The God Delusion
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- Metal Vendetta
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Remember when those creationists got into Richard Dawkins's house and then tried to trap him with awkwardly-worded questions about evolution into saying something that would support their argument?
He is, it would seem, a bit pissed off about that. So pissed off that he's written a big old book to illustrate - just in case anyone was in any doubt - that he is an atheist, and that atheism is the only position on the subject worth having.
For regular posters on this message board, most of what follows will be pretty familiar - I remember someone brought up the example of Einstein as being religious on here, and my rebuttal at the time is so similar to Dawkins's in the book that I encountered profound deja vu - in fact when this book was first mooted, someone (I think Karl) suggested he might be using Transfans as reference, and it certainly seems that way here. At some point I may write to him, linking some of our archived religious discussions and accuse him of plagiarising my style
Anyway, clicheed as it sounds, everyone should buy this book. I'm halfway through and (although he is admittedly preaching to the converted in my case) there are one or two things that have really stood out as interesting and even funny - a link to this page, for example, http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/GodProof.htm - which contains over 300 proofs of God's existence that demonstate the full range of sloppy logic that religious apologists employ in their reasoning.*
Also hilarious is his tale of a university friend who went into the church and offered as part of his reasons the fact that he and his girlfriend had heard the voice of the devil outside their tent in the middle of the night on a camping trip to Scotland, and it had terrified them both so much that he resolved to give his life to the service of God. When Dawkins recounted the story to friends, two of them who were keen ornithologists burst out laughing, shouting in unison: "Manx Shearwater!" This bird is known around the world in many languages as the "devil bird", because of its unusual cry which many claim sounds exactly like the voice of the devil.
Those of a religious disposition may find some scenes disturbing, but if they can grit their teeth and get around Dawkins's (at times extremely condescending) manner, it's possible that they might be persuaded to re-evaluate their own belief system. Me, I was sold on the fact that it is dedicated to Douglas Adams and carries one of his quotes on the same page: "Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it, too?"
*It's been about an hour since I started typing this post, and I'm still reading these. They are sublime, and I think I have one that they missed, I wonder if I could send it in...[edit] they also list this page right below, which is even funnier: http://www.tektonics.org/guest/300proof.html
He is, it would seem, a bit pissed off about that. So pissed off that he's written a big old book to illustrate - just in case anyone was in any doubt - that he is an atheist, and that atheism is the only position on the subject worth having.
For regular posters on this message board, most of what follows will be pretty familiar - I remember someone brought up the example of Einstein as being religious on here, and my rebuttal at the time is so similar to Dawkins's in the book that I encountered profound deja vu - in fact when this book was first mooted, someone (I think Karl) suggested he might be using Transfans as reference, and it certainly seems that way here. At some point I may write to him, linking some of our archived religious discussions and accuse him of plagiarising my style
Anyway, clicheed as it sounds, everyone should buy this book. I'm halfway through and (although he is admittedly preaching to the converted in my case) there are one or two things that have really stood out as interesting and even funny - a link to this page, for example, http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/GodProof.htm - which contains over 300 proofs of God's existence that demonstate the full range of sloppy logic that religious apologists employ in their reasoning.*
Also hilarious is his tale of a university friend who went into the church and offered as part of his reasons the fact that he and his girlfriend had heard the voice of the devil outside their tent in the middle of the night on a camping trip to Scotland, and it had terrified them both so much that he resolved to give his life to the service of God. When Dawkins recounted the story to friends, two of them who were keen ornithologists burst out laughing, shouting in unison: "Manx Shearwater!" This bird is known around the world in many languages as the "devil bird", because of its unusual cry which many claim sounds exactly like the voice of the devil.
Those of a religious disposition may find some scenes disturbing, but if they can grit their teeth and get around Dawkins's (at times extremely condescending) manner, it's possible that they might be persuaded to re-evaluate their own belief system. Me, I was sold on the fact that it is dedicated to Douglas Adams and carries one of his quotes on the same page: "Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it, too?"
*It's been about an hour since I started typing this post, and I'm still reading these. They are sublime, and I think I have one that they missed, I wonder if I could send it in...[edit] they also list this page right below, which is even funnier: http://www.tektonics.org/guest/300proof.html
I would have waited a ******* eternity for this!!!!
Impactor returns 2.0, 28th January 2010
Impactor returns 2.0, 28th January 2010
Re: The God Delusion
... I'm upto #30. It's my favourite so far.Metal Vendetta wrote:*It's been about an hour since I started typing this post, and I'm still reading these. They are sublime, and I think I have one that they missed, I wonder if I could send it in...
Grrr. Argh.
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on a similar subject - anyone seen the clips from the new Jesus Camp film?
http://www.jesuscampthemovie.com/
Thats so scary and wrong on so many levels...
http://www.jesuscampthemovie.com/
Thats so scary and wrong on so many levels...
