The "race' Thread

[Professor Smooth]

My "What is a racist" thread got me thinking about some of my personal views on race, gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation, etc. After I found that I was able to keep myself entertained for a bit, I figured I'd toss some of these thoughts onto the ol' interweb for consumption and regurgitation by other net-people.

So, here's the one that's been keeping me thinking for the last few hours.

I believe that "white" people are not the same as "non-white" people. Sure, both groups are people. Certainly, both groups are deserving of equal rights. But they're not the same. Saying that all people of all "colors" are the same is ignoring a couple thousand years of their different cultures. This is, of course, not a reason for discrimination based on race, or advocating making assumptions about a person based their racial/ethnic background. So while everyone is (should be?) equal, we're not all the same.

There are certain differences in the physical make-up of different races and genders as well. Men and women, for example. Men are, by nature, stronger and faster than women. This is why women do not compete in the same basketball or football leagues as men. Once again, while both sexes should be (imo) entitled to equal treatment under the law with equal rights and privilages, there are physical differences between the two. That's not to say that every male is stronger than every female. Considering the board I'm typing this on, I'm assuming at least a couple of you guys have had your asses handed to you by a woman at some point in your life.

[Kaylee]

i.e. there are generalisations which can be made about certain people based on single issues of their makeup which may or may not be true.

well... yes? Basically everyone is different and fits some stereotypes and defies others. Is it important?

[Denyer]

Saying that all people of all "colors" are the same is ignoring a couple thousand years of their different cultures.

Culture has very little to do with skin colour in my experience... and most people trace culture back about a generation, if that.

[Guest]

So while everyone is (should be?) equal, we're not all the same.

Reminds me of a phrase a friend of mine uses elsewhere:

"Normal is an average of all weirdness."


Make an Equality Compass (based on the Politcal Compass):

The position on the X- (or Traditional Equality) axis shows the betterness/worseness of an individual compared to the average.

The position on the Y- (or Innate Sameness) axis shows the differences between an indivudal and everyone else.

In an ideal Professor Smooth world, everyone should view everyone else as having the coordinates of (zero, nonzero), i.e. everyone is equal, but noone is the same.

In the real world, however, it looks more like a side-on hyperbola.

Treat everyone proportionally as dictated by their Equality Coordinates!


Sorry. My mind thinks up some crap, sometimes.

Better out than in, though!

[jboyler]

To add some more fuel to the fire:

I was reading a newspaper recently and a female said she "did not want to be treated the same as men, but be treated equally."

My shriveled, vegetative brain is still trying to figure this one out.

It sounds like she's saying "I want equal opportunity but not equal responsibility."

I think she means that she wants people to acknowledge the difference between men and women, and treat them differently when it is justified, but nonetheless treat them as equals and give them the same opportunities and responsibilities.

The problem is that sometimes people's gender or cultural background really do compromise their effectiveness.

1) Say a female worked at a job which required lots of physical labor. She tries hard, but cannot keep pace with her male counterparts. Is it right to fire her for not being as productive? What if she became pregnant and could not work? Is it right to fire her because she cannot do her job?

2) Now, say a black youth wants a job at my business. Being able to communicate effectively is important, but this kid only learned to speak "ebonics." Is it right to penalize him for not speaking clearly and effectively? Or am I obligated to accept and respect his cultural background, even if it ends up costing me?

Does racism always have to be arbitrary? If I base my prejudice on specific, measureable standards, am I still a racist/sexist? Or do I have to accept people in roles they are not qualified for, merely in the interest of fairness and equality?

And BTW, am I racist if I disagree with Affirmative Action?

-J

[IronHide]

No. Affirimative Action is crap bs.

[wideload]

To say races dont exist is total ********. By saying they dont exist you are ignoring suffering people might go through because of the colour of their skin. Also you are igonoring culture that a lot of people are very proud of.

The problem isnt in saying that races exist or even pointing out the differences. I think the problem is when you first make unfounded generalizations about people (although all generalization are not unfounded) and then apply them to individuals.

