The fall and sorta rise of Star Wars. My take.
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SO the DVD comes out on Monday and the cycle is complete. Or something.
I was just wandering how the new Star Wars has changed your opinion of what was once the hold grail of Sci-fi film over the last few years?
Here's my opinion journey.
Once upon a time Star Wars was the Holy grail of Sci-fi. Geeks loved it, the average movie goer loved it and any references were of the brilliant observation and examination of a classic. I can't think of any film more referenced in pop culture or more universally seen. Generally it was constantly referred to as the best trilogy of all time. Nobody really argued.
I recall school days the 90's when everybody creamed themselves over the prospect of a new Star Wars with modern special effects. Nothing could get man y of my friends excited as a discussion on a new SW film.
Edventually it's announced and it feels like a dream come true. The trailer is replayed, the fans and media wet themselves and everybody goes to see it.
Then the "Phantom menace" comes to the cinema. Almost everybody thinks it's great for a while, mostly because everybody wanted it to be great and the production does blow you away first time of watching.
However there is that nagging feeling that something isn't right. That feeling gets stronger every time you watch the matrix which was so cool or the Mummy which somehow is less cheesy even though it was meant to be chock full of the edam.
A year or so later and a few more rematches of the Matrix we all saw that it was crap, light sabres and pod races aside.
For the next few years it was slaughtered (that classic scene from Spaced comes to mind) by a wiser, more aware and frankly hipper audience. It destroyed what was special about the originals for some and highlighted how movies have dumbed down over the 20 odd years since Lucas last directed.
Next up comes a stronger instalment with much worse acting but we forgot it's relative merits because Spider-man was so darn brilliant, Green Goblin costume aside and The Fellowship of the Ring gives us that "WOW, that’s so fresh and amazing" experience an older generation experienced in 1979. Fellowship becomes the movie experience of our lifetime in our hearts and Spider-man effortlessly highlights how a great love story should be written and acted out.
Lord of the rings comes and goes, Spider-man carries on with an equally impressive sequel, the matrix becomes loathed thanks to senseless sequels that push it into ultra geek territory (Never to return) and all we are left with is the wait for episode 3: The one we wanted all along.
The timely release of the original films of DVD reminded me how excellent The Empire strikes back is (And steals back it's place for best film of all time IMO) and that the originals are still worth our time.
Episode 3 lived up to expectations, partly because those expectations were cautious thanks mostly to the Phantom Menace. The acting does the job, the story helped remind us why we loved the originals so much in the first place and the action is as good as ever. But, it still isn't enough to return the SW franchise to it's former status as the Sci-fi all others aspire to.
Some people could never consider Star Wars as a contender after the phantom Menace. But for a smaller number it Episode 3 does the job and returns SW to it's former glory. I'll decide when I get it on DVD and in a years time see how many times I want to watch it However already I notice nobody asks for more SW sequels. Nobody is really excited about the TV series. Me and my mates no longer have the uncontrollable urge to grab sticks, tin foil or similar and swing it around making light saber noises. I see now that the new sequels have damaged to some degree my love for even the old trilogy. It’s just another series of Sci-fi/Fantasy films.
So there we go, my random take on the fall and re-rise of the most talked about and influential franchise in modern cinematic history. I hope it didn't waste to much of your time. I'll be the first to admit I'm not a good writer but I wanted to get this off my chest. Closure I suppose.
I'll be buying episode 3 on Monday. I personally enjoyed it as much or more than any big budget film of this year so far. However Lord of the Ring's has stolen my heart for best film franchise of all time.
I was just wandering how the new Star Wars has changed your opinion of what was once the hold grail of Sci-fi film over the last few years?
Here's my opinion journey.
Once upon a time Star Wars was the Holy grail of Sci-fi. Geeks loved it, the average movie goer loved it and any references were of the brilliant observation and examination of a classic. I can't think of any film more referenced in pop culture or more universally seen. Generally it was constantly referred to as the best trilogy of all time. Nobody really argued.
I recall school days the 90's when everybody creamed themselves over the prospect of a new Star Wars with modern special effects. Nothing could get man y of my friends excited as a discussion on a new SW film.
