Christianity vs. Islam

sprunkner · Post by **sprunkner** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 4:44 am

Cuz it hurts to go without.

Seriously, I've been thinking since my big disillusionment with Mormonism. At the moment, I'm going to church with my in-laws to avoid any conflagrations, though I snuck out to finish Kavalier & Clay last week. Great book. I also offered to make dinner tomorrow, which gives me another excuse to leave early. Ahem.

So, in my view, religions are a lot like tigers. Beautiful, graceful, potentially lethal. And since I used to be one, I've done a lot of thinking and studying on Christianity lately, including Bart Ehrman's fantastic lecture series on the Historical Jesus. In trying to distill a religion down to its bare essence, I find that Christianity seems very concerned with human connectivity. It is all about compassion and forgiveness and a Friend in Jesus. I don't think Jesus really meant to start a new religion so much as criticize the existing form of Judaism, but both Judaism and paganism of the time didn't offer the intense personal connection to God that Christianity, as preached by Paul and the other apostles, did. I think they turned Christ, who was probably just a Jewish prophet-in-the-desert type, into a face for the impersonal God of Judaism. I have noticed that Christianity is also a religion that seperates the spiritual from the typical: render under Caeser that which is Caeser's and God that which is God's. Christianity is open to multiple interpretations and most Christians can live with each other despite theological differences.

Then I've been fascinated by Islam, just cuz I am. I read a couple of Karen Armstrong's books and am now deep in Albert Hourani's, and the sense I get from Islam is that it is not so much a religion about intense personal connection as social creation and management. There is no Caeser and God split, because an ideal Islamic state, administered and ruled by Muslims is as important for Muslims as universal salvation would be for Christians. Muslims have used up a lot of verses talking about how personal God is to them. Sufism is possibly the most beautiful, intricate and meaningful mystic tradition out there. But as far as I see it, the intense connection to God in Islam simply fuels the social concerns of the Islamic world.

So, which do you think would work better? A world of Christians or a world of Muslims? And why?

Professor Smooth · Post by **Professor Smooth** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 4:49 am

That is an incredibly tough question to answer.

sprunkner · Post by **sprunkner** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 4:50 am

I'm awesome that way.

I picked Islam, but I'm not sure why. More on this later.

Professor Smooth · Post by **Professor Smooth** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:00 am

The two religions I hate more than almost anything else and I'm forced to pick between the two. My first choice would be "death" but I don't know if that would be worse than either of the two. I admit it seems a bit melodramatic. Huh. I'll have to sleep on it. I suppose an entire world of Muslims would be peaceful. It would, because of their strict laws, probably suck hardcore (and I'm a male!) An entire world of Christians would probably still be devided into different sects that would eventually begin to hate and war with each other.

Optimus Prime Rib · Post by **Optimus Prime Rib** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 7:26 am

Professor Smooth wrote:An entire world of Christians would probably still be devided into different sects that would eventually begin to hate and war with each other.

because you know, the Muslims never kill each other over differing interpretations of religious text

Professor Smooth · Post by **Professor Smooth** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 1:00 pm

Optimus Prime Rib wrote:
Professor Smooth wrote:An entire world of Christians would probably still be devided into different sects that would eventually begin to hate and war with each other.
because you know, the Muslims never kill each other over differing interpretations of religious text

Yeah, guess the Suni and Shiite thing kinda puts the kibosh on that idea, eh?

Post by **Best First** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 2:00 pm

that raises an interesting point though - which brands of said religion are we talking about?

i mean a world full of the right wing eveangeliclism that aspects of the Republican party pander to would be pretty different to a world full of Church of Englanders, if noting else i suspect that latter would have a lot more tea and cake.

Brendocon · Post by **Brendocon** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 2:08 pm

A world full of any one religion wouldn't work.

There'd be no heretics to persecute and blame things on.

Or to convert.

