Can we have a Religion Forum?

Brendocon · Post by **Brendocon** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 7:10 pm

Every time one topic finishes, somebody just restarts the entire bloody argument again? It's like being caught in a loop...

Give it its own forum, then I won't get misled into thinking there's new posts in GD every time somebody's forced to repeat the same stuff they've said a dozen times in the past just because somebody's being antagonistic or stubborn...

Post by **Kaylee** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 7:16 pm

I know the feeling... it feels tiresome having to say the same things over and over... maybe we could merge the most recent two topics since they're basically the same thing (as I pointed out in there)?

Maybe I could record like 'My Greatest Hits' or something (wouldn't be a very long album...) then just program a spambot to search Transfans periodically and make a randomly generated post in any religious topics.

Shanti418 · Post by **Shanti418** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 7:20 pm

I agree. Although, to play the Devil's Advocate, it isn't always this way. I think it's gotten especially bad because
A. There is extreme global unrest and military action right now.
B. With Bouncalot and Yaya willing to have discussions and promote their viewpoints, it's no longer just a big choir to preach to anymore, no pun intended.

Post by **Kaylee** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 7:25 pm

Shanti418 wrote:I agree. Although, to play the Devil's Advocate, it isn't always this way. I think it's gotten especially bad because
A. There is extreme global unrest and military action right now.
B. With Bouncalot and Yaya willing to have discussions and promote their viewpoints, it's no longer just a big choir to preach to anymore, no pun intended.

Has more to do with the individuals who tend to start the topics, if I may make so bold. We've had huge multilength religious discussions here for years with contributions from many posters, some of which have been extraordinarily long and very in depth.

It is a discussion board I appreciate, but I might suggest to some individuals thay maybe they might want to give it a bit of a rest, for the sake of my poor worn-out fingertips

Or at least if you desperately feel the urge to start a rant or throw accusations around you just tag it onto the last discussion on such things...

Brendocon · Post by **Brendocon** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 7:25 pm

Which is all good and well - opposing viewpoints are good for discussion, especially when presented articulately. But certain people seem to be starting topics just for the sake of being inflammatory, and disregarding the fact that there may already be a relevant discussion going on about the subject.

I've also noticed it's not uncommon for people to start a thread and then just bugger off leaving people to scrap it out, then pop up a couple of weeks later and repeat.

From the perspective of somebody who doesn't give two figs about who wants to believe what, so long as they don't try to impose it on me, it's all pretty ******* annoying to see people having the same damn argument over and over and over and over. It's like a bloody Hot Chip single.

Post by **Kaylee** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 7:26 pm

Brendocon wrote:Which is all good and well - opposing viewpoints are good for discussion, especially when presented articulately. But certain people seem to be starting topics just for the sake of being inflammatory, and disregarding the fact that there may already be a relevant discussion going on about the subject.

I've also noticed it's not uncommon for people to start a thread and then just bugger off leaving people to scrap it out, then pop up a couple of weeks later and repeat.

You're not alone in noticing that, trust me...

saysadie · Post by **saysadie** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 10:27 pm

Brendocon wrote: From the perspective of somebody who doesn't give two figs about who wants to believe what, so long as they don't try to impose it on me, it's all pretty ******* annoying to see people having the same damn argument over and over and over and over.

though I generally avoid religious threads, I have to agree with that, to a degree.

It's just the same stuff over and over again...

Professor Smooth · Post by **Professor Smooth** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 1:25 am

Karl Lynch wrote:I know the feeling... it feels tiresome having to say the same things over and over... maybe we could merge the most recent two topics since they're basically the same thing (as I pointed out in there)?

This is an excellent idea.

inflatable dalek · Post by **inflatable dalek** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 9:27 am

Like Alan Partridge, I believe God is a gas. And anyone who disagrees shall choke on that gas!

sprunkner · Post by **sprunkner** » Sun Aug 06, 2006 2:07 am

Brendocon wrote:Which is all good and well - opposing viewpoints are good for discussion, especially when presented articulately. But certain people seem to be starting topics just for the sake of being inflammatory, and disregarding the fact that there may already be a relevant discussion going on about the subject.

I've also noticed it's not uncommon for people to start a thread and then just bugger off leaving people to scrap it out, then pop up a couple of weeks later and repeat.

From the perspective of somebody who doesn't give two figs about who wants to believe what, so long as they don't try to impose it on me, it's all pretty ******* annoying to see people having the same damn argument over and over and over and over. It's like a bloody Hot Chip single.

