Reassessing TF stuff

Post by **spiderfrommars** » Sun Oct 09, 2005 1:57 pm

Budiansky... once reviled, now respected?

Furman... once The Man, now just a man?

Pat Lee... at first liked, now hated?

Time Wars... then epic, now idiotic?

Senior, Figueroa... always loved unconditionally?

What stock in the TF universe has risen or fallen over the years?

Predabot · Post by **Predabot** » Sun Oct 09, 2005 3:12 pm

Well, I think you pretty much nailed most of them now? I think that, the person who's just continued to drop is Jose Delbo. And unfairly so, if anyone asks me.

I think everybodys always hated Neil Yomtov..

Hound · Post by **Hound** » Sun Oct 09, 2005 7:20 pm

I think Furman's contribution over the years is enough to warrant being more than just 'a man'.

He accepts his DW stuff wasn't great, I'm hoping IDW will be a return to form for him.

Post by **Denyer** » Sun Oct 09, 2005 9:28 pm

Don't think I've ever disliked Budiansky as a person, just most of his stories. I still dislike most of his stories—the only thing that's really changed is finding out how much of the basic construction work of Transformers he put together for Marvel. Which I suppose is comparatively recent, as he's come back into the fandom loop at bit with convention appearances.

Furman... stuff is now largely in print for all to see, which diminishes the legend. What's behind that is nothing to be sniffed at, though—a young writer with a great many ideas and a tight grasp of how to use multiple framings within a given strip. Good intuition.

The benefit of the doubt for Pat Lee lasted three or four issues.

Time Wars... I still like.

Senior, yes. Figueroa... in all honesty, I prefer the stuff he did as DPrime2 over a lot of the manga-lite stuff DW pressed him towards. Left to his own devices he's great, though... the design sketches for TWW being a case in point. The designs were sharper and more detailed before being coloured.

I think Manny Galan is unfairly criticised... it didn't come out until fairly recently how short the deadlines on G2 were, and I like the rough and slightly abstract stuff he came up with anyway.

If anything, I dislike Yomtov's work even more now. The US art was very traditional in the main, not bad a lot of the time, but brought down further by the colouring.

Post by **spiderfrommars** » Sun Oct 09, 2005 11:27 pm

Denyer wrote:Don't think I've ever disliked Budiansky as a person, just most of his stories. I still dislike most of his stories—the only thing that's really changed is finding out how much of the basic construction work of Transformers he put together for Marvel. Which I suppose is comparatively recent, as he's come back into the fandom loop at bit with convention appearances.

Yeah. I'm thinking after Furman's G1 US run and G2, Budiansky was despised by some. After the dissapointment of Dreamwave, and especially as its come to light how much groundwork he did for the TFs from the start (he even gave Megatron his name for Pete's sake!) estimations have gone up. It also became clearer just how much pressure he was under from Hasbro to deliver new characters each month.

Denyer wrote: I think Manny Galan is unfairly criticised... it didn't come out until fairly recently how short the deadlines on G2 were, and I like the rough and slightly abstract stuff he came up with anyway.

Another creator under intense pressure at the time. Personally, I like Galan's last few issues for G2 where he'd got to grips with the style of the title.

Predabot · Post by **Predabot** » Mon Oct 10, 2005 12:08 am

Denyer wrote:I think Manny Galan is unfairly criticised... it didn't come out until fairly recently how short the deadlines on G2 were.

Could you please divulge to us, exactly how short, and during wich condititons these deadlines were, to be met?

Post by **Denyer** » Mon Oct 10, 2005 1:00 am

Cliffy came up with the figure of it often being as many as four or five full pages a day—ask him if you want a source on that.

I love the simplicity of something like "Total War!" (G2 #10)—especially all of the motion lines going out towards panel corners. There are almost no backgrounds, and the FX are huge. There's even one where the panel is framed through the sound effect. It all captures the movement terrifically. Plus the writing takes on fuller focus.

Laserwave · Post by **Laserwave** » Mon Oct 10, 2005 1:22 am

I always did like a lot of Budiansky stuff. Remember, as I`ve said before, he laid the groundwork. He was the pioneer.

Furman, is the man, always will be. Sure, he`s been a bit hit and miss, but even Stan Lee had off days. Furman will get back to his best after a long lay off.

Senior is God. End of.

Figueroa will acheive God-hood. I hope.

Lee was always a eedjit, a fanboy who wanted to stamp his own personal mark on the Transformers, and who wanted everyone to love him for it. As well as make a huge pile of cash.

I always liked Time Wars too.

And Yomtov sucked.

KingMob · Post by **KingMob** » Mon Oct 10, 2005 6:02 am

Denyer wrote:Cliffy came up with the figure of it often being as many as four or five full pages a day

Eeeep.

Can't say I disagree with anything upthread. Never really got the Budiansky hate.
Yomtov has always sucked; that was poor work when it first came out, never mind looking at it 20 years later.

Post by **spiderfrommars** » Mon Oct 10, 2005 8:46 am

Yomtov seemed to step up his game near the end...

Legion · Post by **Legion** » Mon Oct 10, 2005 10:37 am

spiderfrommars wrote:Budiansky... once reviled, now respected?

never reviled the bloke, sure used to moan about things like Carwash of Doom and the Wrestling debarkle, but always loved his early stuff, in particular the whole "Shockwave has Prime's head on a spike" arc.
The recent "discovery" about the level of Bob's involvment in the early days has only bolstered my liking of the man and his work, and i can't really blame him for starting to seemingly burn out story wise towards the end.

spiderfrommars wrote:Furman... once The Man, now just a man?

Why, what's happened there? Furman's still The Man as much as he ever was.

spiderfrommars wrote:Pat Lee... at first liked, now hated?

Not sure about this 'liked', i held out hope for him at first, but that hope never really materialised imho. Some of the early poster work was nice, but after a couple of issue's his inability to tell a story with his artwork became very apparent. His total lack of business sense was just too much to beleive.

spiderfrommars wrote:Time Wars... then epic, now idiotic?

Oh no, not idiotic, just flawed. And i've always thought do, so nothing's changed there really imho.

spiderfrommars wrote:Senior, Figueroa... always loved unconditionally?

Senior is The Man. Figueroa is great too!

spiderfrommars wrote:What stock in the TF universe has risen or fallen over the years?

Best First : Under the Box!

Post by **Best First** » Mon Oct 10, 2005 11:27 am

Yomtov - notably on Rythms.

That said, Delbo's composition and stroytelling remains perfunctary at best.

I think its safe to say for many that their stock in the cartoon has fallen - my initial nostalgia was rapidly blunted by the abundance of wank stories and the amazing lack of any characetr development whatsoever.

I def don't like Timewars as much as i used to, whereas i think Legacy and T2006 only get better with age.

DW's stock fell quite literally didn't it? Let's hope IDWs continues to rise.

Post by **spiderfrommars** » Mon Oct 10, 2005 11:30 am

Just for the record I personally love both Furmy and Time Wars...

Scraplet · Post by **Scraplet** » Mon Oct 10, 2005 12:53 pm

I had no problem with Budansky as a kid. It was clear that Budansky was writing with an audience of young boys in mind. Its only as I got older that his material generally became simplistic and unsatisfying.

I think he knew his audience well at first, and initially played to them well (Autobots last stand, the shockwave arc). I don't think he expected it to last long, or be remebered particularly. As a result, when it did last, he burned out quickly and failed to develop with his aging audience.

Furman always seems to have a clear picture of his audience at any given time. And he IS the man.

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Reassessing TF stuff

Re: Reassessing TF stuff