Edventually it's announced and it feels like a dream come true. The trailer is replayed, the fans and media wet themselves and everybody goes to see it.
Then the "Phantom menace" comes to the cinema. Almost everybody thinks it's great for a while, mostly because everybody wanted it to be great and the production does blow you away first time of watching.
However there is that nagging feeling that something isn't right. That feeling gets stronger every time you watch the matrix which was so cool or the Mummy which somehow is less cheesy even though it was meant to be chock full of the edam.
A year or so later and a few more rematches of the Matrix we all saw that it was crap, light sabres and pod races aside.
For the next few years it was slaughtered (that classic scene from Spaced comes to mind) by a wiser, more aware and frankly hipper audience. It destroyed what was special about the originals for some and highlighted how movies have dumbed down over the 20 odd years since Lucas last directed.
Next up comes a stronger instalment with much worse acting but we forgot it's relative merits because Spider-man was so darn brilliant, Green Goblin costume aside and The Fellowship of the Ring gives us that "WOW, that’s so fresh and amazing" experience an older generation experienced in 1979. Fellowship becomes the movie experience of our lifetime in our hearts and Spider-man effortlessly highlights how a great love story should be written and acted out.
Lord of the rings comes and goes, Spider-man carries on with an equally impressive sequel, the matrix becomes loathed thanks to senseless sequels that push it into ultra geek territory (Never to return) and all we are left with is the wait for episode 3: The one we wanted all along.
The timely release of the original films of DVD reminded me how excellent The Empire strikes back is (And steals back it's place for best film of all time IMO) and that the originals are still worth our time.
Episode 3 lived up to expectations, partly because those expectations were cautious thanks mostly to the Phantom Menace. The acting does the job, the story helped remind us why we loved the originals so much in the first place and the action is as good as ever. But, it still isn't enough to return the SW franchise to it's former status as the Sci-fi all others aspire to.
Some people could never consider Star Wars as a contender after the phantom Menace. But for a smaller number it Episode 3 does the job and returns SW to it's former glory. I'll decide when I get it on DVD and in a years time see how many times I want to watch it However already I notice nobody asks for more SW sequels. Nobody is really excited about the TV series. Me and my mates no longer have the uncontrollable urge to grab sticks, tin foil or similar and swing it around making light saber noises. I see now that the new sequels have damaged to some degree my love for even the old trilogy. It’s just another series of Sci-fi/Fantasy films.
So there we go, my random take on the fall and re-rise of the most talked about and influential franchise in modern cinematic history. I hope it didn't waste to much of your time. I'll be the first to admit I'm not a good writer but I wanted to get this off my chest. Closure I suppose.
I'll be buying episode 3 on Monday. I personally enjoyed it as much or more than any big budget film of this year so far. However Lord of the Ring's has stolen my heart for best film franchise of all time.
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Im buying episode 3 because it has Lightsabres init and i think thats cool.
But essentially films 1-3 to are **** and have lil conection with films 4-6 which, are not as you put it, for sci-fi geeks.
the reason SW are the best films and voted by the public the bet films made is because they transend the being 'sci-fi' and thus only geeky.
they are for everyone.
the orginal SW has never fallen, for many thats what SW is and continues to be forever. the recent films are merely a cash in and thats what they will forever be for nerly everyone else.
SW never fell - its still the best set of films on earth.
But essentially films 1-3 to are **** and have lil conection with films 4-6 which, are not as you put it, for sci-fi geeks.
the reason SW are the best films and voted by the public the bet films made is because they transend the being 'sci-fi' and thus only geeky.
they are for everyone.
the orginal SW has never fallen, for many thats what SW is and continues to be forever. the recent films are merely a cash in and thats what they will forever be for nerly everyone else.
SW never fell - its still the best set of films on earth.
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I didn't mean that they were for "geeks".Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:Im buying episode 3 because it has Lightsabres init and i think thats cool.
But essentially films 1-3 to are **** and have lil conection with films 4-6 which, are not as you put it, for sci-fi geeks.
