Racism in the UK and the West in General

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Racism in the UK and the West in General

Post by Shanti418 » Fri Aug 12, 2005 12:00 am

From The Nation:
Arabs and Muslims are being debased in torture chambers around the world and their deaths are being discounted in simultaneous colonial wars, at the same time that graphic digital evidence of these losses and humiliations is available to anyone with a computer. And once again, this lethal cocktail of racism and torture is burning through the veins of angry young men. As Qutb's past and Osman's present reveal, it's not our tolerance for multiculturalism that fuels terrorism; it's our tolerance for the barbarism committed in our name.

Into this explosive environment has stepped Tony Blair, determined to sell two of the main causes of terror as its cure. He intends to deport more Muslims to countries where they will likely face torture. And he will keep fighting wars in which soldiers don't know the names of the towns they are leveling. (According to an August 5 Knight Ridder report, a Marine sergeant in Iraq recently pumped up his squad by telling them that "these will be the good old days, when you brought...death and destruction to--what the [composite word including 'f*ck'] is this place called?" Someone piped in helpfully, "Haqlaniyah.")

Meanwhile, in Britain, there is no shortage of the "evil and fanatic racial discrimination" that Qutb denounced. "Of course too there have been isolated and unacceptable acts of a racial or religious hatred," Blair said before unveiling his terror-fighting plan. "But they have been isolated." Isolated? The Islamic Human Rights Commission received 320 complaints of racist attacks in the wake of the bombings; the Monitoring Group has received eighty-three emergency calls; Scotland Yard says hate crimes are up 600 percent from this time last year. Not that pre-July 7 was anything to brag about: "One in five of Britain's ethnic minority voters say that they considered leaving Britain because of racial intolerance," according to a Guardian poll in March.

This last statistic shows that the brand of multiculturalism practiced in Britain (and France, Germany, Canada...) has little to do with genuine equality. It is instead a Faustian bargain, struck between vote-seeking politicians and self-appointed community leaders, one that keeps ethnic minorities tucked away in state-funded peripheral ghettos while the centers of public life remain largely unaffected by the seismic shifts in the national ethnic makeup. Nothing exposes the shallowness of this alleged tolerance more than the speed with which Muslim communities are now being told to "get out" (to quote Tory MP Gerald Howarth) in the name of core national values.

The real problem is not too much multiculturalism but too little. If the diversity now ghettoized on the margins of Western societies--geographically and psychologically--were truly allowed to migrate to the centers, it might infuse public life in the West with a powerful new humanism. If we had deeply multi-ethnic societies, rather than shallow multicultural ones, it would be much more difficult for politicians to sign deportation orders sending Algerian asylum-seekers to torture, or to wage wars in which only the invaders' dead are counted. A society that truly lived its values of equality and human rights, at home and abroad, would have another benefit too. It would rob terrorists of what has always been their greatest recruitment tool: our racism.
This was also on my mind because I heard Rush Limbaugh (an arch conservative for those lucky enough not to know) talking on the radio the other day as saying that the London bombings are "proof that multiculturalism is a failed systm."

So exaclty what IS the state of race relations in England? Do you feel that there's more xenophobia going on after the bombings?
Best First wrote:I thought we could just meander between making well thought out points, being needlessly immature, provocative and generalist, then veer into caring about constructive debate and make a few valid points, act civil for a bit, then lower the tone again, then act offended when we get called on it, then dictate what it is and isn't worth debating, reinterpret a few of my own posts through a less offensive lens, then jaunt down whatever other path our seemingly volatile mood took us in.

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Post by Impactor returns 2.0 » Fri Aug 12, 2005 12:22 am

I think that racist/stupid/ppl are going to target non white ethnic groups of a minority.

To be honest its pretty common, it doesnt matter what society u look at now, there will always be some stupid **** who targets some group for some reason.

I think right now ppl in the UK are feeling edgy, especially in London, but I dont belive the majority of UK ppl are not more xenophobic then before.

