The illegal immigration thing

[Professor Smooth]

My country's been in an uproar over the illegal immigration issue over the past few months. I fail to see how there's a debate at all. If you are in a country illegally, then you are breaking the law. Perhaps that law should be changed. Perhaps not. But to protest that you want to be able to continue being able to break the law without punishment seems, to me at least, incredibly stupid.

Thoughts? Opinions?

[Predabot]

Just open the borders up completely, you're still using an ungodly amount of them workers for your dirty-work anyway apparently. Entire companies put to a complete standstill because their illegal workers wont come to work.

No unions or wage-increase tho. If that happens they'll stop being usefull, and must be stripped of citisenship, and deported immediately.

[Best First]

i think the point is how come industry is allowed to be propped up by illegal immigration but the migrants aren't allowed legitimacy?

either the economy needs them or it doesn't - the US government allows these people to exist in limbo as it provides cheaper labour.

[Professor Smooth]

Excellent point. It would seem that a way to curb illegal immigration would be to crack down on the people illegally employ them, not on the immigrants themselves. Short of shooting at people running across the border, there's really no way to stop it completely. Making it difficult (or, ideally, impossible) to find jobs in the US would be the simplest solution.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

[sprunkner]

I grew up in an area that was practically carried on illegal immigrants' backs. We bought all our fruit from roadside fruit stands where nobody spoke English, we had our yardwork done by a bunch of ilegales, and eventually my ma hired a cleaning lady who was illegal.

So sounds like my parents were pretty much supportive of the whole screwed-up system. But they paid the same wages to the immigrants they paid to anyone else who did similar work for them, and the immigrants did better work. Everyone in those areas I knew would rather work with immigrants. For the most part they were hard-working and uncomplaining. Simple capitalism-- they are usually more honest and dedicated. You can't fight that invisible hand.

The United States sits on top of the Third World and does squat to help out the horrible poverty and lawlessness that rule some parts of Latin America. Why the f*** are we complaining that these people come to our country any way they can? Of course they're protesting. They came here for a better life. They come here and they work their collective @$$es off for something that you and I were simply born into. And now we want to send them back? This is like taking poor black Americans who leave the racist, poverty-stricken areas of the South for more affluent areas and sending them back. They have a right to want a better life. Most of them can't get that in their own country.

The state I grew up in and the state I live in now were taken by force from Mexico. The US has no real right to Utah or California. Everyone I know eats Mexican food, speaks a little Spanish, and likes salsa dancing. They are part of our culture and they have a basic human right to be here. They cannot get this quality of life in their own country, and we are doing nothing to provide it to them when we can.

It's one thing to say that ilegales should be hard to employ. It's another thing to meet someone who is genuinely working hard for a better life for their children and grandchildren, and look them in the eye and say, "Sorry. You're illegal and I won't hire you." The system is screwed up.

[Scraplet]

Its not just the States. Certain industries in the UK would grind to a halt without such labour. Most notible; the food industry. Very few people in the UK are willing to pick vegetables. Poor work, poor conditions, poor pay.

We demand cheap food, the supermarkerts drive down the prices on our behalf, so the food industry can't afford huge wages. And we are shocked and surprised to find out that Chinese immigrants who arived in a cargo freight are picking our brussle sprouts or shellfish.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

Yeah - like KFC

[Scraplet]

Yeah - like KFC

Don't mention those food-poisoning ba****ds to me. Beware the microbial hazards of such products. [other contaminated fast-food joints are availble ]

[Optimus Prime Rib]

I grew up in an area that was practically carried on illegal immigrants' backs. We bought all our fruit from roadside fruit stands where nobody spoke English, we had our yardwork done by a bunch of ilegales, and eventually my ma hired a cleaning lady who was illegal.

So sounds like my parents were pretty much supportive of the whole screwed-up system. But they paid the same wages to the immigrants they paid to anyone else who did similar work for them, and the immigrants did better work. Everyone in those areas I knew would rather work with immigrants. For the most part they were hard-working and uncomplaining. Simple capitalism-- they are usually more honest and dedicated. You can't fight that invisible hand.

The United States sits on top of the Third World and does squat to help out the horrible poverty and lawlessness that rule some parts of Latin America. Why the f*** are we complaining that these people come to our country any way they can? Of course they're protesting. They came here for a better life. They come here and they work their collective @$$es off for something that you and I were simply born into. And now we want to send them back? This is like taking poor black Americans who leave the racist, poverty-stricken areas of the South for more affluent areas and sending them back. They have a right to want a better life. Most of them can't get that in their own country.