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Dang, that's ferking insane, especially when they mentioned the "I want these kids to lay down their lives for the Gospel, because it's the truth".Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:on a similar subject - anyone seen the clips from the new Jesus Camp film?
http://www.jesuscampthemovie.com/
Thats so scary and wrong on so many levels...
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Haven't caught Night Watch yet...This is very similar to the suggestion put forward by the Quirmian philosopher Ventre, who said, "Possibly the gods exist, and possibly they do not. So why not believe in them in any case? If its all true you'll go to a lovely place when you diem and if it isnt then you've lost nothing right?" When he died he woke up in a circle of gods holding nasty-looking sticks and one of them said, "We're going to show you what we think of Mr Clever Dick in these parts...".
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I just wish that these people knew a little bit more about the Bible than they obviously do, then that sentence could run something like:Stormwolf wrote:Dang, that's ferking insane, especially when they mentioned the "I want these kids to lay down their lives for the Gospel, because it's the truth".
"I want these kids to lay down their lives for the Gospel, because out of a number of versions of the story of the life of Jesus the early church picked four versions which are less far-fetched than the others, but all of which borrow heavily from other messiah stories that were around at the time and contain details that can be independently proved to be historically inaccurate and which even contradict each other, but we believe them to be the truth for some reason."
I would have waited a ******* eternity for this!!!!
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Impactor returns 2.0, 28th January 2010
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Nah, the delusion is Atheists thinking that have some kinda upper foot on believers. "Hey, We Don't Believe In A Spiritual Force and Now We Want Everyone To Listen To Us Or We'll Start Shouting For Inequality!!"Best First wrote:or don't care because you aren't caught up in ridiculous delusions.IronHide wrote:Atheism.......man, hope for you're sake you aint wrong.
hmm, which to choose...
Yes, lets insult someone and tell them they're entire lives have been based upon a lie.....surely they wont lash back.
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Yeah, I've seen this preview before.Stormwolf wrote:Dang, that's ferking insane, especially when they mentioned the "I want these kids to lay down their lives for the Gospel, because it's the truth".Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:on a similar subject - anyone seen the clips from the new Jesus Camp film?
http://www.jesuscampthemovie.com/
Thats so scary and wrong on so many levels...
But in a sense, doesn't this whole line of thought, with the whole, "getting kids join in God's army," "There are two kinds of people: those who love Jesus and those who don't," "I want to see kids radically laying down their lives for the Gospel, because excuse me, we have the truth." kind of prove my point that Christian fundamentalism is just as real and dangerous and violent as Muslim fundamentalism?
Best First wrote:I thought we could just meander between making well thought out points, being needlessly immature, provocative and generalist, then veer into caring about constructive debate and make a few valid points, act civil for a bit, then lower the tone again, then act offended when we get called on it, then dictate what it is and isn't worth debating, reinterpret a few of my own posts through a less offensive lens, then jaunt down whatever other path our seemingly volatile mood took us in.
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You mean like... everyone else with any kind of riligous outlook on life?IronHide wrote:Nah, the delusion is Atheists thinking that have some kinda upper foot on believers. "Hey, We Don't Believe In A Spiritual Force and Now We Want Everyone To Listen To Us Or We'll Start Shouting For Inequality!!"Best First wrote:or don't care because you aren't caught up in ridiculous delusions.IronHide wrote:Atheism.......man, hope for you're sake you aint wrong.
hmm, which to choose...
yes, how terribly unique the crimes of the athiest are.
you could always turn the other cheek.Yes, lets insult someone and tell them they're entire lives have been based upon a lie.....surely they wont lash back.
given you have based your entire life on this philosophy, might wanna try actually adhering to it, especially if you want to prove it has some merit and is worthy of something more than derision.
if not it kind of undermines the 'being offended' angle a bit, surely?
Surely the "I hope for the atheists sake that they're right" thing should apply to every faith / lack of?
I mean I can't imagine Teh Vengeful Catholic God being any harder on an athiest than a protestant... if my understanding's right, a non-believer's a non-believer... you don't get points for being nearly right.
I just have visions of Islamic suicide bombers arriving in the afterlife, looking for their thousand virgin reward and being smacked down by St Paul...
Or vice versa.
I could argue that, as an athiest, at least I'm not doing the opposite of God's will because I believe what I'm doing to the be work of another deity... evil actions through misplaced faith are worse than inaction through lack of faith, right?
I mean I can't imagine Teh Vengeful Catholic God being any harder on an athiest than a protestant... if my understanding's right, a non-believer's a non-believer... you don't get points for being nearly right.
I just have visions of Islamic suicide bombers arriving in the afterlife, looking for their thousand virgin reward and being smacked down by St Paul...
Or vice versa.
I could argue that, as an athiest, at least I'm not doing the opposite of God's will because I believe what I'm doing to the be work of another deity... evil actions through misplaced faith are worse than inaction through lack of faith, right?