I meant that the new films have taken off the mainstream popularity and universal acceptance that Star Wars enjoyed and has become viewed as "another hard core Sci-fi franchaise" as opposed to a class series of films that stands above everything and transends it's genre. It does to some degree, but less so than before the new films.
Last edited by Jetfire on Wed Oct 26, 2005 12:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Ok sorry I miss-understood.
Your right in the respect I think that whilst the new films made ppl sit up and take note of SW againn, it almost had the reverse effect of making ppl not watch them unless they had
A. seen the other films
B. you werent into sc-fi.
LotR is a an example of where you dont have to be into swords and soccery yet ppl new it was so bloody good they had to watch it.
SW achived this too. I think the recent films almost perverted the trend because the general view was they are good films but nothing like the orginals so dont watch em unless your a 'fan' and hard to becomea fan in somthing u havent seen before unless you are prepared to invest 6 hours in what might be classed as 'old' films and thus ****... somthing like that
Your right in the respect I think that whilst the new films made ppl sit up and take note of SW againn, it almost had the reverse effect of making ppl not watch them unless they had
A. seen the other films
B. you werent into sc-fi.
LotR is a an example of where you dont have to be into swords and soccery yet ppl new it was so bloody good they had to watch it.
SW achived this too. I think the recent films almost perverted the trend because the general view was they are good films but nothing like the orginals so dont watch em unless your a 'fan' and hard to becomea fan in somthing u havent seen before unless you are prepared to invest 6 hours in what might be classed as 'old' films and thus ****... somthing like that
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I think it all ended with The Phantom Menace. It was awful beyond excuse, and that was the real moment for me. It could have all been so good, there I was, lightsaber in hand - we had even planned to get up and have a fight during the closing credits - but it was just awful. I went to see it a week later to make sure. It was not to be..
I quite like Clones but I think I've only seennit thrice despite owning it. Some terrible moments, but on the whole a good movie.
...Sith?Dunno, it's been a while. Might have to check what I posted back then. I'm fairly sure I liked it. If TPM had been of that standard, SW would have been the only franchise worth taling about.
I quite like Clones but I think I've only seennit thrice despite owning it. Some terrible moments, but on the whole a good movie.
...Sith?Dunno, it's been a while. Might have to check what I posted back then. I'm fairly sure I liked it. If TPM had been of that standard, SW would have been the only franchise worth taling about.
I would have waited a ******* eternity for this!!!!
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What emvee said. Myself and everyone I went to see it with thought Menace blew straight after we saw it. Was one of those silent walks to the pub after when no-one wanted to be the first to say it was crap. I don't know anyone in real life - no wait, one guy - who though Menace was even "alright" aftter seeing it.
Bought it on DVD to watch the lightsaber fight.
Clones was okay, although I've only seen it twice. And once was the day before I went to see Sith, and I had to buy the DVD to watch it, as I hadn't previously been bothered enough to pick it up. So that tells a story.
I liked Sith because I was no longer expecting another part of the 'holy trinity'. It met my expectations, which had been generated by the first two films.
Will get it on DVD - eventually - to watch the lightsaber fight.
If I wanted to rip it, and the others, apart, it would be easy. But I haven't yet felt inclined to.
So, I guess the only shallow conclusions I've came to so far are that lightsaber fights are wicked, and cost me money.
Bought it on DVD to watch the lightsaber fight.
Clones was okay, although I've only seen it twice. And once was the day before I went to see Sith, and I had to buy the DVD to watch it, as I hadn't previously been bothered enough to pick it up. So that tells a story.
I liked Sith because I was no longer expecting another part of the 'holy trinity'. It met my expectations, which had been generated by the first two films.
Will get it on DVD - eventually - to watch the lightsaber fight.
If I wanted to rip it, and the others, apart, it would be easy. But I haven't yet felt inclined to.
So, I guess the only shallow conclusions I've came to so far are that lightsaber fights are wicked, and cost me money.
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If I watch the old trilogy I'll start thinking "How the hell did that annoying moron Hayden Christiansen become the all awesome and huge Darth Vader?"
The new SW trilogy is crap - and it has made me dislike the ewoks(/Return of the jedi) even more.