The state I grew up in and the state I live in now were taken by force from Mexico. The US has no real right to Utah or California. Everyone I know eats Mexican food, speaks a little Spanish, and likes salsa dancing. They are part of our culture and they have a basic human right to be here. They cannot get this quality of life in their own country, and we are doing nothing to provide it to them when we can.

It's one thing to say that ilegales should be hard to employ. It's another thing to meet someone who is genuinely working hard for a better life for their children and grandchildren, and look them in the eye and say, "Sorry. You're illegal and I won't hire you." The system is screwed up.

I dont have the time to cut and splice this post to address each issue I have with this post. I would like to say that the "racist areas of the south" exist in the entire WORLD. The south gets the worst rap because of the cotton industry that is so prevalent here and everyone equates cotton with slavery. When I moved to Michigan interracial couples would say things like "Do you have a problem with a mixed couple? Because since youre from Louisiana you MUST be racist." Just TRYING to force the "Youre racist because of where youre from" issue. THEN some would go on to say things about Mexicans, or even Canadians for that matter. But as long as they werent talking about black people they thought they werent racist. People are people.
Also, being in a blue collar industry, you can shove the whole "doing the jobs noone wants to" crap up your ass. Illegal aliens are 100% of the reason restaurant workers cant get paid competively with other skilled labor jobs. And yes what I do is considered skilled labor. Anyone gets out of line and/or demands a substantial raise, they get kicked to the curb while they pick up some illegal off the street who 1. does a CRAPPY job because they arent trained right and 2. CANT be trained right because there is a communication problem. It is now resulting in alot of Kitchen Managers being promoted simply because they can speak Spanish. And about 2/3 of those are either illegal aliens or the children of illegals who got around the law by hiding until thier child was born thus making them citizens, which is fine and all because that is the law. The problem with these managers is alot of them REFUSE to speak English even if they can. Any idea how frustrating it is when a KM calls you asking if they can get 2 cases of filets and you cant understand a DAMN thing hes saying? Then he gets an attitude with you like youre some kind of jerk.I had one guy tell me "Learn Spanish, asshole" I told him "Go F yourself, learn ENGLISH if youre calling me asking for a favor from MY store."
When all of the protests happened on the 1st I SO badly wanted INS to just surround the whole thing with the help of the military. I wanted anyone leaving to be asked "May I see your ID? if they either refused or didnt have it *click clack* thank you for making it alot easier to find you. Have a nice trip back home.
Sound heartless? It is. We are the most liberal country in the world when it comes to immigration and naturalization, and yet people STILL want to be assheads and come in illegally. Screw you. I have to follow the law SO DO YOU. Now there is a debate in DC about giving illegals government assistance. Im sorry. Did I read that right? I get told that I make too much taking care of my family of 5 on less than 25k a year to get assistance, but some jerk who can run real fast and swim upstream should get it because 'he had it so tough in Mexico' Sure. Sounds good. Hey while youre at it why dont we go ahead and buy him the Mexican flag that he will proudly display at the next rally.
Thats another thing. Screw the whole "Mexican American" thing. God I love Carlos Mencia. He immigrated legally and cant stand illegals anymore than I can. He pointed out that its probably not a good idea to stand there displaying the Mexican flag while screaming "Im an American TOO!" Apparently youre not. Apparently you are a Mexican trying to cash in on a sorely out of date system.

"OPR youre being an insensitive prick" No Im not. We allow anyone without a criminal record to apply for citizenship. Do it legally and Im all about 'give us your poor, yadda yadda" Sneak in and then have the freakin NERVE to complain that we are trying to control our borders? Screw you. Im sorry that "Uncle Jose has a bum leg and couldnt get across the Rio Grande" when you were making your little field trip. Send him a post card. Or even better, why dont you send him some information on how to get naturalized.

And SOMEONE donkey punch the freakin Mexican government official that released a pamphlet on how to effectively sneak into the USA.

Actually. in retrospect. Heres an idea. Let em in.. Hell let the WHOLE country in. And when they are here and were overcrowded and theres no more work. Lets go down with our military and a big American flag and plant it smack in the middle of Mexico City.

THERE now were ALL Americans. No flag with green in it for you to wave in my face while screamin "I want rights like you"

My family came here legally, Asshole. Want rights? Earn em.

