career.
Again, too much money lost to ban it outright, so it will never happen.
A total ban on smoking would have tons of positive effects. People could, as Eline put it, go to a hangout without needing to scrub down afterwards and have their clothes dry cleaned. The banning of marijuana would be less hypocritical. The view of government would be considerably brighter as they would be tossing away billions of dollars a year in taxes in the interest of human safety. The amount of money spent treating cancer, emphasima, and other lung-related illnesses would drop considerably. The effects of 2nd hand smoke on non-smokers would be eliminated altogether.
Of course, it will never happen. The government is not going to toss away one of their biggest sources of income. Banning smoking entirely would put a TON of people out of work as everyone involved in the growing, harvesting, and selling of tobacco would need to find new jobs.
I put for that it would be worth it. Especially if it was a gradual thing. Don't ban smoking overnight. Announce that, in 5 years, it will be banned entirely. That will give everyone involved ample time to look for new employment. The tobacco industry won't shut down immediately, as they will be able to milk the consumer over those 5 years. In 5 years, people involved with the tobacco industry would be able to go back to school and get a degree to help them along with their post-death-bringing career.
Again, too much money lost to ban it outright, so it will never happen.
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Won't ever shut down -- nor will opium fields, distilleries, coffee bean fields, or any other form of drug production.Professor Smooth wrote:The tobacco industry won't shut down immediately
And with the way it's taxed in the UK, making retail sale illegal would actually make cigarettes far cheaper since all of the trade would go to private importers. Long, long history of spivs in this country.
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I am against "Big Brother" telling me what poisons I can or can not put in my own body. This might sound strange coming from a guy who doesn't even drink coffee because it has too much caffeine in it, but it is where I stand. If heroin, cocaine, LSD, or plain ol' alcohol are your choice leisure activities, then so be it. You know what they do to you and you make your choice. As long as you don't do something stupid like go for a nice long drive while you are incapacitated, there's really nobody in a position to complain. Legislating against them is kind of like making suicide illegal. It is a waste of time, energy, money, and manpower. Let people do what they want to themselves as long as they are not hurting other people. Yeah, some people rob people for drug money, but having known people who do the same for FOOD money, I don't see it as such a big deal. If people think that the benefits are worth the risks, then who can argue. Why not legislate against bungee jumping or sky diving while we're talking about outlawing risky (yet fun) activities?
That said, I do not mind (as much) the government telling me what poisons I can not put into other people's bodies. My problems with cigarettes are mostly their effects on NON-smokers.
I do not like having to shell out for dry-cleaning any time I spend more than five minutes in a bar. I do not like having a nice meal ruined by smoke drifting over from the table next to me. I do not like the mental image of children growing up in homes full of smoke. Smoking, for me, is not an issue of personal safety, it's an issue of public safety. If not, it is at least a public nuisance.
If we simply can NOT ban smoking entirely for whatever reason (and it looks like we can't), then how about outlawing it damn-near everwhere? No smoking in your home, outside (the US does not allow drinking in public), or in businesses. Instead, we set up places that exist only for smoking. No food or booze served, nothing that would make the place appeal to anyone but smokers. Charge people 5 bucks to walk in the door. We could call it the Smokatorium. And, once again, Judge Dredd can be way ahead of us.
As for the Marvel smoking-ban, I was against it until Quesada explained it perfectly. The tobacco companies make their products more harmful ON PURPOSE to keep their customers from quitting. They know that they are killing their customers and they do not care. The only reason Marvel characters smoked was to show that they were cool. Smoking is NOT cool. The only reason people THINK its cool is because it has been portrayed as such in the media. Having Marvel characters smoke is basically an advertisement for the big tobacco companies.
After reading that, I agree. Marvel characters are not all role models, but what other purpose does having them smoke serve other than to make them cool? Nick Fury and Wolverine do not need cigarettes or cigars to be cool. They're Nick Fury and Wolverine. There is nothing lost by removing the element of smoking from their characters.
That said, I do not mind (as much) the government telling me what poisons I can not put into other people's bodies. My problems with cigarettes are mostly their effects on NON-smokers.
I do not like having to shell out for dry-cleaning any time I spend more than five minutes in a bar. I do not like having a nice meal ruined by smoke drifting over from the table next to me. I do not like the mental image of children growing up in homes full of smoke. Smoking, for me, is not an issue of personal safety, it's an issue of public safety. If not, it is at least a public nuisance.
