Estriol

[snarl]

maybe you're right, I don't know the timeline.

Is it really that bothering though?

[Metal Vendetta]

Well BumPrime got a column out of it, at least.

[Computron]

But I really didn't get the impression that JR had bowed to a load of self important "look at me" blogger *****.

I'm sure it's just a coincidence that self important "look at me" blogger ***** blogged about this and then tweeted JR about it and then JR was like, oh yeah, I'll delete that.

That's a bit post hoc ergo propter hoc isn't it tho?

Assuming we take Roberts at his word, and given that altering the content of a mass printing of trades is not something done on short notice, it sounds like Roberts was going to change estriol regardless of whether the blogger wrote anything at all.

Apparently he put the request in weeks prior to any twitter exchange. I sincerely doubt he received a tweet, immediately picked up the phone and in his best 1940's newsman voice yelled out "Stop the presses!"

In addition writers rewrite their stuff all the time. Arthur C. Clarke made an art of it. It's not mutually exclusive to have Roberts, via Rung, discuss the impacts of revisionism, while himself also revising his own work. I'm sure there are dozens of discarded edits, drafts and versions of MTMTE laying around. It's part of the writing process.

The way I see it is that Roberts looked over his work and noticed something wonky. If there has been a consistent paradigm in MTMTE regarding TF self identification, it's that it is a choice rather than, well, forged, for lack of a better term.

Whirl, who is an 80's action star given robot form, has a girl for an avatar. You could write for ages on Rewind and Chromedome's relationship on whether it is gay, straight or neither. Ultra Magnus also has a female avatar because he deeply respects Verity. In each case they chose that presentation of themselves, regardless of their spark types, because it represented something they liked, aspired to or otherwise thought reflected something in themselves.

Then Nautica comes along, and as an exception to the entire MTMTE ruleset, doesn't have a choice, but is instead assigned a spark that no one else has that pretty obviously correlates to estrogen. It raised the question whether she has the agency to self identify in the same way that Whirl does.

I'll be the first to admit that gender in TF has almost universally never been handled well. But that doesn't mean it can't be handled well, and I think Roberts saw a loose thread that could cause problems later on that he didn't want, namely that there is something fundamentally different about Nautica that "forces" her to be that way, which, naturally, goes against the idea of a race of shape-shifting, re-programmable, self aware, cybernetic organisms, who are constantly changing the way they look, speak and act.

[Metal Vendetta]

It's not mutually exclusive to have Roberts, via Rung, discuss the impacts of revisionism, while himself also revising his own work. I'm sure there are dozens of discarded edits, drafts and versions of MTMTE laying around. It's part of the writing process.

Rung describes it as a "profoundly aggressive act"; Roberts is all like, eh, it's no big deal. Roberts also seems to want us to judge him on what he's left behind, not what he's taken away - there's the mutual exclusion.

If there has been a consistent paradigm in MTMTE regarding TF self identification, it's that it is a choice rather than, well, forged, for lack of a better term.

I'm not so sure that's true at all - with the exception of Magnus, the holo-avatars in Cybertronian Homesick Blues all seem to have been auto-generated from the Transformers' psyches. I very much doubt Tailgate picked the alternate identity of a helpless infant for himself. Rung and Swerve certainly didn't pick their own names. Skids seemed quite confused by the psychic paper.

Whirl, who is an 80's action star given robot form, has a girl for an avatar.

The incredibly mentally damaged and traumatised Whirl, with massive issues regarding having bits of his body cut off*, has a girl for an avatar. We know from Mairghread Scott after the Spotlight: Arcee bullsh*t that the idea of being a woman having anything to do with mental illness or trauma is bad, but whatever. I'd also refute the idea that it's something he chose as he seemed genuinely surprised to find that it came with guns.

In each case they chose that presentation of themselves, regardless of their spark types, because it represented something they liked, aspired to or otherwise thought reflected something in themselves.

Nope, I don't think they did. I think it's quite explicit in the scene in the bar that Magnus chose Verity as his avatar but for the others it was something of a more random process. Let's not forget that Furman wrote Bumblebee and Sunstreaker with female avatars way back in Infiltration and no-one assumes that those characters are (or were) girls. Or if they do, they're idiots.