*knock knock*
"Hello?"
"Hello. We'd like to talk to you about Jesus."
"Oh, I'm already a Christian."
"You are?"
"Yes."
"Oh. Uhm. Okay. Sorry to have bothered you."

Think of all the people who would have to get proper hobbies.

Stormwolf · Post by **Stormwolf** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 2:08 pm

Christian, because:

- Drinking booze would be allowed
- Your wife isn't forced to walk 7 steps behind you
- You can eat pig related meat products
- I'm not all that big on arranged marriages
- Christians won't beat you into a bloody pulp if you want to leave your religion. I've already seen a former Muslim get rushed into the hospital because of it.
- I've got the idea that Christians are a bit more flexible with the rules nowadays. The Islam is a bit too strict.
- Christmas is a fun holiday.
- Praying 5 times a day is a bit too much.
- There's far too many extremist imams around, especially in the Netherlands, dunno how this is in the US/UK.
- I don't want to kill/hurt somebody if they make a cartoon about Mohammed.

Most of it comes from personal observation. I used to go to school with a Maroccan girl who was forced into a arranged marriage with her cousin.

A real pity, she used to be pretty liberal about nearly everything. But now she's married to some borderline crackpot who supports some not so nice views about the west.

Sure, Christianity has some rubbish in it, but it's nowhere near as bad as I've seen so far.

BB Shockwave · Post by **BB Shockwave** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 7:59 pm

You also gotta consider, what kind of a religious guy you're gonna be... there are 'christians' in my church whom I see about twice every year in church, Christmas and Easter.

You can be a christian even if you don't live like on... The pope won't curse you out of the church even if you leave your wife/husband whom you are married to, only punishment is that you can't get the holy communion. Granted, you can always go to a church where the priest doesn't know you... It's not like TF the movie where pics of the folks who bad-mouthed Murphy will be there at the cinema ticket sellers for reference who's allowed and who's not...

I dunno how that is with muslims, as there are practically none here in Hungary. But I think they have much stricter rules.

sprunkner · Post by **sprunkner** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 10:05 pm

Best First wrote:that raises an interesting point though - which brands of said religion are we talking about?

i mean a world full of the right wing eveangeliclism that aspects of the Republican party pander to would be pretty different to a world full of Church of Englanders, if noting else i suspect that latter would have a lot more tea and cake.

I'm thinking we include all brands of the religion in there. So there are heretics in this imaginary world and debates over belief, but they're reduced to Sunni/Shiite or Catholic/Protestant stuff. And existing governments are not done away with in this scenario, either, so a lot of the misogyny present in the Middle Eastern interpretation of Islam would be tempered in the Western countries.

I think I picked Islam because it seems so odd. In reading about Islam, it becomes pretty clear that Muslims are facing an imperative to change, to make their religion mesh more fully with the modern world. This is a difficult thing to do since Islam has always dictated social structure, and generally done a good job. But since Muslims are more passionate about social justice, in general, when living their religion correctly, then I think the world might actually be improved if that energy were channeled correctly.

Metal Vendetta · Post by **Metal Vendetta** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 10:07 pm

On a purely personal level, beer, bacon and foreskins win it every time.

sprunkner · Post by **sprunkner** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 1:40 am

(Mental picture of Beer/Bacon/Foreskin Man wrestling Osama)

Post by **snarl** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 8:13 am

Kumbaya my Lord, kumbaya
Kumbaya my Lord, kumbaya
Kumbaya my Lord, kumbaya
Oh Lord, kumbaya

Someone's singing Lord, kumbaya
Someone's singing Lord, kumbaya
Someone's singing Lord, kumbaya
Oh Lord, kumbayah

Someone's laughing, Lord, kumbaya
Someone's laughing, Lord, kumbaya
Someone's laughing, Lord, kumbaya
Oh Lord, kumbaya

Someone's crying, Lord, kumbaya
Someone's crying, Lord, kumbaya
Someone's crying, Lord, kumbaya
Oh Lord, kumbaya

Someone's praying, Lord, kumbaya
Someone's praying, Lord, kumbaya
Someone's praying, Lord, kumbaya
Oh Lord, kumbaya

Someone's sleeping, Lord, kumbaya
Someone's sleeping, Lord, kumbaya
Someone's sleeping, Lord, kumbaya
Oh Lord, kumbaya
Oh Lord, kumbaya

Eline · Post by **Eline** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 8:32 am

From my limited knowledge, neither seems to be very keen on women who want to do stuff other than conceiving and cooking.