If we simply can NOT ban smoking entirely for whatever reason (and it looks like we can't), then how about outlawing it damn-near everwhere? No smoking in your home, outside (the US does not allow drinking in public), or in businesses. Instead, we set up places that exist only for smoking. No food or booze served, nothing that would make the place appeal to anyone but smokers. Charge people 5 bucks to walk in the door. We could call it the Smokatorium. And, once again, Judge Dredd can be way ahead of us.
As for the Marvel smoking-ban, I was against it until Quesada explained it perfectly. The tobacco companies make their products more harmful ON PURPOSE to keep their customers from quitting. They know that they are killing their customers and they do not care. The only reason Marvel characters smoked was to show that they were cool. Smoking is NOT cool. The only reason people THINK its cool is because it has been portrayed as such in the media. Having Marvel characters smoke is basically an advertisement for the big tobacco companies.
After reading that, I agree. Marvel characters are not all role models, but what other purpose does having them smoke serve other than to make them cool? Nick Fury and Wolverine do not need cigarettes or cigars to be cool. They're Nick Fury and Wolverine. There is nothing lost by removing the element of smoking from their characters.
snarl wrote:Just... really... what the **** have [IDW] been taking for the last 2 years?
Brendocon wrote:Yaya's money.
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Sounds like a cool initiative.Aaron Hong wrote:Old but relevant local news.
http://www2.chinadaily.com.cn/english/d ... 339977.htm
But...
...If current smoking patterns continue, it will cause some 10 million deaths each year by 2025," the WHO Web site says.
I'm a bit surprised that no-ones mentioned that Gambit and the Thing used to smoke too, but that they quit for personal reasons prior to the Quesada-era. Mr Grimm is cool, he dun' smoke now that he's livin' with his nephews.
Here, here! You're my hero, dude!Da Smooth One wrote:After reading that, I agree. Marvel characters are not all role models, but what other purpose does having them smoke serve other than to make them cool? Nick Fury and Wolverine do not need cigarettes or cigars to be cool. They're Nick Fury and Wolverine. There is nothing lost by removing the element of smoking from their characters.
Except... I DON'T want to have to pay for idiots that harm themselves with heroine and nicotine! I'm not gonna pay for the care for a guy that's taken so much smack that he's in cardiac-arrest! I'm not gonna pay for a FOOL that's smoken 50 packs a day, and a lung-cancer the size of Kambodia!
It's NOT FAIR for society to pay for these damages!
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"People think it's all about misery and desperation and death and all that sh*te, which is not to be ignored, but what they forget is the pleasure of it. Otherwise we wouldn't do it. After all, we're not f*cking stupid. At least, we're not that f*cking stupid."Professor Smooth wrote: Smoking is NOT cool. The only reason people THINK its cool
You're also into grammatical games -- if a bunch of people think something is cool, it is. That's what "cool" means.
I can think of plenty of arguments for banning tobacco sales, but think it behooves opponents of smoking to stick to the ones that have logic behind them and don't make us look like Predabot.
Yeah, best of luck with that. You might get away with making smoking around minors a criminal offence (which would be quite reasonable, IMO.)No smoking in your home
As far as comics go, Pete Wisdom is a self-destructive prick. It's entirely in-character for him to smoke, as it's in-character for Stark to be an alcoholic. Wolverine isn't going to not smoke or not do anything else except out of consideration for anyone he's with and actually likes, being anti- any authority he doesn't implicitly respect and, lest we forget, (what with regenerating from a brain recently and everything) functionally immortal. Fury is a cypher, the two main trademarks of which are a cigar and an eye-patch.
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Oh no, I completely understand that people enjoy it. However, the fact that their personal enjoyment comes at the cost of other people's enjoyment and health, justifies any public bans on the practice.Denyer wrote:"People think it's all about misery and desperation and death and all that sh*te, which is not to be ignored, but what they forget is the pleasure of it. Otherwise we wouldn't do it. After all, we're not f*cking stupid. At least, we're not that f*cking stupid."Professor Smooth wrote: Smoking is NOT cool. The only reason people THINK its cool
You're also into grammatical games -- if a bunch of people think something is cool, it is. That's what "cool" means.
That's true that if people think it's cool, it's cool, but it's not the act of smoking that's cool. It's the perception of it. I give Marvel credit for explicitly saying that they will not add to that perception.