Then Nautica comes along, and as an exception to the entire MTMTE ruleset, doesn't have a choice, but is instead assigned a spark that no one else has that pretty obviously correlates to estrogen.

That's because Nautica has a completely different origin to the rest of the MTMTE cast. Am I the only one who actually read Windblade? Or Dark Cybertron, for that matter - because for all this talk of Whirl and co being free to self-identify as whatever they want, when the Caminus Three show up even Ratchet questions their use of pronouns and you'd think the party-loving Doc might have heard those before if everyone's adopting alternate genders aboard the Lost Light.

It raised the question whether she has the agency to self identify in the same way that Whirl does.

Assuming that Whirl has the "agency to self identify" in the first place, of course. I'd say that's far from proven, but it could have been solved at a stroke by having Nautica project a "male" holo-avatar at some point in the future. Job done: no need for an edit.

I think Roberts saw a loose thread that could cause problems later on that he didn't want, namely that there is something fundamentally different about Nautica that "forces" her to be that way, which, naturally, goes against the idea of a race of shape-shifting, re-programmable, self aware, cybernetic organisms, who are constantly changing the way they look, speak and act.

No Transformer, as far as I'm aware, has the ability to change their spark-type otherwise the whole Lost Light crew would have switched to Vitreous-Positive and gone back in time with Roddy to stop Brainstorm. An Estriol-Positive spark-type limits Nautica exactly as much as a Vitreous-Positive spark limits Rewind or Whirl - which is apparently not at all if Rewind can be "gay, straight or neither" and Whirl "has the agency to self identify". Hey, let's go full SJW here, its deliberate omission means James Roberts thinks that cis-females can't be those things, which is obviously insulting to cis-lesbians and transmen. That's how stupid this argument is.

*There are lots and lots of pseudo-Freudian observations to be made here, but I hate pseudo-Freudianism so I'll leave them to your imagination.

[Professor Smooth]

I would think that the Estriol thing would be viewed as even *more* supportive of LBGT issues, in that it's just one more way of "being female". Some bots *become* female (or explicitly male, I guess). Others are *born* that way. It breaks down gender roles/assignment even more than before (and let's be clear, those had been broken down to a fine powder long ago).

To read anything even remotely anti-LBGT into the existence of Estriol is, I think, just a bit of tilting and windmills.

By the by, I *hate* the term Social Justice Warrior/SJW. It's especially ridiculous as term meant to insult somebody. "S/he's in favor of equal treatment for everybody! What a ****, right?" I see it mostly thrown around by the "stop being intolerant of my intolerance" crowd. And while I think some people can go to far, seeing enemies where none exist, and just spoiling for a fight, I don't for a minute doubt that their collective heart is in the right place.

[Computron]

It's not mutually exclusive to have Roberts, via Rung, discuss the impacts of revisionism, while himself also revising his own work. I'm sure there are dozens of discarded edits, drafts and versions of MTMTE laying around. It's part of the writing process.

Rung describes it as a "profoundly aggressive act"; Roberts is all like, eh, it's no big deal. Roberts also seems to want us to judge him on what he's left behind, not what he's taken away - there's the mutual exclusion.

Roberts isn't Rung tho. I mean, I understand that Rung can be viewed as expressing Roberts' thoughts in some ways, but that doesn't necessarily hold, unless we are to assume that Tarn also reflects Roberts' inner monologue? Again, we are begging the question by assuming that Rung is repeating verbatim Roberts' own thoughts, when honestly, we don't know that.

In any case even if he is reflecting his thoughts, let's take Rung's analysis to its conclusion. Let's judge Roberts on what he has taken away. He took away the word "estriol" because he felt it did not fit in the story that he was writing. As the author, he does have the right to craft the story he believes best tells what he wants to say. We can of course critique the story and see if it succeeds or fails, but every author has the right to tell the tale the way they want it told. (Assuming it isn't some historical documentary I suppose.)