And my favourite Star Wars quote has become Darth Vaders "NooOOoooOOoooo" - and when I say it everybody laughs and thinks "Hehe. Star Wars is poo".
The new SW trilogy is crap - and it has made me dislike the ewoks(/Return of the jedi) even more.
And my favourite Star Wars quote has become Darth Vaders "NooOOoooOOoooo" - and when I say it everybody laughs and thinks "Hehe. Star Wars is poo".
Can't believe I'm still here.
I just didn't get Hayden Christiansens hair. Why would any self respecting jedi have hair like that? I love LOTR, I love SW 4-6, I just didn't get 1-3, I think it may be because in such a long wait between the trilogies, everyone had their own opinion, or thoughts of how the precursing stories should be, so thus disapointed when it wasn't their ideal.
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I'm in agreement with those who said it ended with Episode 1.
I didn't hate it, but I knew immediately it was a misfire.
Since then its been dissected over and over. We all know the reasons why the film doesn't work, I won't go into it again here.
TPM also heralded in a new generation of Star Wars geeks, who I'd never be able to keep up with. Sure, I could name every background character in Mos Eisley cantina, but I couldn't give a toss about the names of the bods in the jedi council.
I also knew that the next 2 films could be amazing, it still wouldn't stop this film being a massive blot on the entire SW story.
With AOTC, well, it started so well. But then the people in the cinema started laughing at it...
I'm buying RoTS, but I'll still be cringing all the way through.
I was into SW more than TFs as a kid, mainly because I could afford the toys more. SW books also helped me fill the void in the 90s when TFs were defunct. Oh well.
The original trilogy still rocks. I guess I wish they could have been left alone (without prequels, without added CGI) to just stand as products of their time.
I still plan a marathon session with all 6 films before xmas tho! Sigh.
I didn't hate it, but I knew immediately it was a misfire.
Since then its been dissected over and over. We all know the reasons why the film doesn't work, I won't go into it again here.
TPM also heralded in a new generation of Star Wars geeks, who I'd never be able to keep up with. Sure, I could name every background character in Mos Eisley cantina, but I couldn't give a toss about the names of the bods in the jedi council.
I also knew that the next 2 films could be amazing, it still wouldn't stop this film being a massive blot on the entire SW story.
With AOTC, well, it started so well. But then the people in the cinema started laughing at it...
I'm buying RoTS, but I'll still be cringing all the way through.
I was into SW more than TFs as a kid, mainly because I could afford the toys more. SW books also helped me fill the void in the 90s when TFs were defunct. Oh well.
The original trilogy still rocks. I guess I wish they could have been left alone (without prequels, without added CGI) to just stand as products of their time.
I still plan a marathon session with all 6 films before xmas tho! Sigh.
If you like that sorta funny films gif, I know its a bit off topic but check these out, funny as hell!
http://www.angryalien.com/
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http://www.angryalien.com/
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That was hilarious.
LotR beats SW because it's thematically stronger--a lot said about the nature of evil, temptation, the transience of life, the ideals of freedom and good old fashioned environmentalism. SW is supposed to be a Flash Gordon serial. A really good one, but, nonetheless, just a space adventure. Come on and look at this:
"Anakin, you've turned to evil!"
"Well, from my point of view the Jedi are evil!"
"I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened."
"So do all who live to see such times, but that is not for them to decide. All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you."
Star Wars gives us these staggeringly beautiful and hearfelt images and icons--but without the story to go with them. Episode III gave us the creation of a mass murderer in two easy steps. It doesn't happen that way. Even the first, the eps 4-6, when I watch them now, are just shallow adventure-- nothing deeper.
LotR beats SW because it's thematically stronger--a lot said about the nature of evil, temptation, the transience of life, the ideals of freedom and good old fashioned environmentalism. SW is supposed to be a Flash Gordon serial. A really good one, but, nonetheless, just a space adventure. Come on and look at this:
"Anakin, you've turned to evil!"
"Well, from my point of view the Jedi are evil!"
"I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened."
"So do all who live to see such times, but that is not for them to decide. All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you."