Seriously. Most of the religious discussions around here start with someone throwing out uninformed, inflammatory comments. Both believers and non-believers give several pages of carefully constructed, polite but pointed opinions, then someone throws in another uninformed, inflammatory opinion and the whole thing starts over. I really like discussing this stuff. I really like the illuminating facts that come out of these discussions. But the source and the perpetuation of both come from those who often don't listen and don't discuss.

It's not much of a big deal to me since it causes good things, but now there are three or four threads on this page about the same thing. If I want to say something, should I paste into all four threads? Plus, if I say something, how do I know I won't just get: "no, it's actually not that way-- religion starts all problems-- watch the news!" ?

Pissin' Poonani · Post by **Pissin' Poonani** » Sun Aug 06, 2006 10:53 am

Brendocon wrote:Which is all good and well - opposing viewpoints are good for discussion, especially when presented articulately. But certain people seem to be starting topics just for the sake of being inflammatory, and disregarding the fact that there may already be a relevant discussion going on about the subject.

I've also noticed it's not uncommon for people to start a thread and then just bugger off leaving people to scrap it out, then pop up a couple of weeks later and repeat.

From the perspective of somebody who doesn't give two figs about who wants to believe what, so long as they don't try to impose it on me, it's all pretty ******* annoying to see people having the same damn argument over and over and over and over. It's like a bloody Hot Chip single.

I appreciate that this post has been quoted a few times now, but I wanted to say that I fully agree with what Brend has said. It's a volatile subject at the best of times, and it really doesn't make things any better when certain people decide to be deliberately 'difficult'.

I don't have much time for religion, but I do have time for well constructed and informative debate-I've learnt a great deal from these topics but it is incredibly annoying to watch people stamp their feet and act like children because everyone else won't agree with them.

Post by **Best First** » Mon Aug 14, 2006 12:14 pm

well, i'm just going to buck the trend and say i think this is all a bit over cooked.

yes there are 4 religous topics on the front page, which is a bit more than usual, but its still far from a majority or any kind of epidemic and given what's happening in the world at the moment and the fact that religion is a facet of it if anything i'd say if it were otherwise that would be more suprising. No one is forcing anyone to read or respond to these four topics as far as i am aware.

Furthermore each has had different slants to some extent and all of them have raised some interesting perspectives, regardless of whether you agree with them or not. As has been stated our resident fundamentalists have certainly added a new dimension to the discussion. By which i mean of course myself and Emvee.

The notion that certain people are stirring in terms of kicking these topics off isn't really born out when in fact the 4 topics on the front page were all started by different people.

In terms of within the topics yes there are some people who are more constructive than others but again no one is forcing you to respond and its understandable that some people are more erudite than others when it comes to getting their point across and also that such a subject provokes strong emotions.

Finally accusing 'people' of popping up and then dissapearing again - i don't recall being a member of thsi community coming with a minimum post per week limit. People sometimes just have other stuff to do and then come back to topics they are interested in.

I agree there is a logistical issue in terms of responding but that's more a matter of free time and effort surely? I have bowed out a few times because i just don't have the time.

Basically - If you don't care about a subject don't read the topic and don't post in it - no one is forcing you too and if you don't like how someone is posting either complain to a mod directly about particular posts, engage them and prove the superiority of a more constructive approach or, just ignore them and engage with the people who's opinions you are interested in.

if someone posts somthing that adds nothing to the discussion in your eyes, just skip over it.

Conversely if you do feel compelled to respond, well that's really up to you isn't it?

So no, i'm not willing to compartmentalise a subject because some people aren't interested in it.

Legion · Post by **Legion** » Mon Aug 14, 2006 12:17 pm

Best First wrote:So no, i'm not willing to compartmentalise a subject because some people aren't interested in it.

*cough*Cybertron / Energon / Armada / Universe / R.I.D*cough*

Post by **Best First** » Mon Aug 14, 2006 12:19 pm

you eman you don't love RID?

Legion · Post by **Legion** » Mon Aug 14, 2006 5:33 pm

well... love is a very strong word...

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Aug 14, 2006 7:38 pm

Legion wrote:
Best First wrote:So no, i'm not willing to compartmentalise a subject because some people aren't interested in it.
*cough*Cybertron / Energon / Armada / Universe / R.I.D*cough*

An excellent example of the non-compartmentalism in action.

Or would you rather have had it called "All the other TF series"

Shanti418 · Post by **Shanti418** » Mon Aug 14, 2006 8:48 pm

Nonetheless, this IS a TF forum. It makes more sense to have G1....Everything Else...Toys, and one General Discussions.

I mean, if we're going to split up GD, we might as well go Religion/Movies/Music/Football/etc.

Metal Vendetta · Post by **Metal Vendetta** » Mon Aug 14, 2006 9:10 pm

Shanti418 wrote:Nonetheless, this IS a TF forum. It makes more sense to have G1....Everything Else...Toys, and one General Discussions.