In addition, when you say "Roberts seems to want us to judge him on what he's left behind..." that statement worries me because the word "seems" is devoid of support. I didn't find any mention where Roberts said not to judge him on his edit, in fact, his explanation of his edit seems to suggest the opposite, that he wants people to understand why he edited it, so readers could make their own judgment.

You can believe that the edits came under pressure from a random blogger on the internet, but I don't think the evidence supports that conclusion. He indicated that the decision was weeks in the making and came around due to the trade paperback being printed. Again, I don't see him messing about with the printing schedule at the last moment to change one word. It makes more sense that this was planned long before this blog appeared.

If there has been a consistent paradigm in MTMTE regarding TF self identification, it's that it is a choice rather than, well, forged, for lack of a better term.

I'm not so sure that's true at all - with the exception of Magnus, the holo-avatars in Cybertronian Homesick Blues all seem to have been auto-generated from the Transformers' psyches. I very much doubt Tailgate picked the alternate identity of a helpless infant for himself. Rung and Swerve certainly didn't pick their own names. Skids seemed quite confused by the psychic paper.

I'll admit that I doubt Tailgate explicitly desired to be an infant, but, we know that the avatars can be chosen, which suggests that any TF can choose an avatar, unless there is something about UM that makes him special?

Whirl, who is an 80's action star given robot form, has a girl for an avatar.

The incredibly mentally damaged and traumatised Whirl, with massive issues regarding having bits of his body cut off*, has a girl for an avatar. We know from Mairghread Scott after the Spotlight: Arcee bullsh*t that the idea of being a woman having anything to do with mental illness or trauma is bad, but whatever. I'd also refute the idea that it's something he chose as he seemed genuinely surprised to find that it came with guns.

When I read that scene, I didn't associate Whirl's female avatar as having any connection to his own internal psychosis. I mean clearly part of it was for humor, but Whirl could have easily had a male avatar, and would we associate that with mental trauma? I don't view Whirl's avatar as being in conflict with anything Mairghread Scott wrote.

In each case they chose that presentation of themselves, regardless of their spark types, because it represented something they liked, aspired to or otherwise thought reflected something in themselves.

Nope, I don't think they did. I think it's quite explicit in the scene in the bar that Magnus chose Verity as his avatar but for the others it was something of a more random process. Let's not forget that Furman wrote Bumblebee and Sunstreaker with female avatars way back in Infiltration and no-one assumes that those characters are (or were) girls. Or if they do, they're idiots.

I think the takeaway are that the avatars can sometimes represent internal views of gender, and sometimes are just Halloween costumes. Or as in Magnus' case they represent someone he respects. I don't think that Bumblebee having a female avatar means he is female anymore than having a male avatar means anything, and I think that's Roberts' point when he took away the Estriol spark type. TFs are way too malleable to be reduced to simple descriptors like that.

Then Nautica comes along, and as an exception to the entire MTMTE ruleset, doesn't have a choice, but is instead assigned a spark that no one else has that pretty obviously correlates to estrogen.

That's because Nautica has a completely different origin to the rest of the MTMTE cast. Am I the only one who actually read Windblade?

Probably. I didn't read it.

Or Dark Cybertron, for that matter - because for all this talk of Whirl and co being free to self-identify as whatever they want, when the Caminus Three show up even Ratchet questions their use of pronouns and you'd think the party-loving Doc might have heard those before if everyone's adopting alternate genders aboard the Lost Light.

Honestly, I don't know why Ratchet would be surprised about that. Then again, we're trying to fit a Male/Female duality on a race of robots, so things aren't always going to work out cleanly. Part of this is that the writers are, in a real way, making this up as they go along to, which will probably result in continuity errors.

It raised the question whether she has the agency to self identify in the same way that Whirl does.

Assuming that Whirl has the "agency to self identify" in the first place, of course. I'd say that's far from proven, but it could have been solved at a stroke by having Nautica project a "male" holo-avatar at some point in the future. Job done: no need for an edit.

Who knows, perhaps she will?

I think Roberts saw a loose thread that could cause problems later on that he didn't want, namely that there is something fundamentally different about Nautica that "forces" her to be that way, which, naturally, goes against the idea of a race of shape-shifting, re-programmable, self aware, cybernetic organisms, who are constantly changing the way they look, speak and act.