Personaly speaking, I hate religon, I dont dislike some because they are a muslim, I just feel that its stupid religon to follow, like others. but currently its a religon that fules moe hatred in the world then.
Now of course these ppl are not 'true' Muslims as we are told, and I belive that. but I know of no other force on this planet that can convince ppl to kill each other for nothing.

Im ****** off, I dont belive in religon, I think it for stupid ppl, and yet my world is now being destroyed by somthing that doesnt exist.
So am i bothered when a some stupid religous **** blow himself and others up in the name of some god?
Not really, im just ****** off I have to live on the same planet. I wish i could live on a planet of atheists, and religous ppl can live on another.

I hate religon, I ******* hate. sorry, no matter who u are, if I had a button to kill all religous ppl on earth for ever, id press it. twice.
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Post by Kaylee » Fri Aug 12, 2005 1:08 am

Truth in the article to be sure, also rather a great deal of trying to shift the blame onto 'us' (not sure if its politicians, local leaders or people in general) for not integrating people more.

Integration is a two person job I think, between the person immigrating and the person meant to accept them; I don't think its fair to say its just people here in Britain any more than the (majority of?) immigrators. Furthermore there are some aspects of British society regarding Islam that will always be able to be interpreted as us reinforcing 'colonial' style values imo- standards regarding equality of women for example.

Not sure where the author of the article learnt religion = race tho (racism is brought up many times with reference to Islam).

In truth I don't like arguments which essentially say we're to blame for everything; most people in this country are pretty decent as we are told most Muslims are. Doesn't seem fair to shoulder all of it on one side, rendering the other side totally innocent- in fact it sounds like a great way of breeding resentment I think.

Far better I think, and obviously infinitely more complicated, to try and appreciate there are faults on boths sides and to stop trying to lump everyone together into convenient groups (all asylum seekers are helpless and fleeing torture only to be persecuted by the evil British, or alternatively from the other side of the fence- all asylum seekers are sponging fanatics who never do a days work in their lives).

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Post by Impactor returns 2.0 » Fri Aug 12, 2005 8:06 am

id like to say i was drunk when posting, i must stop doing that.

but Karl I agree with sweeping genrilsations made on everyone in this country.
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Post by Kaylee » Fri Aug 12, 2005 8:16 am

Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:id like to say i was drunk when posting, i must stop doing that.

but Karl I agree with sweeping genrilsations made on everyone in this country.
yer. I know we have our nutjobs here but as a whole we're a pretty good bunch imo, else why would so many people want to come live here afterall?

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Post by Impactor returns 2.0 » Fri Aug 12, 2005 8:21 am

yeah because we have lots free western stuff, that is wrong in some religons, but come here and use it anyways, and then when u get bored, blow it up and stuff, and...

its to early for my brain...
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Post by Metal Vendetta » Fri Aug 12, 2005 11:00 am

OK they say you get more right-wing as you get older.

I have no problem with secular muslims. They're like the CofE of the muslim world in that they don't really give a ****, they just go to mosque twice a week, obserbve festivals and generally get on with life. Then you have the theocratic muslims who are sworn to detroy every democratic government in the world, east and west, until only Allah is in charge. Those I would round up and deport to a tiny little island somewhere.

But what really ****s me off is that I have to go out and work for a living. I pay taxes to help others less fortunate than myself, while [composite word including 'f*ck'] like Bakri, who has done nothing but spout hate against the British government and encouraged other muslims to fight against it has never done a decent day's work in his life and yet the British taxpayer has paid for his housing and food for the past 20-odd years. Not to mention that last year they gave him a £30,000 people carrier which he used to carry around members of his muslim hate cell, al-Majaroon or whatever it's called. And now he wants to come back and have a heart operation on the NHS.

This is stupid. What other country in the world feeds, houses, funds and ministers to those who have declared themselves sworn enemies?