It's unlikely that any bans on smoking in private residences will ever go into effect. That has no bearing on whether or not they should. There are plenty of laws that should be enacted or retracted, but for whatever reasons (usually money), they won't be.Denyer wrote: I can think of plenty of arguments for banning tobacco sales, but think it behooves opponents of smoking to stick to the ones that have logic behind them and don't make us look like Predabot.
Yeah, best of luck with that. You might get away with making smoking around minors a criminal offence (which would be quite reasonable, IMO.)No smoking in your home
As far as comics go, Pete Wisdom is a self-destructive prick. It's entirely in-character for him to smoke, as it's in-character for Stark to be an alcoholic. Wolverine isn't going to not smoke or not do anything else except out of consideration for anyone he's with and actually likes, being anti- any authority he doesn't implicitly respect and, lest we forget, (what with regenerating from a brain recently and everything) functionally immortal. Fury is a cypher, the two main trademarks of which are a cigar and an eye-patch.
Any depiction of smoking, in Marvel's eyes, can be seen as promoting it. Aside from doing the cliched "character gets lung cancer" story over and over, the only way to sidestep this is to remove it entirely. Maybe it's in character for him to smoke, but he doesn't need to be shown doing it. Hell, it's "in character" for Spider-Man to use the toilet at least once a day, but the writers don't need to show it to the readers.
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You don't wanna pay for "idiots that harm themselves with" drugs.Predabot wrote: Except... I DON'T want to have to pay for idiots that harm themselves with heroine and nicotine! I'm not gonna pay for the care for a guy that's taken so much smack that he's in cardiac-arrest! I'm not gonna pay for a FOOL that's smoken 50 packs a day, and a lung-cancer the size of Kambodia!
It's NOT FAIR for society to pay for these damages!
Fair enough.
What about people who driv around and around a circle, on high speed vehicles (Speedway)?
They take a big risk and they do it voluntarily.
And what about Formula 1 drivers?
Are you willing to pay for their medical bills?
People who are ******* stupid and think they are technical enough to handle a nail gun? Would you pay those guys bills?
And last but not least: those people who have friends over for dinner, and forgets to blow out the candles when they go to sleep and wake up because their face is literally on fire. Are you willing to pay for their medical bills?
Can't believe I'm still here.
Hullo! I'm a smoker and I live in a country where smoking is banned in bars, workplaces etc. It's really not a hassle for me - although I am a very light smoker, admitttedly. I was in favour of the ban, as while I enjoy smoking and have always thought of myself as being as considerate of others as one can get whilst smoking, the less public smoking the better for everyone. As Denyer pointed out, a complete ban would be aces as then I would probably smoke even less and also, when I could be bothered to get ciggies, at current down-the-market prices would end up paying about 2-3 quid less per packet than counter price.
The ban has generally been percived to have been a very positive move, although of course it has brought in its own problems such as increased smoking (and drinking) in the home, every public building having people standing immediately outside the doorways smoking all day every day, increased littering and the general sorts of incidents you get from increasing the number of people (drunk or otherwise) standing on the street instead of inside a pub...Watching every pub along Dumbarton Road empty at half-time when the Old Firm was on one time was pretty, um, 'interesting'. Still very glad we have it though, and I hope everyone who wants one in their country gets one.
It's certainly a positive to have reduced the number of reasons to have a shower after a night out. Although I still find I have a wish to be clean after being out on the lash, and I'm not sure I want to be standing on the tube next to anyone who hasn't had a shower after being out on the piss, tbh.
Hooray for no smoking in eateries! Long overdue.
I could care less about smoking in comics.
Preds, sometimes I don't really feel it was fair for your countrypeeps to have paid for your education, as I'm not entirely certain they got their money's worth.
The ban has generally been percived to have been a very positive move, although of course it has brought in its own problems such as increased smoking (and drinking) in the home, every public building having people standing immediately outside the doorways smoking all day every day, increased littering and the general sorts of incidents you get from increasing the number of people (drunk or otherwise) standing on the street instead of inside a pub...Watching every pub along Dumbarton Road empty at half-time when the Old Firm was on one time was pretty, um, 'interesting'. Still very glad we have it though, and I hope everyone who wants one in their country gets one.
It's certainly a positive to have reduced the number of reasons to have a shower after a night out. Although I still find I have a wish to be clean after being out on the lash, and I'm not sure I want to be standing on the tube next to anyone who hasn't had a shower after being out on the piss, tbh.