No Transformer, as far as I'm aware, has the ability to change their spark-type otherwise the whole Lost Light crew would have switched to Vitreous-Positive and gone back in time with Roddy to stop Brainstorm. An Estriol-Positive spark-type limits Nautica exactly as much as a Vitreous-Positive spark limits Rewind or Whirl - which is apparently not at all if Rewind can be "gay, straight or neither" and Whirl "has the agency to self identify". Hey, let's go full SJW here, its deliberate omission means James Roberts thinks that cis-females can't be those things, which is obviously insulting to cis-lesbians and transmen. That's how stupid this argument is.

*There are lots and lots of pseudo-Freudian observations to be made here, but I hate pseudo-Freudianism so I'll leave them to your imagination.

I honestly do not understand your point here. I view spark types as akin to blood types. Men and women share O-neg, A, AB etc. It has no impact on gender or sex.

Estriol on the other hand was a clear reference to estrogen, which was a much more hard coded representation of gender than previously seen in TF lore, as far as I am aware. Roberts didn't like the implications of spark types being related to gender so he removed it. To me it would be like he invented a new blood type only for women, and then got rid of it after sensing how difficult that would be to work with in the future.

I really don't understand how removing estriol means Roberts suddenly has a view of cis-lesbians that is insulting.

[Metal Vendetta]

Okay, since SJW doesn't seem to be a popular term around these parts, what about "professional offence-taker" or "identity-politics grievance-monger"? Better or worse?

Roberts isn't Rung tho. I mean, I understand that Rung can be viewed as expressing Roberts' thoughts in some ways, but that doesn't necessarily hold, unless we are to assume that Tarn also reflects Roberts' inner monologue?

When Roberts refers to Tarn as his "Mary Sue", I'll attach a bit more weight to his speeches.

Let's judge Roberts on what he has taken away... he wants people to understand why he edited it, so readers could make their own judgment.

That's just what I'm doing - I judge him as having made entirely the wrong decision.

He indicated that the decision was weeks in the making

If he'd been up front about this to begin with, or maybe opened a dialogue about it beforehand then I don't think I'd have such an issue with it but even if that's true, all this only came out after the event, through chummy tweets with the afore-mentioned professional offence-taking grievance-monger.

I'll admit that I doubt Tailgate explicitly desired to be an infant, but, we know that the avatars can be chosen, which suggests that any TF can choose an avatar, unless there is something about UM that makes him special?

Rank? Prior experience with humans and/or recordings of Verity?

When I read that scene, I didn't associate Whirl's female avatar as having any connection to his own internal psychosis.

Of course an avatar auto-generated by his psyche would have no connection to his own internal psychosis. *facepalm*

I don't view Whirl's avatar as being in conflict with anything Mairghread Scott wrote.

So Scott's badly thought out grievances only apply to Furman's work, but not Roberts'.

I think the takeaway are that the avatars can sometimes represent internal views of gender, and sometimes are just Halloween costumes.

So basing an argument on them such as "Whirl has the agency to self-identify" is, at best, speculation. When in doubt, apply Hitchens's Razor.

I really don't understand how removing estriol means Roberts suddenly has a view of cis-lesbians that is insulting.

My point is that makes exactly as much sense as the reasons for removing it in the first place - if you're a professional identity-politics grievance-monger, you can find a reason to be offended at pretty much anything.

[Computron]

Okay, since SJW doesn't seem to be a popular term around these parts, what about "professional offence-taker" or "identity-politics grievance-monger"? Better or worse?

To me those terms are still loaded, because often enough, the first response to any sort of movement towards addressing some sort of problem is that those who are offended are the ones being irrational, as opposed to the people actually being harmful. It's a way of ignoring the criticism by painting the complainant as a rabble-rouser.

I'm not saying there aren't people who tack on to controversies as a way to advance ancillary agendas, but if the first response to any criticism is to immediately apply a label that disparages and dismisses the person, then that is a problem.

TL,DR; why not call her "The Blogger?"

When Roberts refers to Tarn as his "Mary Sue", I'll attach a bit more weight to his speeches.