One more thought.You here illegally? You want citizenship? Should be mandatory that you join the military for a 2 year stint. Yup. That way you get a nice signing bonus. Youre family is taken care of. And you PROVE that you want to be here for more than just the 'punch and pie'.


FFS

[Professor Smooth]

Excellent post, OPR. You've touched on something that seems to get lost in a lot of the media coverage of the immigration controversy. Americans (well, most Americans) don't have a problem with immigrants or immigration. They only have a problem with illegal immigrants and illegal immigration. It's not about race. My problems, my only problems, are with illegal immigrants taking (mostly crappy) jobs away from US citizens and with their drain on public resources. I pay taxes and I, at times, reap the benefits of those taxes. It's a nice little system we've got going. However, toss in some illegal immigrants who don't pay taxes but still make use of the systems that other do, and the system begins to (slowly) break apart.

I've heard the arguements about how illegal immigrants are needed to keep the economy functioning. I understand that because they're willing to work for low wages the cost of fruit can be kept low. However, that is completely irrelivant to the topic at hand. The price of fruit could also be kept low by paying addicts in meth, but that's not done because it's illegal.

If President Bush decided, today, that every illegal immigrant in the US was granted immediate legal citizenship, I would have very little to complain about. I'd probably make a few snarky comments about how when my great-grandparents came to this country they had to go through a bunch of hoops to become legal citizens while these people were given a free pass, but that's just human nature.

[The Last Autobot]

Well european inmigrants founded USA and killed the indians, so I guess history repeats itself.

[Professor Smooth]

Well european inmigrants founded USA and killed the indians, so I guess history repeats itself.

Horrific though it may be, what the Europeans did to the Native Americans was completely legal.

[Best First]

Well european inmigrants founded USA and killed the indians, so I guess history repeats itself.

Horrific though it may be, what the Europeans did to the Native Americans was completely legal.

like, relevant.

The notion that it is illegal immigrants fault the companies are willing to hire them is pretty freaking funny as well. Saying the economics of the situation is irrelavant shows a galactic lack of understanding as to what drives the world, not to mention a distinct lack of empathy for your fellow man.

Put yourself in their shoes:

1) Crap life here
2) Better life there

what would you do if that was you and your family? If your arguement isn't any more complex than 'but its illegal' then don't expect many people to listen - people respond to incentives far more than what is written in the rule book - otherwise we wouldn't need police.

Fact is when certain countries hoard the majority of the wealth and establish a significantly better standard of living you can't go acting all put out when other people want a slice of the pie, if uyou really want to stop illegal immigration start campaigning for a fairer, safer world so people don't feel the need to run from where they are born.

[Professor Smooth]

Like I said, if they change the laws or make them all citizens, then it's fine. If you're not going to enforce the law, then change the law. If you're not going to change the law, enforce the law.

I completely understand why people want to move to this country. For all it's problems, it's still a more enjoyable place to live than a great many others (though if it were me, I'd just keep walking until I hit Canada). However, if you're going to take the easy way into the country and not bother with taking the necessary steps to get in legally (as my family did, as OPR's family did, and as I'm sure all the other US-based Transfans' families did) and, therefore, do not pay taxes that support the services that legal (tax-paying) citizens do, then you're not entitled to share in those services.

[Best First]

then you're not entitled to share in those services.

but you are entitled to prop up the US economy? Or are econimics somehow still magically irrelavant in all of this?

don't confuse what is legal with what is ethical.

Also the issue of enforcing the law has very little to do with the immigrants themselves, as stated people respind to incentives, if there are gaps in the system the benefit outweighs the risk people will take advantage of those gaps - wouldn't you?

[Professor Smooth]

then you're not entitled to share in those services.

but you are entitled to prop up the US economy? Or are econimics somehow still magically irrelavant in all of this?

don't confuse what is legal with what is ethical.

Also the issue of enforcing the law has very little to do with the immigrants themselves, as stated people respind to incentives, if there are gaps in the system the benefit outweighs the risk people will take advantage of those gaps - wouldn't you?

Yes, you're entitled to prop up the economy. There's no law against spending money if you're not a citizen.

The US immigration law is just about as far away from ethical as you can possibly get. However, being that it is the law, I feel it should either be enforced or changed. Preferably the latter.

Wouldn't I? In a heartbeat! What reason do immigrants have to stay in their hellholes when the gaps in the American Immigration Policy allow for reasonably comfortable living (if only by comparison).