My immediate reaction is the same as I gave to the Aussie guy who ranted at me for half an hour the other day about the bloody poms and how he was sick of how the bloody poms did this and the bloody poms did that...and I said well this is England, and if you don't like the way we do things here you're more than welcome to [composite word including 'f*ck'] off back home. If these muslim clerics face torture when they get back home, surely that's just an added bonus? If they are (like Bakri supposedly is) responsible for bombings in their own countries, why not send them back to face their own kind of homegrown justice?

Impy, you know I'm with you on the religious button thingy. Man, we could all go on holiday to the middle east and it would be lovely.

To get back to the topic, or something approaching it, I saw a dude getting stopped and searched at a tube station because he was a muslim. As the copper went through his stuff I overheard him saying: "I'm a muslim, but I'm not a real muslim. I don't believe in Allah or anything, I drink booze and I eat pork." Now that's proper multiculturalism. It's a little give and take from both sides. I don't think multiculturalism can work when (as in the case of theocratic Islam) one of the cultures wants to eradicate all of the others.

Oh and don't get me started on their treatment of women. Why we have to ignore blatant human rights abuses there for the sake of "cultural differences" is beyond me. Any culture that doesn't treat women as equals is not worth my time.
I would have waited a ******* eternity for this!!!!
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Post by spiderfrommars » Fri Aug 12, 2005 11:09 am

I'm afraid in my experience this country is rife with racism. Amazingly I have been beaten up for being a 'nigger' and I know plenty of people who think its acceptable to use terms like 'paki'. I blame education and parenting for the xenophobia that seeps through most facets of our society. But there has to be more to it than that... suffice to say I don't have much faith and have a low opinion of a lot of my fellow countrymen at the mo.

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Post by Jetfire » Fri Aug 12, 2005 1:47 pm

Well said Emvee. That's my rant right there :yes:

Sadly a lot of British problems is because the Givernment/Civil Service has dismantled people being proud to be British. The fact council's won't let pubs celebrate St George's day but will let virtually any other cultural day be celebrated is ludcrus.

We should be more like France (but of course not the french ;) ) in which the Law and respect for the country comes before everything. If someone breaks the law of pisses on the country they get the full punishment, prision, deportation, no pray rooms in holding cells, benifits are f##ked if you mess about with them. France has got it right and still remains a very liberal country with virtually the same laws as the UK.
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Post by Shanti418 » Fri Aug 12, 2005 1:47 pm

Impy and Emvee, could you at least agree that our Western racism, our Western history of centuries of colonialism and resources exploitation, and our Western embrace of vices like drugs and sex does nothing but help give rise to a virulent hate which feels that violence towards the civilian populace is the only way to have their voice heard?
Best First wrote:I thought we could just meander between making well thought out points, being needlessly immature, provocative and generalist, then veer into caring about constructive debate and make a few valid points, act civil for a bit, then lower the tone again, then act offended when we get called on it, then dictate what it is and isn't worth debating, reinterpret a few of my own posts through a less offensive lens, then jaunt down whatever other path our seemingly volatile mood took us in.

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Post by Jetfire » Fri Aug 12, 2005 2:00 pm

Shanti418 wrote:Impy and Emvee, could you at least agree that our Western racism, our Western history of centuries of colonialism and resources exploitation, and our Western embrace of vices like drugs and sex does nothing but help give rise to a virulent hate which feels that violence towards the civilian populace is the only way to have their voice heard?
Nope. Partly because only a particular group which so happens to have key individuals who benifit from hate are so anti-west and use cvarious excuses.

I am not seeing Hindu, Buddist, non--Europen Christians or Sikh suicide-bombers or preaching much hatred towards to west in general. I believe far more of these populations wer evictim of the West's colonialism than much of the Islamic world.

Islam has been victim to preachers of hate taking advantage of the general fundamentalism that dominates the religion and using it to falsely educate millions who have not receaved the education that say europeans have and lack the knowledge to really make their own decisions.
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Post by Metal Vendetta » Fri Aug 12, 2005 2:21 pm

Shanti418 wrote:Impy and Emvee, could you at least agree that our Western racism, our Western history of centuries of colonialism and resources exploitation, and our Western embrace of vices like drugs and sex does nothing but help give rise to a virulent hate which feels that violence towards the civilian populace is the only way to have their voice heard?
No - I sometimes feel my voice is not being heard in this society and there are many things I disagree with. I joined a million-strong protest march against the war and they went ahead with it anyway. But I don't blow people up over it because that would totally defeat the point.