Again, writers can often speak through characters, but that doesn't mean the writer is the character. Rung is his own character. I think it is a huge jump to attribute everything Rung says as if Roberts believes it 100% himself.

That's just what I'm doing - I judge him as having made entirely the wrong decision.

That's perfectly fair, and highlights that Roberts isn't being hypocritical.

If he'd been up front about this to begin with, or maybe opened a dialogue about it beforehand then I don't think I'd have such an issue with it but even if that's true, all this only came out after the event, through chummy tweets with the afore-mentioned professional offence-taking grievance-monger.

Do publishers routinely inform consumers of the edits they make prior to publishing? Perhaps they do sometimes, but I bet that for the most part they don't.

As for why Roberts didn't mention it, as BF said "Or to put it another way i didn't even ****ing notice Nautica's spark type."

I understand it was a major change for you, but for others it really wasn't. For Roberts it was a change worth making, but it was worth making because he realized that it was giving the false impression that estriol meant something when he clearly didn't want it to.

I know you are suspicious of the timing, but at the end of the day, that's really all you have. Suspicion.

We have to look at what is credible. In the first instance, Roberts says he ordered these edits several weeks prior to the blog post. He didn't make an explanation because, frankly, estriol sparks didn't exactly seem to be a hot button issue until someone wrote about it. Then he wrote an explanation and that's that.

The alternate explanation is that Roberts didn't order said changes, and then when some random blogger wrote about it, he decided to have an entire print run changed in order to appease those who had taken offence. However, for no clear reason, Roberts then decided to lie about it and say he ordered the changes several weeks prior.

Unless you really want to go out on a limb and say that Roberts lied and constructed a story about having ordered these edits weeks ago, I think it is fair to say that the most credible explanation is the first one.

Rank? Prior experience with humans and/or recordings of Verity?

Which supports my point that any TF can modify how they appear, and have it reflect something they identify within themselves.

Of course an avatar auto-generated by his psyche would have no connection to his own internal psychosis. *facepalm*

I admit I worded that poorly, but you are ignoring the next part. I didn't associate the fact that the avatar was female with Whirl's psychosis. The eyepatch, the guns, the punk look, absolutely matched Whirl's inner issues. The fact that it was a girl didn't strike me as coming from his psychopathy any more than if it had been a male avatar.

So Scott's badly thought out grievances only apply to Furman's work, but not Roberts'.

I think her point applies to both and as I explained above I don't think the gender of Whirl's avatar is any reflection of his psychosis.

So basing an argument on them such as "Whirl has the agency to self-identify" is, at best, speculation. When in doubt, apply Hitchens's Razor.

Not quite. We know that TF's can choose their avatars. We have canonical proof of that via Ultra Magnus. We also have circumstantial evidence that avatars can, in part, involuntarily reflect aspects of the character (Tailgate's avatar being an infant for instance)

We also know that TF's are constantly tinkering with themselves and can change or update nearly everything about themselves.

Finally, we also know that Whirl is a Transformer.

We can deduce from that if TF's can modify their appearance, and have, at least some capacity to choose their avatars, that Whirl has the agency to choose how his avatar appears.

I don't think this is a controversial point or even one alien to humanity. We all have personalities that influence how we think and behave. But we also have, absent philosophical debate, free will to choose how we act. Sometimes what we want to do conflicts with our desires.

For example. our personality may want to scream and yell at someone who offended us, but we choose to project a calm demeanour. Sometimes it is the reverse. We intuitively know we should be calmer, but decide to let loose and be angry.

A Transformer's avatar can be similar, a mix of choice and "personality." It's a thought.

My point is that makes exactly as much sense as the reasons for removing it in the first place - if you're a professional identity-politics grievance-monger, you can find a reason to be offended at pretty much anything.

You're begging the question tho. By assuming the author to be a professional grievance monger, you've already given yourself the very ability to reject anything said by the author because you've already determined her to be a grievance monger. You've poisoned the well and I think it clouds your ability to see my point that the estriol spark removal really is making a mountain not just out of a molehill, but of a flat desert.