[Denyer]

I was reading a newspaper recently and a female said she "did not want to be treated the same as men, but be treated equally."

Equal in this context means equivalent rather than identical.

Unless you're campaigning for prostate health in women...

2) Now, say a black youth wants a job at my business. Being able to communicate effectively is important, but this kid only learned to speak "ebonics." Is it right to penalize him for not speaking clearly and effectively? Or am I obligated to accept and respect his cultural background, even if it ends up costing me?

There's nothing to stop employers selecting on the basis of language, dialect or manner. Ebonics is not synonymous with skin colour; it's a dialect.

To say races dont exist is total ********.

There aren't specific genetics. You can identify trends of development and DNA—genetic variation clustering around particular points of DNA that are present across the species. The bit people notice is melanin, controlled by tyrosinase.

By saying they dont exist you are ignoring suffering people might go through because of the colour of their skin.

Race exists as a social construction, it's just on shaky footing as distinct biological categories—the last major active group to take seriously those 'self-evident' categories were the Nazis.

Also you are igonoring culture that a lot of people are very proud of.

Traditions can be great, groupthink isn't. Dunno about you, but I'd rather meet people as individuals rather than based on a set of preconceptions about history they weren't even alive in...

[Jetfire]

Saying that all people of all "colors" are the same is ignoring a couple thousand years of their different cultures.

Culture has very little to do with skin colour in my experience... and most people trace culture back about a generation, if that.

Indeed. On another vein can anybody say there is "white" culture or "black" culture. No west Indiain I know is particulary fond of African's and go on to any football sites message board there is a huge divide in the UK between the north and south and then loads of regional differences. Liverpool and Man chester are virtually one city physically, but the people are so different in many ways.

[Kaylee]

I think we had this argument with Ultimate Weapon a while back. In my himble opinement its almost impossible to define someone as belonging to a culture or race to any meaningful degree. Too much crossbreeding, mixing of upbringings and so forth.

[Señior's Covenant]

Too much crossbreeding, mixing of upbringings and so forth.

Though, taking that sentence above out of context, there can never be too much in my humble opinion.

As once said, "Everyone just needs to [composite word including 'f*ck'] everyone else 'til everyone looks the same."

I'm doing my part dangit.

[Kaylee]

Too much crossbreeding, mixing of upbringings and so forth.

Though, taking that sentence above out of context, there can never be too much in my humble opinion.

As once said, "Everyone just needs to **** everyone else 'til everyone looks the same."

I'm doing my part dangit.

Er there can... nobody's crossbreeding with me without my explicit permission! can't just walk up and do it yanno... take a number and wait your turn...

[Jetfire]

Er there can... nobody's crossbreeding with me without my explicit permission! can't just walk up and do it yanno... take a number and wait your turn...

DAMN!

[Kaylee]

On the bright side I hear compys available

[Jetfire]

On the bright side I hear compys available

I want quality damnit!

[Kaylee]

On the bright side I hear compys available

I want quality damnit!

Course if you go private you get better service AND no waiting times

shall I fetch a price list?

[IronHide]

Karl Lynch - Crosbreeder for hire.

[saysadie]

Er there can... nobody's crossbreeding with me without my explicit permission! can't just walk up and do it yanno... take a number and wait your turn...

DAMN!

I think someone needs to explain the birds and the bees here.

[wideload]

There aren't specific genetics. You can identify trends of development and DNA—genetic variation clustering around particular points of DNA that are present across the species. The bit people notice is melanin, controlled by tyrosinase.

Race exists as a social construction, it's just on shaky footing as distinct biological categories—the last major active group to take seriously those 'self-evident' categories were the Nazis.

I totally agree. That's kind of what I meant. There are obviously genetic differences between people, but people and genetics exist along a spectrum, so there is no bilological sense to race. As a social construct it is unfortunately way too real.

Traditions can be great, groupthink isn't. Dunno about you, but I'd rather meet people as individuals rather than based on a set of preconceptions about history they weren't even alive in...

That was the second part of my post. Racial stereotypes have absolutely no meaning when applied on a individual level.