Violence towards a civilian population only engenders hatred. How is it supposed to make anyone feel sympathy with your situation?
I would have waited a ******* eternity for this!!!!
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Post by Shanti418 » Fri Aug 12, 2005 4:23 pm

I'm not asking you to SYMpathize, I'm asking you to EMPathize.

I feel comparing years of exploitation and endorsement of violent and brutal regimes to war protests is a totally unusable analogy.

The point is, if we paint Arabs, or Muslims, or even fundamentalist Muslims, with a wide, demonizing brush, I think we're no better than them in many ways.
Best First wrote:I thought we could just meander between making well thought out points, being needlessly immature, provocative and generalist, then veer into caring about constructive debate and make a few valid points, act civil for a bit, then lower the tone again, then act offended when we get called on it, then dictate what it is and isn't worth debating, reinterpret a few of my own posts through a less offensive lens, then jaunt down whatever other path our seemingly volatile mood took us in.

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Post by Metal Vendetta » Fri Aug 12, 2005 5:01 pm

I can't empathise with people who have grown up in Britain, who have taken Britain's money for years and years, who have been given homes, sanctuary, food, medicines, even vehicles, who then say that they hate this society so much that they want to destroy it.

Colonialism was bad, yes, but I haven't read any of the bombers claiming that colonialism was their motivation for doing what they did. Mostly they seem to be upset over Iraq and Afhganistan. And I disagree with the current Bush administration's actions over Iraq and Tony Blair's steadfast lyalty to him, but it still doesn't excuse killing random people on their way to work.

I'm not trying to paint all Arabs and Muslims the same way. I travelled through Pakistan and met some wonderful people there. All men, of course, which was a little disappointing, but there you go. I share an office with a guy from Pakistan, who shares my love of rap music. Muslims are as diverse as everyone else is, I'm just saying that those who openly stand on the corner outside the mosque and urge their fellow muslms to rise up and fight against the state are dangerous and should not be allowed to continue. Particularly when we found that the 10 they arrested recently had claimed more than £500,000 in benefits from the British state. It's bad enough that they hate us, but to take advantage of us as well is rubbing salt into the wound. As does the fact that they use the notion of heaven to convince people to do these things, but that's another argument entirely.
I would have waited a ******* eternity for this!!!!
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Post by Impactor returns 2.0 » Fri Aug 12, 2005 5:02 pm

its a shame that certain groups dont think the same way isnt it. untill then more ppl wil die because thier belifes dont match our belifes.
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Post by Shanti418 » Fri Aug 12, 2005 5:55 pm

Metal Vendetta wrote:I can't empathise with people who have grown up in Britain, who have taken Britain's money for years and years, who have been given homes, sanctuary, food, medicines, even vehicles, who then say that they hate this society so much that they want to destroy it.
Empathy is awareness of the thoughts, feelings, or states of mind of others, perhaps by means of some degree of vicarious experience of others' feelings or mental states
So, in effect, you're saying that because you can't quickly understand their reasoning, or even find their actions to be lacking reason, you refuse to acknowledge their thoughts, feelings, and states of mind?
Best First wrote:I thought we could just meander between making well thought out points, being needlessly immature, provocative and generalist, then veer into caring about constructive debate and make a few valid points, act civil for a bit, then lower the tone again, then act offended when we get called on it, then dictate what it is and isn't worth debating, reinterpret a few of my own posts through a less offensive lens, then jaunt down whatever other path our seemingly volatile mood took us in.

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Post by Impactor returns 2.0 » Fri Aug 12, 2005 6:01 pm

I do.

thier reasoning is ****
thier actions are ****
thier thoughts are ****
thier feelings are ****
and
thier state mind is ****.

they are ****.