[Scraplet]

Also, being in a blue collar industry, you can shove the whole "doing the jobs noone wants to" crap up your ass. Illegal aliens are 100% of the reason restaurant workers cant get paid competively with other skilled labor jobs.

This is market forces. People are not willing to pay a high price for the service, which drives down wages. The immigrants are the response to this, not the cause IMO.

If people are willing to pay the premium, then there is a demand for a higher quality service, and wages will respond accordingly. Thats economics.

An example. My neigbour has just had an extension built on his house. To cut costs, be employed a group of illegal Chinese immigrant builders. This cost a fraction of what a UK builder would charge. They have done a (relatively) crap job, but my neighbour is happy. If he had to pay UK builder prices, he couldn't have had it done at all.

So you have high demand for cheap prices, customers who are not fussed about quality, and a cheap labour force to provide the service. Law or no law, the economics tell you what the outcome will be every time.

(Edited to resolve my inability to use the 'quote' dooflip properly)

[wideload]

My question has always been this. If the US is expected to allow unlimited immigration from latin america, then why not have unlimited migrants from turkey and north africa into europe? Why do the same people who criticize working class US citizens deny Turkey entry into the EU?

[Best First]

My question has always been this. If the US is expected to allow unlimited immigration from latin america, then why not have unlimited migrants from turkey and north africa into europe? Why do the same people who criticize working class US citizens deny Turkey entry into the EU?

Where is

a) anyone criticising working class US citizens
b) stating a case for denying Turkey entry into the EU (which if they were i would suspect would run along entirely different lines to 'they will nick out jobs')?

what a bizarre post.

Speaking of which.

Yes, you're entitled to prop up the economy. There's no law against spending money if you're not a citizen.

not what i meant

The US immigration law is just about as far away from ethical as you can possibly get. However, being that it is the law, I feel it should either be enforced or changed. Preferably the latter.

Wouldn't I? In a heartbeat! What reason do immigrants have to stay in their hellholes when the gaps in the American Immigration Policy allow for reasonably comfortable living (if only by comparison).

so who are you actually having a pop at? You give OPR's rant a big thumbs up but he is blaming the immigrants rather then the companies that employ them.

[Bouncelot]

My question has always been this. If the US is expected to allow unlimited immigration from latin america, then why not have unlimited migrants from turkey and north africa into europe? Why do the same people who criticize working class US citizens deny Turkey entry into the EU?

Where is

b) stating a case for denying Turkey entry into the EU (which if they were i would suspect would run along entirely different lines to 'they will nick out jobs')?

The main reason given for denying Turkey entry into the EU is their really poor human rights record, possibly with an added touch of "they're a muslim culture and that wouldn't integrate with the rest of the EU's culture". It's nowt to do with jobs - especially as Turks make up a large portion of Germany's workforce anyway.

[sprunkner]

Wow, this is a hot issue.

My example of poor, racist areas of the South was based on my own experience as a missionary in inner-city Charlotte and Winston-Salem, NC. There are a lot of poor black people there born into a certain kind of life who are never taught the way to get out. In fact, there were a lot of church members who were opposed to us baptizing poor black people, because the Mormon church has a fabulous welfare system, and these members (who all happened to be white) were telling us that they were just getting baptized to take advantage of the welfare system. And some probably were. But from where I stood it was not our place to judge their intentions.

There is definitely a side to immigrant culture that is hostile to the English-speaking world. I think OPR has encountered that more than I have. But there are always Black Panthers and Farrakhans. Does this mean that we should stop working for civil rights? I'm sorry, OPR, but the restaraunt industry in the US is acting just like any industry will when given the chance for cheap labor. The economy of our First World depends now on Third World labor, on sweatshops, on slave labor and on unfair wages. Don't blame the immigrants. They are still getting paid more here than they would get paid there. They are getting paid almost more in Thailand and Vietnam, in sweatshops, than they would be with an education! Wages are what they came here for. Blame the US citizens who hired them, not the immigrants.

Most of the immigrants I have known were, as I said, hard-working, honest and willing to assimilate. In fact, it was usually the second generation, their kids, who were ***holes and angry towards white people. The United States is in the Middle East making life better and ignoring the conditions in the country directly south of our borders. Does that seem right? We have thousands of machine shops directly south of the border. For God's sake, Fender guitars are made in Mexico! Can you get more American than that?

I don't think we need to declare all immigrants legal. I actually agree with Bush, (for once) on the concept of "work vouchers" that those already here and illegal, or those seeking to cross, can purchase as a way of either bringing themselves closer to citizenship or of working for enough money to eventually provide their families a comfortable life back in Latin America.