Post by **Best First** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 8:32 am

sprunkner wrote:
Best First wrote:that raises an interesting point though - which brands of said religion are we talking about?

i mean a world full of the right wing eveangeliclism that aspects of the Republican party pander to would be pretty different to a world full of Church of Englanders, if noting else i suspect that latter would have a lot more tea and cake.
I'm thinking we include all brands of the religion in there. So there are heretics in this imaginary world and debates over belief, but they're reduced to Sunni/Shiite or Catholic/Protestant stuff.

is that a reduction? or just a realignment of what people will blow each other up for?

also its all very well being more passionate about social justice but that only presupposes an improvement if you agree withj that group's concept of social justice.

Metal Vendetta · Post by **Metal Vendetta** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 8:36 am

Eline wrote:From my limited knowledge, neither seems to be very keen on women who want to do stuff other than conceiving and cooking.

Quoted for the truth.

Post by **Kaylee** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 10:14 am

Well, I'd service God... but I'd be thinking of Allah...

First double-entendre of the day :3

Predabot · Post by **Predabot** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 11:00 am

I want to get drunk. And I wanna chow down on them little piggies.

Christ-ee-Un.

PS: The view on the change of church after the death of Jesus seems pretty accurate. The big J seems to have had the idea to losely join up everyone in their own personal view of god. Heck, a lot of his friends were ex-hookers, thieves, adulterers and all sorts of 'sinners'.

Seems like a pretty ok chap to me. Wich is why I've always had a problem with Muhammed compared to Jesus or Budha as a person... He spread the religion himself with force! And he married 20 or so girlies?? Wtf??

The Last Autobot · Post by **The Last Autobot** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 5:55 pm

Speaking today and not in the inquisition era?

Christianity all the way.

In a complete muslim world everything would be alla lised. Christians are not so anal retentive to want to control all.

I imagine that in a entire Christian world if you are a not believer, you would be -granted- told to convert.

In the same situation in a muslim world would be believer or dead.

And I wont go to how women are treated either...

Shanti418 · Post by **Shanti418** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 6:50 pm

Karl Lynch wrote:Well, I'd service God... but I'd be thinking of Allah...

First double-entendre of the day :3

Kinda gives a whole new meaning to the term "religious oratory"

Post by **Kaylee** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 7:29 pm

{bows}

Optimus Prime Rib · Post by **Optimus Prime Rib** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 7:56 pm

Karl Lynch wrote:{bows}

Isnt that what got you into this mess in the first place?

Post by **Kaylee** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 7:58 pm

Optimus Prime Rib wrote:
Karl Lynch wrote:{bows}
Isnt that what got you into this mess in the first place?

I've thought about it for a few minutes but still don't understand

Make more sense, damnit! Else I'll get one of the archangels to threaten you with his Star Sabre/Star Shield minicon combo, or whatever it is archangels fight with.

Optimus Prime Rib · Post by **Optimus Prime Rib** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 10:26 pm

Eline wrote:From my limited knowledge, neither seems to be very keen on women who want to do stuff other than conceiving and cooking.

wait.. yall do other stuff?

sprunkner · Post by **sprunkner** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 11:17 pm

Optimus Prime Rib wrote:
Karl Lynch wrote:{bows}
Isnt that what got you into this mess in the first place?

I got it.

Where is Yaya?