Hooray for no smoking in eateries! Long overdue.
I could care less about smoking in comics.
Preds, sometimes I don't really feel it was fair for your countrypeeps to have paid for your education, as I'm not entirely certain they got their money's worth.
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It justifies bans on them doing it around other people who don't want to smoke, not being able to force/pressure people to take employment in an environment that's hazardous to their health, etc.Professor Smooth wrote:Oh no, I completely understand that people enjoy it. However, the fact that their personal enjoyment comes at the cost of other people's enjoyment and health, justifies any public bans on the practice.
"Cool" is entirely perception; these things aren't somehow divisible. The other type of cool relates to temperature.Professor Smooth wrote: it's cool, but it's not the act of smoking that's cool. It's the perception of it.
Then they're idiots on a political correctness kick, and I look forward to their removal of Stark's alcoholism from the canon, any use of violence beyond restraint and all of the super-villains taking up knitting (or taking over the Marvel universe, more likely.)Professor Smooth wrote:Any depiction of smoking, in Marvel's eyes, can be seen as promoting it.
Apathetic, antagonistic or hedonistic people do apathetic, antagonistic and hedonistic things.
Mmm.KingMob wrote:Preds, sometimes I don't really feel it was fair for your countrypeeps to have paid for your education
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Predabots new clothes.
I still don't think it is in any way justified to pay for the care of a person that puts his own personal pleasure completely ahead of everyone and everything else in the world.
That's what a substance-abuser does. Wether it be tobacco, alcohol or heroine, they are costing us all bloody fortions.
I think we all know what the most common reason people are put in hospitals for in France...
Here's pretty much the best contact-information I know, for sending in feedback and once own views on Marvels product, to him.
Newsaramas Joe Fridays readers Interviews
---------------------------------------------------
http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=99093
His E-mail
------------
joe@joequesada.com ( sadly, I could not find his Marvel work-mail, wich truly is a shame, since I think a LOT of us would like to get our hands on that one. )
I dearly, dearly hope you send in a submission to Joe Fridays, and that it will be chosen for use in the Panel.
I still don't think it is in any way justified to pay for the care of a person that puts his own personal pleasure completely ahead of everyone and everything else in the world.
That's what a substance-abuser does. Wether it be tobacco, alcohol or heroine, they are costing us all bloody fortions.
I think we all know what the most common reason people are put in hospitals for in France...
You obviously have strong feelings about this, and I feel you should let Joe Quesada know of this immediately.Denyer wrote:Then they're idiots on a political correctness kick, and I look forward to their removal of Stark's alcoholism from the canon, any use of violence beyond restraint and all of the super-villains taking up knitting (or taking over the Marvel universe, more likely.)Professor Smooth wrote:Any depiction of smoking, in Marvel's eyes, can be seen as promoting it.
Here's pretty much the best contact-information I know, for sending in feedback and once own views on Marvels product, to him.
Newsaramas Joe Fridays readers Interviews
---------------------------------------------------
http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=99093
His E-mail
------------
joe@joequesada.com ( sadly, I could not find his Marvel work-mail, wich truly is a shame, since I think a LOT of us would like to get our hands on that one. )
I dearly, dearly hope you send in a submission to Joe Fridays, and that it will be chosen for use in the Panel.
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Well, if we are going to extrapolate ridiculously in one direction i guess its fair to say based on the above that you're quite keen to see a return to yellow skinned fu manchu style villians? Ooh, that bloody political correctnes eh?Denyer wrote:Then they're idiots on a political correctness kick, and I look forward to their removal of Stark's alcoholism from the canon, any use of violence beyond restraint and all of the super-villains taking up knitting (or taking over the Marvel universe, more likely.)Professor Smooth wrote:Any depiction of smoking, in Marvel's eyes, can be seen as promoting it.
Whether Wolverine smokes or not, as stated, makes little or no difference to the character or stories about them but if not showing generally well liked characters doing something that has a tendancy to kill people means a few less kids take up said habit then that seems a fairly sensible trade off.
Anyway, given a reasonable chunk of Marvel's audience has their purse strings controlled by their parents its probably a business decision more than anything.
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"THE AUTHORITY was a twelve-episode superhero fiction series where the eponymous team fight Fu Manchu, Ming the Merciless and God (dressed up as Cthulhu)." –WEBest First wrote:you're quite keen to see a return to yellow skinned fu manchu style villians?