Not one of the above is worth more then **** - when it is, ill listen.
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Post by Impactor returns 2.0 » Fri Aug 12, 2005 6:05 pm

also your asking me to pay for my ancetsors past. im sorry if this country colanised the world, thats a totaly different subject.

but that doesnt give anyone the right to kill me

nor does if I want to do drugs, thats up to me. if that doesnt work with religon x, then sorry, but again u dont have the right to kill me.

so i do not sympathize with anyone who feels that killing random inocent ppl is the right things to do.

its ******* ****, and that entire concept is ******* crap
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Post by Metal Vendetta » Fri Aug 12, 2005 6:08 pm

I can't empathise with someone who is happy to live in our society and take advantage of all its many benefits yet claims that he wants to destroy it, no. I dopn't understand how a person who has been given a house and money and protection would seek to detroy the state that provided it. These people who have no compunction over killing and maiming random people are no better than serial killers or murderers and those who urge them to do it are no better. I'm sorry but that's the way it is. What do you want me to say, that I feel sorry for them? That I understand how hard life must be for them? That they must feel terribly angry because they didn't get enough love as a child?
I would have waited a ******* eternity for this!!!!
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Post by Impactor returns 2.0 » Fri Aug 12, 2005 6:11 pm

you know what, im going to kill Muslims, because they are against my religon, and well im just upset with how some of them behave, the ideals of the middle east, the way they behave. I dont even like the food they eat. so [composite word including 'f*ck'] me im going to kill them. and i hope i get one of the bad ones whilst i do it.

you see? read that, do u understand? that makes me a total ******* wanking.

but thats all these ppl who u want to sympathise with are doing. so if its hard for them its hard for me..



No, its bloody not!
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Post by Darth Aux » Fri Aug 12, 2005 6:39 pm

Religion should be band, it's only their to control the masses and because there are so many and each states that their teachings are the true faith, none shall ever get along/agree.

Things are only gonna get worse lets face it, America and Britain aren't gonna end their "Cru$ade" through Iraq anytime soon, the Iraqi terrorists and extremists in general aren't gonna stop their Campaign of terror. Despite the fact that Britain and America would have no leg to stand on (As far as remaining in Iraq is concerned) if there was peace in the country.

TBH I'm with Impy and MV, get all the religious leaders (Kings, Queens, Popes, All of them) and push the button. Your beliefs do not suit the modern world and only cause hatred and war.

FFS the church of England was set up by a King to enable him to get divorced. The Muslim faith has been twisted into some sort of hate bombing machine by extremists and the media.

I'd like to believe there is some greater being all around us. However, I will give my thanks in my way, not by conforming with some ideal. If god made me then I am a part of him, so i do not need a church or mosque for him to hear me.

So i have this to say, if you dislike my country F**K OFF TO SOMEWHERE ELSE YOU DO LIKE AND LEAVE US THE F**K ALONE! I think you'll find we'll give you the exact same wide birth.[/b]
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Post by Best First » Mon Aug 15, 2005 12:03 pm

Uh-huh.

Yes, **** off back where you came from, the epitome of proving we are the civilised ones.

I can empathise with people feeling they need to do what they did. Do I agree with it? No. Would it be my solution? No, but I can see the factors exist that point people in that direction.

As soon as you say things like 'their reasoning is ****' or dismiss these people as evil you rob yourself of the ability to ever combat what drives them to do what they do, because you dismiss it as inexplicable, or some kind of primal force. These people are human beings, therefore we have the capacity to understand (which in no way correlates to sympathise with or support, and anyone who tries to suggest otherwise is doing nothing but perpetuating division) them, and therein lies the path to resolution.

For example the fact that the government does not listen does not necessarily point to something not being your fault in someone else’s eyes. If my family are killed in Iraq by British forces, what do you suspect my knowledge of the UK is? That they have invaded and we are a democracy at best, therefore to some people I can see why they perceive that the war in Iraq was waged with a mandate from the British people. It is not true, but I can see why some people, given their situation, perceive it to be so.