Yaya · Post by **Yaya** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:52 am

sprunkner wrote:
Optimus Prime Rib wrote:
Karl Lynch wrote:{bows}
Isnt that what got you into this mess in the first place?
I got it.

Where is Yaya?

Yaya is like a bad jock itch.

He goes away for a while, but get a little dirty, and he comes right back.

In order for one to be Muslim or Christian, it becomes not a matter of which is more convenient or what prohibitions/permission one prefers, but what one believes to be true. Even if you forced someone to behave like Muslim or Christian, they would still not be Christian or Muslim. The actions are not what make one Muslim. It is the intentions of the heart.

Though there is proven practical good even for the atheist in abstinence from alcohol or pork, what good does it do spiritually for one if not done for the pleasure of the Creator? Intention is everything. If you restrict yourself from alcohol or pork for health reasons, it does not make you Muslim. In fact, even if you drink alcohol or eat pork, yet believe in One God and that Muhammad (PBUH) is His final Prophet, you are still Muslim, albeit one who has committed wrong in the Sight of God.

I have already read some fallacies that have been attributed to Islam above that simply aren't true, like arranged marriages being part of the religion and the like. Arranged marriages without consent of the daughter are purely cultural in nature and have no religious backing. In Islam, women can refuse to marry any man shes choose not to. If you want an authentic reference of this from the religious texts, I can give you one.

Most here would not want to go through the trouble of praying five times a day, of restricting sexual pleasures to marriage, of fasting the month of Ramadan. They seem like difficult things, and indeed they are, if not done with the proper intention. If not done for the pleasure of the Creator, how arduous these things would be for me as well.

It is the intention of serving my Creator that facilitates me to perform the duties for which I am commanded. Though there is practical signfiicance in the things I am commanded to do, I don't to them for worldy gain. I do them because I want to, because inside I feel strength and peace in knowing that my Creator will, hopefully, be pleased with me.

In the end, it is for that. For the pleasure of God.

If one doesn't even believe in God, what purpose do the permissions and prohibitions of Islam serve?

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:56 am

what I want to know is why Muslim have more extreamists views, and get all violent and ****?

[composite word including 'f*ck'] sakes, the other day, the pope quotes a ******* book and u have radical muslim group outside the main chucrch in london asking for jesus to go to hell.

why must muslims always get so ******* over the top on anyone thats mentions Allah in the wrong way - its like, ******* calm down!

Why dont the muslim clerics get down there and tell these 'radical' muslim twats to calm the [composite word including 'f*ck'] down.

religon - its so [composite word including 'f*ck'] over the top.

Yaya · Post by **Yaya** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 1:12 am

Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:what I want to know is why Muslim have more extreamists views, and get all violent and ****?

**** sakes, the other day, the pope quotes a ******* book and u have radical muslim group outside the main chucrch in london asking for jesus to go to hell.

why must muslims always get so ******* over the top on anyone thats mentions Allah in the wrong way - its like, ******* calm down!

Why dont the muslim clerics get down there and tell these 'radical' muslim twats to calm the **** down.
.

Because its the Pope.

Here is a man who claims to have a direct communication channel to the Creator, a man billions of people over the world respect and follow, and he makes inaccurate statements regarding a faith that is already misunderstood.

Of course, violence is not the answer here, but as far as I know there has only been peaceful protesting.

I think they should have that right to protest.

To be honest, his words did not surprise me, nor was I moved in any way. These kind of statements have gone on for a long time now. Granted, never from the Pope, but something Muslims should not be so surprised about.

The Last Autobot · Post by **The Last Autobot** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 3:16 am

But if a muslim say something about Jesus do you see the Pope with a pitchfork telling christians to slay the bastard?

I know there is good people in any religion, but somehow I see that muslims tend to be easily more outward violent than christians (at least in this century).

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Christianity vs. Islam

If everyone had to be a Christian or Muslim, what would you be?