Star Wars gives us these staggeringly beautiful and hearfelt images and icons--but without the story to go with them. Episode III gave us the creation of a mass murderer in two easy steps. It doesn't happen that way. Even the first, the eps 4-6, when I watch them now, are just shallow adventure-- nothing deeper.
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bingo.spiderfrommars wrote:I'm buying RoTS, but I'll still be cringing all the way through.
i think Sith was largely pump, i dn't agree at all it was come kind of return to form.
As an aside, Han Solo's turn around isn't that convining either in character terms is it? You just accept it because you want it to happen.
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4-6 are better because they dont have one plot - destroy the ring. which takes 9+ hours of Sam and Frodo crying.sprunkner wrote: Star Wars gives us these staggeringly beautiful and hearfelt images and icons--but without the story to go with them. Episode III gave us the creation of a mass murderer in two easy steps. It doesn't happen that way. Even the first, the eps 4-6, when I watch them now, are just shallow adventure-- nothing deeper.
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actually
become a Jedi
avenge your father
realise vader is your father
destroy the empire
---
compare
destroy ring.
big pooo.
And of course aragorn cries - hes a freaking pansy from start to end. i again quote, maddox.
http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=lotr1
see
become a Jedi
avenge your father
realise vader is your father
destroy the empire
---
compare
destroy ring.
big pooo.
And of course aragorn cries - hes a freaking pansy from start to end. i again quote, maddox.
http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=lotr1
see
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Well... Frodo is a simple hobbit who likes to drink -> he becomes the friggin ring bearer.Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:actually
become a Jedi
avenge your father
realise vader is your father
destroy the empire
---
compare
destroy ring.
big pooo.
And of course aragorn cries - hes a freaking pansy from start to end. i again quote, maddox.
http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=lotr1
see
Aragorn goes from "Lost ranger" to "Oh hell I dont wanna deal with my past" to "LOL I am the friggin king - but not yet... not yet!" to "Allright, I'll be king, k thx"
Merry and Pippin -> "Hey we like to drink and have fun" -> "Give us a sword, we'll even fight the friggin witch king!"
etc.
Can't believe I'm still here.
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For me it died after the 97 special editions of the original trilogy. I love the original trilogy and the special eds were nce touches with a few enhancements - matte lnes (Rancor - ROTJ), more detail in and around loud city - ESB etc etc etc. It didn't detract from the film and helped keep the freshness of the originals.
I kept an open mined with the new trilogy but it was a very bad start with the appaulingly BAD Phantom Menace. Star Wars i always felt was not just for geeks but had a universal age limit to it, appealing to all ages young and old. To me it felt like Lucas sold out just to the little 8 year olds with TPM too much emphsis on a fantasic light and effect films and a poorly written story which considering the huge premise - the coming of Vader, should have been much much better. Plus Darth Maul, the most overhyped overrated sith lord to grace star wars just because he had a double ended light sabre, wooooooo.
Things looked better with Attack Of The Clones which felt more like a Star Wars film to be (which TPM didn't), of course it had it's good and bad points and Hayden C's acting was 50/50 (Though giving what he had to work with.. ah forget it it was 50% okay 50 wooden). I actually felt happy at least after seeing it, i felt it was alot better and starting to get back on track at least. [grumble]Would've like Annakin and Dokuu's fight to bet better/longer but...[/grumble]
Three was a huge dissapointment. No matter what the fanboys in force might say. How this is supposed to be the greatest star wars film ever defies me. It was too choppy for me and there was absolutelty no chemistry between Hayden and miss portman as annakin and Padme, nothing, not a sausauge, making it very wooden. The music wasn't up to usual standards either and the whole sorry affair rather piss-poor.
Star Wars begins with A New Hope and Ends With Return Of The Jedi, i tried the new trilogy, i really did, but apart from II - AOT the whole sorry prequels should never have been made.
I kept an open mined with the new trilogy but it was a very bad start with the appaulingly BAD Phantom Menace. Star Wars i always felt was not just for geeks but had a universal age limit to it, appealing to all ages young and old. To me it felt like Lucas sold out just to the little 8 year olds with TPM too much emphsis on a fantasic light and effect films and a poorly written story which considering the huge premise - the coming of Vader, should have been much much better. Plus Darth Maul, the most overhyped overrated sith lord to grace star wars just because he had a double ended light sabre, wooooooo.