As for history, saying we are being blamed for the actions of the past is all well and good but the fact is we continue to allow our governments to act in this fashion - we profit from arms sales, we support USA led imperialism, we invent elusive terms for the deaths of innocents, we benefit from trade set ups that cripple other countries.

Karl is right when he says the problem lies on both sides, and as long as 'we' or our political leaders continue to try and downplay our part then all we do is perpetuate the problem.

I also find the notion that more patriotism will somehow shore up this issue to be rather absurd - all that will lead to is more polarisation, in the same way religion does. My country is not better than other countries because I happen to have been born here, that is clearly as nonsensical as some big sky fairy saying people who join my gang are better than people who don't.

My basic contention is this - I don't think it is possible to prevent the emergence of twisted but charismatic individuals, people ranging from Hitler to Bin Laden, but what you can do is rob these people of support by genuinely making lies of what they preach. At the moment we don't do that and we show little intent, because so many people are trying to convince us that we are good and they are bad. They may be the latter, but if we are the former we aren't living up to it in international terms and if we fail to acknowledge that there are reasons that people do go bad then we will not live up to it on individual terms either.

So while I think some of the examples in the article are a bit warped, I agree with the basic point, although I suspect in many cases you could replace racism with apathy or ignorance - we are not bought up, certainly in terms of the education system, to really care about what our government does in our name or what is happening to people far away unless it has a direct impact on us. Perhaps if we, as a nation, actually had nothing to do with what was happening to people far away this would be less of an issue, but as it is, as a nation, this is not the case.

Naturally we should take some obvious security actions to prevent what we know to be innocent deaths, but our long term aim should be to put our house in order and rob terrorists of their ideological ammunition.

IMO, obviously.
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Post by Impactor returns 2.0 » Mon Aug 15, 2005 1:20 pm

I agree with what your saying, but I think one of the problems is the bit where U say if we try and understand why ppl go bad.

Isnt the problem that we cant ever possible understand because the reason they go bad is due to a twisted religous basis? and those ideas are almost impposible to deal with in any kind of logical way.

Hence, perhaps why as a nation we do tend to have general apathy because thier is lil we can do to reason with these minoritys?

just an idea.
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Post by Best First » Mon Aug 15, 2005 3:47 pm

Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:I agree with what your saying, but I think one of the problems is the bit where U say if we try and understand why ppl go bad.

Isnt the problem that we cant ever possible understand because the reason they go bad is due to a twisted religous basis?
How can it not be understandable? faith's pretty esay to understand, an incorrect approach from my perspective, but still understandable. Look at how people are raised, look at what they experience due to their skin colour, look at why they need to believe in something, look at how that leads to being susceptable to certain opinions.

Do you agree? No

Do you support it? No

Is it a thought process that has happend in another human being? Yes. Ergo it is possible to pick it apart and understand why they ended up at that conclusion, even if you also see where that conclusion is in fact unwarrented.

The problem is we look for excuses not to try and understand, not that it is not possible.

If you don't try and understand it how can you even justifiably condemn it as being wrong?

The relogion arguement doesn't work as a standalone anyway as otherwise why aren't all Muslims doing this? Or all religous people?
and those ideas are almost impposible to deal with in any kind of logical way.
People talk about terrorism as if it is some alien concept, but look at events in our history - look at Hiroshima, or the bombing of Dresdan - acts that specifcially targetted innocents in order to bring about an outcome we wanted. Are these actions impossible to understand?

The kneejerk reaction is 'but we were the good guys!' - but then the obvious response is 'why were we killing innocents to get what we wanted then?'. Its a muddy mudy area and those who seek to polarise things into good and evil try and rob us of the chance to understand both ourselves and those we find running at us with explosives strapped to them.

I notice you also say you would happily kill every religous person (which includes my Dad by the way, thanks) on the planet, which would probably make tyou the greatest murdered in histiory, yet you are saying you cannot possibly concieve of the idesa of someone whose faith would play a part in their justifying killing others to themselves?