It's not illegals making it harder for those of us who are poor. They're poor. I'm poor. We're all poor. I'm a college student without medical insurance. I got really sick this weekend, went to the doctor's, and had so much work done that I'm going to have to take out a loan to pay it off. Problem is, I've already maxed out my student loans for this year. Yea.

It's big business, as usual, that is making things harder for all us poor folks, illegal immigrants and natural-born citizens. Using illegal immigrants and Third World countries is the latest example of a longtime evil practice. That's what the government should be targeting, only the government is made up of--surprise, surprise!--big businessmen.

[Optimus Prime Rib]

Wow, this is a hot issue.

My example of poor, racist areas of the South was based on my own experience as a missionary in inner-city Charlotte and Winston-Salem, NC. There are a lot of poor black people there born into a certain kind of life who are never taught the way to get out. In fact, there were a lot of church members who were opposed to us baptizing poor black people, because the Mormon church has a fabulous welfare system, and these members (who all happened to be white) were telling us that they were just getting baptized to take advantage of the welfare system. And some probably were. But from where I stood it was not our place to judge their intentions.

And the South gets called racist.Btw youre coming dangerously close to making this a religious thread.

[Best First]

Wow, this is a hot issue.

My example of poor, racist areas of the South was based on my own experience as a missionary in inner-city Charlotte and Winston-Salem, NC. There are a lot of poor black people there born into a certain kind of life who are never taught the way to get out. In fact, there were a lot of church members who were opposed to us baptizing poor black people, because the Mormon church has a fabulous welfare system, and these members (who all happened to be white) were telling us that they were just getting baptized to take advantage of the welfare system. And some probably were. But from where I stood it was not our place to judge their intentions.

And the South gets called racist.Btw youre coming dangerously close to making this a religious thread.

How is using an example from a religous group in any way turning this into a religous thread?

You might as well say that you have turned this into a fast food thread.

[sprunkner]

To clear things up:

I don't believe that the South is any more racist than any other part of the world. But their particular brand of racism is very visible, very ugly, and very old. I can't tell you the number of times I heard "That black guy is just dating that white girl so he can have sex with her and brag about it." Or, like I said before: "The blacks just want the Church welfare." I don't think the impetus for the racism was very different than the racism I saw growing up in California against Mexicans. It was an unthinking, automatic distrust of a different culture.

I use this example because it is the form of racism I am most familiar with. The Mormon Church has a very racist history. As young missionaries, the first of a generation that did not tolerate racism within the Church, we worked very hard to dispel that history. I was a missionary in the South, and I fought the South's particular brand of racism. I got very familiar with both North Carolina's societal problems and the Mormon Church's problems and how they intersected. So, sorry, I don't think the South is any more racist than anywhere else, but it is a racism I am familiar with. I love and hate the South. With the experience I had living there, who wouldn't?

And yes, this could turn into a religious topic, but we're already arguing like it is one, so what does it matter?

[wideload]

My question has always been this. If the US is expected to allow unlimited immigration from latin america, then why not have unlimited migrants from turkey and north africa into europe? Why do the same people who criticize working class US citizens deny Turkey entry into the EU?

Where is

b) stating a case for denying Turkey entry into the EU (which if they were i would suspect would run along entirely different lines to 'they will nick out jobs')?

The main reason given for denying Turkey entry into the EU is their really poor human rights record, possibly with an added touch of "they're a muslim culture and that wouldn't integrate with the rest of the EU's culture". It's nowt to do with jobs - especially as Turks make up a large portion of Germany's workforce anyway.

k fine deny turkey entry into the EU. If its human rights record is so bad, then why not take more citizens from there? Turk's do make up a large part of Germany's workforce, but the problems for them are very similar to the problems experienced by latin americans in the US. Many are denied citizenship despite decades of working there, and only a fraction of the ones who would like to emigrate are allowed to do so. As for the integration of muslim culture into european that argument is no different than integration of latino culture into american.

I just made this post because I read the BBC forums a lot. I see simultaneously many stories denying entry of migrants from north africa into Europe and an opinion section full of Europeans criticizing working class americans for doing the same. Working class americans seem to compose the largest opposition to illegal immigratoin, and rightly so since they are the ones who have to pay the cost of upper class people hiring illegal labour.

As an outsider to both issues, I think they are linked. IT is hypocracy to discuss one w/out the other.