[bumblemusprime]

Well BumPrime got a column out of it, at least.

which inspired 6 pages of debate and a locked thread at IDW.

Until I get a Hugo, that'll have to be my proudest moment.

[Metal Vendetta]

Rung is his own character. I think it is a huge jump to attribute everything Rung says as if Roberts believes it 100% himself.

I'm divided on that. While Rung is his own character, I also see him as Roberts' mouthpiece on the Lost Light - for a start, he gets the snarky one-liners and takes the piss out of the other characters. I'm not saying that he's alone in that, for example, Megatron's recent speech about the whole situation being ridiculous is obviously a bit of Roberts showing through, but if I had to pick a character from the series who I thought represented Roberts, that's who I'd pick.

A Transformer's avatar can be similar, a mix of choice and "personality." It's a thought.

And Rung's avatar happens to look like a caricature of Roberts. You can't really have it both ways.

As for why Roberts didn't mention it, as BF said "Or to put it another way i didn't even ****ing notice Nautica's spark type."

Ah, so it's my fault for remembering things and investing in the fiction. I should pay less attention to what I read in future.

I didn't associate the fact that the avatar was female with Whirl's psychosis.

I didn't read Spotlight: Arcee and think that Furman was saying that being a woman was inherently traumatic or linked with mental issues, but apparently that's the message some people took from it. And they were offended, so obviously their point of view is "worth" more.

By assuming the author to be a professional grievance monger, you've already given yourself the very ability to reject anything said by the author because you've already determined her to be a grievance monger.

I haven't assumed anything - I've read what "The Blogger" wrote and drawn my conclusions from that. Incidentally, the "End of Page 3" fiasco on the Guardian message boards has thrown up a term I find I prefer to any of the above: "outragette".

You've poisoned the well and I think it clouds your ability to see my point that the estriol spark removal really is making a mountain not just out of a molehill, but of a flat desert.

So you don't think "The Blogger" saying

I think [Nautica's] expression is appropriate to the prospect of her being used as the Cybertronian equivalent of "only cis women are real women."

is making a mountain out of a molehill, but I am?

[Best First]

but if the first response to any criticism is to immediately apply a label that disparages and dismisses the person, then that is a problem.

QFT.

So.... is this about ethics in comic book writing or what?

[snarl]

My head hurts.

[snarl]

But seriously, is this the crux of MV's argument:

Some gay snakes got upity at JR for Estriol.
JR bottled it because of the pressure from the gay snakes and edited it out of existence.
Apparently Estriol was possibly the most ******* earth shattering thing ever in MTMTE
So now MV is furious at having it robbed away him, and thinks JR is a **** for binning it as a concept.
And he hates all the gay snakes for pressuring JR till they got their own way casuse that ruined all his (potential) fun.

If somebody could confirm that as accurate...

[Metal Vendetta]

Apparently Estriol was possibly the most ******* earth shattering thing ever in MTMTE

Well who knows? MTMTE is full of tiny details that go on to have earth shattering consequences further down the line. Except in this case we'll never know because it was "potentially problematic".

So now MV is furious at having it robbed away him, and thinks JR is a **** for binning it as a concept.

I wouldn't say I was furious, but yeah, I think he's a **** for binning it as a concept.

And he hates all the gay snakes for pressuring JR till they got their own way casuse that ruined all his (potential) fun.

Couldn't give a **** about the "gay snakes", I'd just like to read a comic that doesn't have to be decided on by a ****ing committee of outragettes first.

[snarl]

Cool.

For the record, I don't think there's much evidence hence don't share your view that the comic's direction is being decided by outragettes.

If they are though, thank [composite word including 'f*ck'] for me they only seem to be interested in kiboshing parts of the comic that I personally consider ******* ****.

In fact if they are able to veto things, I'd be quite interested in joining.

Does anybody know how one can become a gay snake?

I've got quite a lot of work to do with RiD, so the sooner you let me know the better.

And here's a link that may be useful:

http://goo.gl/qVY2hK

[Metal Vendetta]

but if the first response to any criticism is to immediately apply a label that disparages and dismisses the person, then that is a problem.

QFT.