I mean, if we're going to split up GD, we might as well go Religion/Movies/Music/Football/etc.

Ooh, can we have a "badly-titled-not-obviously-about-football" topics forum please?

Brendocon · Post by **Brendocon** » Mon Aug 14, 2006 9:12 pm

I wasn't literally calling for a new forum... just wanting a bit of a "grr argh" about the fact that people keep ignoring existing discussions to start up an inflammatory topic that:

a) they barely contribute to themselves beyond the initial statement
b) descends into people arguing for the sake of arguing, and never really goes anywhere

It's like if I were to go into G1 and start a "Boy, isn't the comic utter ****" topic. Wait until it's hit three pages, then start another one going "This is why the comic's really over rated" one in which everybody just starts up again going over the same stuff. One one hand it's utterly unnecessary, and on the other it shows little but disrespect towards the people who've just spent three pages discussing it.

It's not because religion doesn't interest me - it's because it's quite a disconcerting trend that I wanted to have a bit of a hissy fit about.

I miss Ishin.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Aug 14, 2006 9:54 pm

Brendocon wrote:I wasn't literally calling for a new forum... just wanting a bit of a "grr argh" about the fact that people keep ignoring existing discussions to start up an inflammatory topic that:

a) they barely contribute to themselves beyond the initial statement
b) descends into people arguing for the sake of arguing, and never really goes anywhere

It's like if I were to go into G1 and start a "Boy, isn't the comic utter ****" topic. Wait until it's hit three pages, then start another one going "This is why the comic's really over rated" one in which everybody just starts up again going over the same stuff. One one hand it's utterly unnecessary, and on the other it shows little but disrespect towards the people who've just spent three pages discussing it.

It's not because religion doesn't interest me - it's because it's quite a disconcerting trend that I wanted to have a bit of a hissy fit about.

So, you'd be wanting a big sign over the topic(s) that says something along the lines of "Constructive arguments only. Squabbles will be deleted."?

Fair enough.

And let's hope the topics don't then fall into impasses.

I miss Ishin.

Practice makes perfect.

Post by **Kaylee** » Mon Aug 14, 2006 11:06 pm

That's the trick, I don't think anybody really wants official censorship on the issue or for mods to start deleting/dictating topics, just for some of the protagonists involved to perhaps consider ratcheting it back a little bitty bit or giving some of the more inflammatory stuff a miss every now and again. Or not. As Besty (rightly) observed, we can always just not contribute, but obviously that's up to the individual- not to moderators.

Brendocon · Post by **Brendocon** » Tue Aug 15, 2006 7:48 am

Rebis wrote:So, you'd be wanting a big sign over the topic(s) that says something along the lines of "Constructive arguments only. Squabbles will be deleted."?

Ideally I'd like for a certain member of the board to stop starting inflammatory topics solely for the sake of being controversial, whilst blissfully disregarding that an essentially identical subject may already be under discussion in an active thread. That they themself may even have started.

Post by **Best First** » Tue Aug 15, 2006 9:05 am

If you have issues with a specific board member:

a) don't try and deal with it in the main forum. You know this. If you do think you have a valid point deal with it via PM. And also via site staff only.
b) build a better case, the behaviour you are describing could apply to a few people and i think the person you are trying to finger probably isn't the worst protaganist at the moment.
c) Be careful not to confuse personal opinions of people with a need for something to be done about how they act. We have already had one unneccessary spat this month in the sims topic.

Frankly with the fact this is now 'i want someone to behave differently' which is an offline issue i am very tempted to delete this topic.

I think there probably is a case for people calming down and being a bit more respectful in the religous topics but having reviewed them this applies to a number of people (myself included, frankly) and not just one individual.

So everyone can take that last statement on board and we will see how we go.

Metal Vendetta · Post by **Metal Vendetta** » Tue Aug 15, 2006 9:18 am

I wanted to bring the work of Sam Harris to people's attention so I'll do it here, quietly and unobtrusively.

If anyone considers it inflammatory, I'll edit the post.

Post by **Kaylee** » Tue Aug 15, 2006 9:23 am

Best First wrote: Frankly with the fact this is now 'i want someone to behave differently' which is an offline issue i am very tempted to delete this topic.

I think there probably is a case for people calming down and being a bit more respectful in the religous topics but having reviewed them this applies to a number of people (myself included, frankly) and not just one individual.

So everyone can take that last statement on board and we will see how we go.

Whilst I believe the issue was more to do with how individuals may respond to a member, rather than officially reprimanding that individual, your points are none-the-less well seen and I respect your decision.