Furthermore you are, to me anyway,never really aiming to deal with the current crop of terrorists, as you say they may be beyond reason, but to look to to prevent the emergence of more support. This can only be done by dealing with the circumstances and thought processes that turn 'normal' people into terrorists. And by that i do not mean some kind of capitualtion (except perhaps to our own conciences), but an aspiration to proving them genuinely wrong, rather than an aspiartion to do no more than convince ourselves that is the case and demonise the opostion as 'impossible to understand'. Nothing manmade is impossible to understand, because it is of us.

Its not neccessarily easy, but its possible and hardly the the alien concept that some of our leaders in the West are trying to paint it as, and to suggest otherwise is the path to ruin in my eyes.
Hence, perhaps why as a nation we do tend to have general apathy because thier is lil we can do to reason with these minoritys?
No way. I'm not talking about apathy to the cause of the terrorists, but apathy to the suffering they use to justify their actions. There is no causal link between finding it hard to understand terrorists motivations and our apathy/ignorance of how we as a nation act in the world and the suffering this sometimes causes. That's our responsibility and no one elses. Sorry, i think you are barking up the wrong tree there.
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Post by Impactor returns 2.0 » Mon Aug 15, 2005 4:26 pm

Fair enough, makes sense.

I have this scenario in my head where im sitting down with some terroist guy.

Terroist, - im going to kill you because of X,Y,Z
me, - But I understand you and I feel that your problems are due to my gov who wont listen to me.
Terroist, - im glad you understand, you wont mind dying for the cause then!
me, - oh...

How I feel is that there will always be somthing to piss off some radical extremist, and no matter how many concesions you make, I dont belive we as a nation can ever go far enough (everyone must be a muslim) to stop these ppl from having somthing to kill us over.

As for my view on killing every religous person. unfortuantly it hasnt changed much.
I mean, no christians, thats George Bush out the way,
No muslims, thats your radical nutjobs power and influence gone.

I belive this world would operate, at least sit down at tables to talk alot more then fight wars...

It actually hurts my head, it all seems to go around in circles, with different idealisms fighting each other over things that can never be resolved unless, as far as i can work out, democracy stands down. religon never will.
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Post by Shanti418 » Mon Aug 15, 2005 4:40 pm

Boy, I thought I had enunciated my position, and then BF comes in here and totally shows me how to do it. Nice job, sir.
Best First wrote:I thought we could just meander between making well thought out points, being needlessly immature, provocative and generalist, then veer into caring about constructive debate and make a few valid points, act civil for a bit, then lower the tone again, then act offended when we get called on it, then dictate what it is and isn't worth debating, reinterpret a few of my own posts through a less offensive lens, then jaunt down whatever other path our seemingly volatile mood took us in.

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Post by Best First » Mon Aug 15, 2005 4:43 pm

Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:Fair enough, makes sense.

I have this scenario in my head where im sitting down with some terroist guy.

Terroist, - im going to kill you because of X,Y,Z
me, - But I understand you and I feel that your problems are due to my gov who wont listen to me.
Terroist, - im glad you understand, you wont mind dying for the cause then!
me, - oh...

How I feel is that there will always be somthing to piss off some radical extremist, and no matter how many concesions you make, I dont belive we as a nation can ever go far enough (everyone must be a muslim) to stop these ppl from having somthing to kill us over.
The point, as i think i tried to make above, is not to appease or engage the 'radical nutjob', but to take away the facts he mixes with his dogma that give his cause credibility in some peoples eyes.

"The west does this and this! it is wrong" [/some truth]

"Ok, i see that, what is your solution"

"My ideas!"

Ok, that's very boiled down but take away the first part and you lose support and momentum. Thats all you can ever really spire to, but at the moment we largely add fuel to the fire (our global conduct) and make martyrs out of people.
As for my view on killing every religous person. unfortuantly it hasnt changed much.
I mean, no christians, thats George Bush out the way,
No muslims, thats your radical nutjobs power and influence gone.
so... you kill lots of people to get a few. why?