Bull****. There are people whose opinions you would dismiss instantly - I mean, I can't imagine you saying: "You know, we should give careful consideration to what Nigel Farage says about immigration." You'd say: "He's a right-wing ****wit." Just because everyone's entitled to an opinion doesn't mean that all opinions are equally valid.

[Best First]

There are people whose opinions you would dismiss instantly.

That list does indeed keep getting longer.

Maybe i am still just hung up on the utter dipstickery of SJW as an insult. Or that i think your anger is misdirected and ill justified. No need to rearticulate Comp's points as to why but i agree with everything he has said.

Regardless i think you are coming off as something of a greivence monger.

Also if you don't want to read a comic that is being decided by committee and are of the not in the least bit insanse belief that this is a comic that is being decided by a committee rather than probably the most singular vision anyone has ever had on TFs... don't read it.

[Metal Vendetta]

Maybe i am still just hung up on the utter dipstickery of SJW as an insult.

Is it because I didn't post "Trigger Warning" first? Should I "check my privilege"? Maybe you just need SJW-to-skeleton?

Or that i think your anger is misdirected and ill justified.

I'm not particularly angry, I'd say concerned, perturbed or at most, vexed.

You said earlier in the thread that the scales have finally fallen from your eyes regarding female Transformers - well, the scales have been off my eyes since the late nineties - I was a massive Blackarachnia fan since her first appearance, I'm also down with Airazor, Botanica, Antagony, Flip Sides, Howlback, Road Rage, Shadow Striker, Roulette... Arcee on a good day, so probably not when Barber's writing her... and some of the others I'm not so keen on. Now we get female Transformers in IDW and while I'm not sold on Windblade and I ****ing hate Chromia, I thought Nautica was pretty neat. And I've read all of Windblade cover to cover (about five times now) which it appears is more than anyone else did.

Regardless i think you are coming off as something of a greivence monger.

Oh right, well, er, hooray for a lack of diversity! Isn't it great that naturally-occurring females had to be edited out? This is indeed a fine day for gender in Transformers, because who wants those yucky female hormones messing up our favourite 'bots? We don't want any of that "problematic" œstrogen around here! Is that better?

[snarl]

Why do you care so much about gender in transformers?

This edit is ridiculously tiny and you're going dolally over it. And imo making yourself look like a massive, hysterical, paranoid ****

Why can't you just ******* get over it?

Have you got no sexual organs yourself, is that it?

[bumblemusprime]

Barber did write Arcee's greatest line of all time. "Don't worry Ratbat, I won't kill you. No, I'm kidding."

[Metal Vendetta]

Why do you care so much about gender in transformers?

From my first post in this thread:

So yeah, I think this was a bad call by Roberts. I know it's only a minor thing and I really shouldn't care

I thought it was inconsistent, hypocritical bullsh*t and I cared precisely enough to start a thread about it on a neglected messageboard in a near-forgotten corner of the fandom. Bumblemus thought enough people would care that he wrote an article about it, me and Compy argued back and forth as to what exactly constitutes gender in IDW's Transformers anyway, you contributed some of your legendary snarlos "wit" and BF got all self-righteous and patronising.

Isn't that what we do here?

[Impactor returns 2.0]

I'd just like to point out that I completely missed the point.

So buissnes as usual then?

[Best First]

Should I "check my privilege"?

Given you seem to think that reading Windblade repeatedly entitles you to some kind of special treatment yes that might be an idea. Actually i do think this entitles you to a form of treatment but probably not the kind you desire.

Regardless i think you are coming off as something of a greivence monger.

Oh right, well, er, hooray for a lack of diversity! Isn't it great that naturally-occurring females had to be edited out? This is indeed a fine day for gender in Transformers, because who wants those yucky female hormones messing up our favourite 'bots? We don't want any of that "problematic" œstrogen around here! Is that better?[/quote]

So... you are fighting for social justice?

Seems like a ridiculous extrapolation based on one minor change to me - the notion of gender remains largely unexplored in IDW beyond the use of pronouns so far - Roberts redacting one thing does not, in any way, mean that naturally occuring females have been edited out, as we have yet to get to a full explanation of gender, if we ever will.