The "(old) English aristo into devil-worship" (Sandman and many other comics) is quite fertile literary soil as well.
Whether the villains have a skin colour or profile is secondary to plot writing that makes the point that they're bad guys because of that. (Lots of old fiction going on at length about predatory/sinister occidental features and other such guff, etc.) Variety is also good. Setting dictates such as "you can't have any Chinese super-villains in traditional dress" or sure, heroes can be seen to drink, self-harm, lie or brutalise opponents, but you won't see a cigarette, joss-stick or scented candle in our comics" isn't.
So no, I'm not calling for the dropping of Kaizen Gamorra because he's a Mandarin rip-off (and because Mandarin started life as a rip of Fu Manchu and the same folk tale background as enchanted rings in D&D) -- dropping him because he was seen to be conclusively dead and bringing him back cheapens previous storylines, that'd be nice.
Smoking has never been established as an integral part of Logan's character. Wisdom, yes.
Fury, where do we begin --
http://www.nitrocomics.com/Nick_Fury_Shield_Bust.jpg
http://photos1.blogger.com/x/blogger/38 ... lCrash.jpg
http://www.beaucoupkevin.com/images/fury1.jpg
http://www.geocities.jp/hand01jp/Graphics/nick_fury.jpg
http://www.iconian.com/fury/cg2t.gif
http://www.well.com/~cjfish/fury2.jpg
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k36/S ... ams_00.jpg
http://www.twomorrows.com/kirby/media/24furyjack.gif
http://abastafidli.webz.cz/images/hry_punisher/nick.gif
http://www.bookpalace.com/acatalog/NickFuryVsSHIELD.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e ... _weeks.jpg
http://www.steranko.comics.org/comics/m ... ec-ed1.htm
Several tens of thousands of others, and it's telling that that includes official busts. The Marvel Legends toy is sculpted for a cigar, removed by higher-ups. Nextwave's Dirk Anger (parody, by-the-by from a series currently being snapped up by librarians in the US to encourage kids to read) -- yup, cigar. The patch and stoagie are his immediate identity, used to shorthand as well as to satirise the character.
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As ridiculous as a "depiction = automatic promotion" equation. A handful of kids break each other's bones with broom handles because the Turtles have weapons. Most don't, because their parenting hasn't been that incompetent.
Marvel, like the film industry, would be out of options if violence as titillation were restricted; Excalibur go out on the lash, in one of the better moments for their characterisation -- Moira weakening her immune system in the face of the Legacy virus; the introduction of Xavier in Ultimate X-Men has him admitting to mind-raping authors for new reading material because he's impatient... and kids don't have telepathy, but they can certainly rummage through everything because "it's okay if you're curious."
Unless the "good guys" are made to act responsibly as a consistent thing, this is a hypocritical restriction (and one made purely as a PR grab, since few Marvel characters smoke in the first place.)
Marvel, like the film industry, would be out of options if violence as titillation were restricted; Excalibur go out on the lash, in one of the better moments for their characterisation -- Moira weakening her immune system in the face of the Legacy virus; the introduction of Xavier in Ultimate X-Men has him admitting to mind-raping authors for new reading material because he's impatient... and kids don't have telepathy, but they can certainly rummage through everything because "it's okay if you're curious."
Unless the "good guys" are made to act responsibly as a consistent thing, this is a hypocritical restriction (and one made purely as a PR grab, since few Marvel characters smoke in the first place.)
- Predabot
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What made you think that Xavier was mind-raping authors? ( One of the early, maybe #1 or #2 methinks, yes?) To me it seemed as if he simply read their minds while they were writing their novels, hardly mind-rape.
For him, reading other peoples thoughts is like hearing them chant their words, because ussually, unless he blocks them, he keeps hearing people around him without even trying!
For me, mind-rape is more the kind of brainwashing and posthypnotic control that Wolverine has been subjected too, or when Xavier shut down Magnetos mind, turning him into a drewling git.
Jeez... this thread is turning into a comic-geek slugfest..
I love it!
For him, reading other peoples thoughts is like hearing them chant their words, because ussually, unless he blocks them, he keeps hearing people around him without even trying!
For me, mind-rape is more the kind of brainwashing and posthypnotic control that Wolverine has been subjected too, or when Xavier shut down Magnetos mind, turning him into a drewling git.
Jeez... this thread is turning into a comic-geek slugfest..
I love it!