[Best First]

I just made this post because I read the BBC forums a lot.

maybe you should have a go at people there rather than attributing opinions here to people who have said no such thing then.

k fine deny turkey entry into the EU. If its human rights record is so bad, then why not take more citizens from there?

and if you can't see the absurd nature of that arguement...

blimey.

Also, individual sensetivities aside, some parts of the world ARE more racist than others, as evidenced by some recent election results in the UK.

[wideload]

I just made this post because I read the BBC forums a lot.

maybe you should have a go at people there rather than attributing opinions here to people who have said no such thing then.

k fine deny turkey entry into the EU. If its human rights record is so bad, then why not take more citizens from there?

and if you can't see the absurd nature of that arguement...

blimey.

What's absurd about that argument. The human rights record is the result of the government which is not totally democratic. Why punish the citizens for the acts of the government? If they live under a repressive government doesnt it make sense to allow more citizens to escape that?

Also people on this board have made several posts saying people are silly to complain about immigration to America. Meanwhile, the problems in Europe remain totally unresolved.

[Best First]

What's absurd about that argument.

the notion that you solve a countries ills by movbing everyone to another country?

The human rights record is the result of the government which is not totally democratic. Why punish the citizens for the acts of the government? If they live under a repressive government doesnt it make sense to allow more citizens to escape that?

well, given that you are apparently such an expert on this subject, it suprises me that you have confused asyluym with immigration. People are allowed to seek asylum.

Plus, how do you think letting Turkey into the EU without getting them to reform the HR record is going to help?

Also people on this board have made several posts saying people are silly to complain about immigration to America. Meanwhile, the problems in Europe remain totally unresolved.

1) No one has said people are 'silly'
2) This topic was started as a result of a specific event in the US, so don't act all f'ing scandalised that people are talking about, whoah, the US
3) What makes you think that the Europeans posting in this topic wouldn't also apply the arguements they are making to their own locale? In fact i refer to 'certain countries' meaning that i clearly don't just think my points apply to the US. You are accusing people of things they aren't saying without giving them the chance to express their actual opinions on the matter.

Maybe the issue could be resolved by allowing everyone to move to another message board eh?

[wideload]

the notion that you solve a countries ills by movbing everyone to another country?

Maybe you dont solve a countries problems but you do alleviate the lives of the citizens born there with no choice.

well, given that you are apparently such an expert on this subject, it suprises me that you have confused asyluym with immigration. People are allowed to seek asylum.

Plus, how do you think letting Turkey into the EU without getting them to reform the HR record is going to help?

There is a difference between asylum and immigration I realize this. My point was that the oppresive nature of a non-democratic government should not exclude all of its citizens from migration. Europe is criticizing Turkey for being non-democratic while simultaneously forcing Turkish citizens to remain in this non-democratic state. I think the HR criticism of Turkey is used to veil a much more dubious stance in Europe. A stance I dont necesarilly criticize since I am not the one who has to deal with the issue. I, however, do not appreciate ulterior motives.

1) No one has said people are 'silly'
2) This topic was started as a result of a specific event in the US, so don't act all f'ing scandalised that people are talking about, whoah, the US
3) What makes you think that the Europeans posting in this topic wouldn't also apply the arguements they are making to their own locale? In fact i refer to 'certain countries' meaning that i clearly don't just think my points apply to the US. You are accusing people of things they aren't saying without giving them the chance to express their actual opinions on the matter.

Maybe the issue could be resolved by allowing everyone to move to another message board eh?

I didnt mean to single out anyone in this forum. In fact, a couple did relate it back to the UK (Scraplet notably). You have to admit that posting cartoons about the topic does trivialize it and make it seem "silly" though.

No I dont think this is about a specific incident in the US. This is about immigration as a wider phenomenom. To criticize people from the south as racist while ignoring immigration restrictions in other parts of the world is hypocritical.

If people on this board do feel that unlimited immigration should be allowed into Europe, then perhaps this would be an opportune time to express that sentiment. Wouldnt you agree that "the US should grant citizenship to all illegals, because I want my country to do the same" is a much better stance than "the US should be forced to grant citizenship to all illegals, while we shall have no discussion on Europe at all"

I read a lot of European message boards and media sources besides this one, it just seems so strange to me how the issues in the US vs. Europe are portrayed so differently. I have yet to see one person on any board anywhere post a message in total support of massive migration from North Africa/Turkey, yet the number of posts characterizing Southerners as racist for denying citizenship to illegal migrants is ridiculous.