But by all means assume otherwise and have a paddy about it, and then a further one when people question the rationale for paddy number one.

BF got all self-righteous and patronising

If anyone want's chip in for Rob's new greenhouse i have the envelope.

[Metal Vendetta]

Given you seem to think that reading Windblade repeatedly entitles you to some kind of special treatment yes that might be an idea.

In an argument that relies upon knowing the plot details established in Windblade, I thought that having actually read Windblade might be a bit of a prerequisite. I don't think that "entitles me to special treatment", but I do think it entitles me to "know what the **** I'm talking about". Still, if you really want to spout opinions based on something you know nothing about, go right ahead, I'm not going to stop you.

So... you are fighting for social justice?

****ing hell no, not unless pointing out gaping inconsistencies in the way a toy robot comic handles gender on here counts as "fighting". I'd make a terrible social justice warrior, I'm a cisgendered heteronormative patriarchal 1%er straight white male for a start.

Seems like a ridiculous extrapolation based on one minor change to me

The whole "case" against Estriol was a ridiculous extrapolation in the first place, which was kind of the whole point of the thread. If its presence was "problematic" then by the very same criteria its removal is equally "problematic".

But by all means assume otherwise and have a paddy about it, and then a further one when people question the rationale for paddy number one.

Oh, the irony of being lectured by someone using a racially-charged term for tantrum is exquisite. I have a plastic greenhouse, incidentally.

[Computron]

In an effort at reducing the argument to its core then, let me ask, "MV, do you believe Roberts was telling the truth when he said that this change was already in the works weeks prior to the blog post?"

[Brendocon]

Gender in Transformers: Causing fan arguments 1985-date

[Metal Vendetta]

In an effort at reducing the argument to its core then, let me ask, "MV, do you believe Roberts was telling the truth when he said that this change was already in the works weeks prior to the blog post?"

That's a good question, 'cause it did seem a bit unlikely that James Roberts came to this conclusion independently of the ridiculously extrapolated down-the-rabbit-hole "case" made by the blogger.

So I went and attempted the impossible and tried to search tumblr to return relevant content in some semblance of chronological order. Tumblr, hilariously, doesn't attach dates to posts, because no-one would ever want or need to know when something was posted, obviously.

The best I've found so far is this post from six months ago which as far as I can tell is the same point as the blogger's, but written in something very nearly approaching actual English. It's obviously an entirely reasonable point, because as with all entirely reasonable points it starts with a false premise and continues with "I don't care what the explanation is". Also, on the left it says "Storm. Australia." which is sending my Tim Minchinometer into the red.

So on reflection, yes I think he was telling the truth with regard to the blogger, they were probably both inspired by this tumblr post or another like it, which gives an equally bullsh*t reason as to why the whole thing was problematic in the first place.

[Yaya]

Why do you care so much about gender in transformers?

This edit is ridiculously tiny and you're going dolally over it. And imo making yourself look like a massive, hysterical, paranoid ****

Why can't you just ******* get over it?

Have you got no sexual organs yourself, is that it?

If I enjoy anything at all out of this thread, it's snarlz.

There is no such thing as robot gender in the mind of Yaya. In the mind of Yaya, Transformers are asexual mechanical beings.....with feelings.



You may commence with "in the mind of Yaya" jokes now.

[bumblemusprime]

Well, if nothing else, this thread got me to read Windblade. It wasn't bad. I liked looking at Starscream as a leader--running shady mining operations, but not actively trying to kill inconvenient people. At least not clumsily trying to kill inconvenient people, which seems to be Chromia's MO.

Sarah Stone needs to learn to draw backgrounds. The story illustrated just how ******* terrible the Windblade figure is with the ridiculous stilettos and geisha face. I didn't really buy the end. If Chromia is willing to set off bombs just to convince Windblade to leave, she's psychotic and needs to be locked up.

[Best First]

i found it pretty dull, even though i apparently have not read it. Or more specifically Windblade herself is pretty dull. And it was rather Furmanesque in that it had a better build up than conclusion.

"i did it"

"oh, ok, we will let you off then"

i liked the art by and large.