Grrr. Argh.
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other thing is - if we are wrong, and get ****ed over for it, well god's a scat muncher anyway isn't he?
its not like he is sending out a consistant and credible message that everyone agrees with with a few naysayers is it?
loads of people believe all kinds of different things - either only a % aren't going to get screwed (God's a dick) or God doesn't really care and loves everything and forgives you anyway (doesn't matter what you believe) or God's just silly made up stuff and it doesn't matter anyway.
its not like he is sending out a consistant and credible message that everyone agrees with with a few naysayers is it?
loads of people believe all kinds of different things - either only a % aren't going to get screwed (God's a dick) or God doesn't really care and loves everything and forgives you anyway (doesn't matter what you believe) or God's just silly made up stuff and it doesn't matter anyway.
Let's see, how can I get in on this......
Oh!
Got it:
(Someone please tell me before the blinking red alarm goes off in Dead Head's bedroom, the one where someone types "Muslim" and then he slides down his Batpole and suits up to "fight crime" as he sees it.)
Oh!
Got it:
Can someone tell me where they get this information about "thousand virgins" from? As a Muslim, I have never seen this referenced anywhere.just have visions of Islamic suicide bombers arriving in the afterlife, looking for their thousand virgin reward
(Someone please tell me before the blinking red alarm goes off in Dead Head's bedroom, the one where someone types "Muslim" and then he slides down his Batpole and suits up to "fight crime" as he sees it.)
Last edited by Yaya on Tue Oct 03, 2006 7:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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pssh, c'mon Yaya! You can do better than that! Jesus Camp is RIPE with rebuttal oppertunities, don't chase that negative line about Muslims. It's a red herring.
For example, just take your line:
For example, just take your line:
Put in some fancy references, that the counselors at Jesus Camp would approve of....just have visions of Islamic suicide bombers arriving in the afterlife, looking for their thousand virgin reward
And there you go!just have visions of Christian soldiers of Jesus arriving in the afterlife, getting eternal salvation and love as their reward
Best First wrote:I thought we could just meander between making well thought out points, being needlessly immature, provocative and generalist, then veer into caring about constructive debate and make a few valid points, act civil for a bit, then lower the tone again, then act offended when we get called on it, then dictate what it is and isn't worth debating, reinterpret a few of my own posts through a less offensive lens, then jaunt down whatever other path our seemingly volatile mood took us in.
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Are you sure you are not alt ids made to only create discussion?
Or maybe twin brothers separated at birth?
For me is very simple all of this.
If you are a christian and it somehow makes you a better person then fine.
If you are a muslim and it makes you a better person then fine.
When you use your religion (or anything else) to rationalize how to damage other human beings then thats a real problem.
There is bad people in any place/country/religion/board.
But nevertheless the formula that scares me the most is:
Low IQ + any given religion adherence = PAIN
Or maybe twin brothers separated at birth?
For me is very simple all of this.
If you are a christian and it somehow makes you a better person then fine.
If you are a muslim and it makes you a better person then fine.
When you use your religion (or anything else) to rationalize how to damage other human beings then thats a real problem.
There is bad people in any place/country/religion/board.
But nevertheless the formula that scares me the most is:
Low IQ + any given religion adherence = PAIN
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Crimes? What crimes? Believing is not a crime. You can believe whatever the hell you want, I could care less. The point is that atheists complain that they are 'picked on' because of what they think. Well no **** sherlock, of course there are gonna be fanatics who will go old testament, fire and brimstone on someone and that take it to far. Same goes for the otherside.Best First wrote:
You mean like... everyone else with any kind of riligous outlook on life?
yes, how terribly unique the crimes of the athiest are.
As far as turning the other cheek, good luck with that. Just because I believe in God doesnt mean im gonna be a nice person. "But according to the bible which you base your faith on..." lemme stop you there. I see the bible as a giant story. My faith isn't based solely on the bible or what's written in it. I believe because I CHOOSE to believe.
There's never gonna be a clear right or wrong with this. In the meantime you gotta deal with the fact that over 80% of the world don't agree with you.
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Am I the only one who's digging the sweet Mod on Mod action? Damn, that's hot. :P
You know what else has issues?
My local comic book store.
I have issues with NAMBLA too, but only on the basis that they're a bunch of sexist fags. If there was any justice, there'd be NAMGLA as well.
You know what else has issues?
My local comic book store.
I have issues with NAMBLA too, but only on the basis that they're a bunch of sexist fags. If there was any justice, there'd be NAMGLA as well.
Best First wrote:I thought we could just meander between making well thought out points, being needlessly immature, provocative and generalist, then veer into caring about constructive debate and make a few valid points, act civil for a bit, then lower the tone again, then act offended when we get called on it, then dictate what it is and isn't worth debating, reinterpret a few of my own posts through a less offensive lens, then jaunt down whatever other path our seemingly volatile mood took us in.