I belive this world would operate, at least sit down at tables to talk alot more then fight wars...[/quote]

...about how you killed my Dad, several of my friends, yes, the resentment would dry right up wouldn't it? Sorry but if that is your solution you are no better than anyone else who kills for their beliefs.
It actually hurts my head, it all seems to go around in circles, with different idealisms fighting each other over things that can never be resolved unless, as far as i can work out, democracy stands down. religon never will.
democracy needs to frigging stand up in the first place before you can put it that way IMO.
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Post by Impactor returns 2.0 » Mon Aug 15, 2005 5:01 pm

As im highly unlikely to ever kill anyone, religous or not, dont take it to seriously.

I really do hold the view tho, that if there was no religon this world would be a more peacefull and more productive for mankind, place to live.
Anyhows thats not going to happen either...

the concept in my mind at least does link to the problem I see with terroism tho. democracy like I was saying will sit at a table, and try to wrangle a deal out that suits both parties. but religon has no comprmise, its always going to be "my religous way, or u have offended my ppl" - this can lead to different actions by different groups as we know.

It creates racism due to conflict and in extream cases terroists.

How can democracy ever live with religon? its almost like having a communist and democratic gov at the same time.

As for taking the lies away from individuals such as bin laden etc... I also feel thats hard to do now what with the internet, and tv stations like 'al-jezzerah' (how ever u spell it) - your right, and i agree, its somthing for Muslims alike to do, to tell thier own that to follow these extream belifes is wrong. I just cant see that happening much, its far to democratic and western...

This is why I leave myself with such a black and white situation, no religon, or all religous, daft of course but I cant see the middle ground because when the muslim religon is exploited it has no comprimise.

Im lost
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Post by Best First » Mon Aug 15, 2005 5:17 pm

Impactor returns 2.0 wrote: I really do hold the view tho, that if there was no religon this world would be a more peacefull and more productive for mankind, place to live.
Anyhows thats not going to happen either...
some days i think this, others less so...

i think the aim should be to remove it from the public sphere and have that insetad based on logic and rationality.
[the concept in my mind at least does link to the problem I see with terroism tho. democracy like I was saying will sit at a table, and try to wrangle a deal out that suits both parties.
i suspect their are people in iraq who may thinkl otherwise. Again i think you ar ebuying into a myth of the West that is peddled by our leaders
but religon has no comprmise, its always going to be "my religous way, or u have offended my ppl" - this can lead to different actions by different groups as we know.

It creates racism due to conflict and in extream cases terroists.
How do you know it is ultmiatky the religion that creates terrorists? There have been socialist and communist terror groups, schools of thought that tend towards atheism.

I think it plays its part, but by sdaying 'this is teh reason' we go back to not really bothering to understand these people's motivations.
How can democracy ever live with religon?
By keeping religion private.
its almost like having a communist and democratic gov at the same time.
actually there have been democratically elected communist governments. Strangely the west wasn't willing to sit around a table with them by and large...
As for taking the lies away from individuals such as bin laden etc... I also feel thats hard to do now what with the internet, and tv stations like 'al-jezzerah' (how ever u spell it) - your right, and i agree, its somthing for Muslims alike to do, to tell thier own that to follow these extream belifes is wrong. I just cant see that happening much, its far to democratic and western...
Bit harsh on al-jezzerah from what i can gather, but you seem to be missing my point, its not about telling people they are wrong, its about proving them wrong, and that's not particularly western at all judging by history.

You talk about al-jazerah and the ineternext as if all they are doing us spreading lies, the fact is there are plenty of reasons for people to hate and feel persecuted by the UK.

and no i'm not saying that justifies killing innocent people, but it goes some way towards explaing why some people think otherwise.
This is why I leave myself with such a black and white situation, no religon, or all religous, daft of course but I cant see the middle ground because when the muslim religon is exploited it has no comprimise.
So as i say, take away the situations that allow it to be exploited in teh first place.
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