Things looked better with Attack Of The Clones which felt more like a Star Wars film to be (which TPM didn't), of course it had it's good and bad points and Hayden C's acting was 50/50 (Though giving what he had to work with.. ah forget it it was 50% okay 50 wooden). I actually felt happy at least after seeing it, i felt it was alot better and starting to get back on track at least. [grumble]Would've like Annakin and Dokuu's fight to bet better/longer but...[/grumble]
Three was a huge dissapointment. No matter what the fanboys in force might say. How this is supposed to be the greatest star wars film ever defies me. It was too choppy for me and there was absolutelty no chemistry between Hayden and miss portman as annakin and Padme, nothing, not a sausauge, making it very wooden. The music wasn't up to usual standards either and the whole sorry affair rather piss-poor.
Star Wars begins with A New Hope and Ends With Return Of The Jedi, i tried the new trilogy, i really did, but apart from II - AOT the whole sorry prequels should never have been made.
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Two Points:
1. How much better would I-III have been if Lucas hadn't directed at all? Could a better director make better movies out of the still crappy scripts?
2. To have a proper discussion about this, we would have to have the opinions of people who are the same age we were when we first saw IV-VI. This is THEIR trilogy, for better or worse, and they had a whole lot less anticipation and cynicism in their heads.
1. How much better would I-III have been if Lucas hadn't directed at all? Could a better director make better movies out of the still crappy scripts?
2. To have a proper discussion about this, we would have to have the opinions of people who are the same age we were when we first saw IV-VI. This is THEIR trilogy, for better or worse, and they had a whole lot less anticipation and cynicism in their heads.
Best First wrote:I thought we could just meander between making well thought out points, being needlessly immature, provocative and generalist, then veer into caring about constructive debate and make a few valid points, act civil for a bit, then lower the tone again, then act offended when we get called on it, then dictate what it is and isn't worth debating, reinterpret a few of my own posts through a less offensive lens, then jaunt down whatever other path our seemingly volatile mood took us in.
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I think it would have made a substantial difference actually as it would have forced GL to actually come up with a proper script before filming commenced.Shanti418 wrote: 1. How much better would I-III have been if Lucas hadn't directed at all? Could a better director make better movies out of the still crappy scripts?
Having listened to the commentary on the Ep3 DVD this past week, i noticed that someone talks about GL making up chunks of the script just before each scene (or indeed changing it afterwards so the scene would have to be reshot). If there had been a director seperate from GL then this would probably not have been the case.
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George isn't a particularly good director, but the bigger problem is the scripts. I just wish he had collaborated more on them.
However, the 2 films he didn't direct (ESB and ROTJ) do remain the ones with the best performances.
I have to say I've already watched my Sith dvd twice since buying it last week. Apart from a couple of bits that I really hate, I can enjoy it for what it is. However, I'd still rather be caught watching animal porn.
However, the 2 films he didn't direct (ESB and ROTJ) do remain the ones with the best performances.
I have to say I've already watched my Sith dvd twice since buying it last week. Apart from a couple of bits that I really hate, I can enjoy it for what it is. However, I'd still rather be caught watching animal porn.
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- Over Pompous Autobot Commander
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Definitely!!spiderfrommars wrote:George isn't a particularly good director, but the bigger problem is the scripts. I just wish he had collaborated more on them.
ROTJ does have good perfomances, however the Jabba dance scene and the whole Ewok debarcle totally spoil the otherwise great film. One day, when i'm good at video editting i'm gonna cut all that **** out, i'll probably end up with 45 min film, but it'll be a much more watchable one in my opinion.spiderfrommars wrote:However, the 2 films he didn't direct (ESB and ROTJ) do remain the ones with the best performances.
ESB on the other hand is a total classic.
Yes me too, (once with commentary, once without). It is without a doubt the best of the prequals. And almost on a par with ROTJ (see above).spiderfrommars wrote:I have to say I've already watched my Sith dvd twice since buying it last week. Apart from a couple of bits that I really hate,
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