RID #15 Review

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Post by Kaylee » Fri Mar 29, 2013 3:43 pm

Err... the problems you seem to be having come not so much from you 'missing' something in RiD, as inserting things from the TFWiki that haven't appeared in the books.

Show me the bit in any IDW comic where it's established Devastator has trouble functioning because his component parts didn't get along. On the other hand, in the last issue of RiD there was a specific bit of exposition about how they *did* get along, and that's why Devastator is the only successful gestalt. It's not 'implied' - it's info-dumped!
I'm inserting something from nearly 30 years of TF lore because nothing told me otherwise. I assume Prime is their leader, Megatron is bad and Blurr is a bit nippy unless told otherwise. I assumed the components didn't get on, and that this would be exacerbated by mixing in an Autobot, because that's how it's been before and I didn't know any better here.

What appears to you as an info dump just sounded like a contrivance to move the story along to me, given it happened a page before the big reveal of Prowlestator. I didn't get it was a throwback to something given in a previous IDW title which I hadn't read. Mostly because I hadn't read it.

Perhaps it's telling at this point that I can't tell contrived scripting and errors from accepted lore from previous IDW titles. Whether it's telling regarding the writing or me remains to be seen.

As you're not offended, which I'm happy about, then FYI starting a direct reply with 'Oh come on' is less effective than saying 'It turns out All Hail Megatron established that, in IDW, the combiner process is far more tight and effective, making Devastator a much more destructive weapon'. That single sentence would have saved me writing about 4 screens of TL;DR twaddle, working backwards to grasp why this key aspect of the story makes sense to you :)

:lol:

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Post by Jack Cade » Fri Mar 29, 2013 4:12 pm

I'm inserting something from nearly 30 years of TF lore ...
Because Devastator's component parts not getting along came across so strongly in the Sunbow cartoon? :eyebrow:

I wasn't even aware of this trait - is it anything more than a single line in his original techspecs? It might have been in the Marvel comics, but I don't remember. I recall *Bruticus* having this flaw because the Combaticons all hate Onslaught, but I'd never picked it up with regard to Devastator.

More importantly, if what you're saying is that IDW have to make it amply clear wherever their story deviates from previous portrayals of the characters in other continuities in order to stop you and others assuming it's all the same, that puts a heavy burden on the writers in terms of exposition. Every time a new character is introduced, they'd have to put in a text box explaining what aspects can be carried over and which should be ignored, or else we'd be asking: why doesn't Soundwave just read everyone's minds? Why doesn't Springer spring? Where's Cliffjumper's glass gun?

I apologise if some of my phrasing is quite strong - the internet doesn't carry tone well. You should assume that I'm generally conversing in the spirit of a hearty debate unless I start using phrases like 'completely inappropriate'.
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Post by Yaya » Fri Mar 29, 2013 5:17 pm

Jack Cade wrote: The ridiculous deficit of Autobots over the whole run of the series now culminates in a pretty silly battle, with Barber only now remembering that various characters should have been around the whole time, and still forgetting most of the others.
The treatment of Jazz this entire series has been ridiculous. The whole time all this is going on you wonder where such a prominent figure is and it turns out he's just shooting the breeze with Skybyte the whole time. Barber seems to remember this glaring omission in the end and inserts him in the fight with a ridiculous 'Im a stone-cold killer!', which I took as basically saying 'I wasn't in this series but just to let all you readers know how badass I am and to make up for my absence, I'm gonna shout 'I'm a stone-cold killer', so don't you forget it!"

I think in the end I prefer AHM to this, really. It only strung us along for 12 issues where this one has for 16. AHM wasn't so chaotically organized as a story, only decompressed. And it's gestalt battle at the end was far better rendered. The characters weren't half as annoying and at least the story made sense, despite it overall being a bore. Plus, it didn't benefit from having a kickass sister series tied into it. The art was better too.

This is still better than Costa though.
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Post by Hound » Fri Mar 29, 2013 5:42 pm

There was an opportunity to do something really different with this series but it lost its way fast.

Imagine if whilst in disarray, a third party (like the Quints) launched a surprise attack and enslaved all of Cybertron, bar a small resistance group made up of bots, cons and nails.

I dunno. My ideas are generally ****. But surely we can do more than Devastator. Again.
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Post by Yaya » Fri Mar 29, 2013 6:06 pm

Hound wrote:There was an opportunity to do something really different with this series but it lost its way fast.

Imagine if whilst in disarray, a third party (like the Quints) launched a surprise attack and enslaved all of Cybertron, bar a small resistance group made up of bots, cons and nails.
That would have been far superior to what we've been given. Loads of potential in that story.
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Post by Jack Cade » Fri Mar 29, 2013 6:08 pm

There was an opportunity to do something really different with this series but it lost its way fast.
That's what I find most galling. If you gave me Barber's outline in pitch form I would think it brilliant. World-building, secret conspiracies, ructions in the corridors of power, Decepticons searching for validity in this brave new world, exploring a decimated landscape!

How the hell did he mess it up so badly?
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Post by Kaylee » Fri Mar 29, 2013 8:00 pm

Jack Cade wrote:
I'm inserting something from nearly 30 years of TF lore ...
Because Devastator's component parts not getting along came across so strongly in the Sunbow cartoon? :eyebrow:

I wasn't even aware of this trait - is it anything more than a single line in his original techspecs? It might have been in the Marvel comics, but I don't remember. I recall *Bruticus* having this flaw because the Combaticons all hate Onslaught, but I'd never picked it up with regard to Devastator.

More importantly, if what you're saying is that IDW have to make it amply clear wherever their story deviates from previous portrayals of the characters in other continuities in order to stop you and others assuming it's all the same, that puts a heavy burden on the writers in terms of exposition. Every time a new character is introduced, they'd have to put in a text box explaining what aspects can be carried over and which should be ignored, or else we'd be asking: why doesn't Soundwave just read everyone's minds? Why doesn't Springer spring? Where's Cliffjumper's glass gun?

I apologise if some of my phrasing is quite strong - the internet doesn't carry tone well. You should assume that I'm generally conversing in the spirit of a hearty debate unless I start using phrases like 'completely inappropriate'.
Fair dues. Tone is not something the web translates well, and even then the reader is imperfect (eg me). :)

Devestator in the Marvel run had this element mentioned quite a lot. You're absolutely correct that others had it focused too: Menasor, Superion etc. I think one of few successful combiners was Predaking.

That element of combiners always made a lot of sense to me. Five/six separate, discrete personalities acting like one person I felt would yield psychological problems. It's also a convenient way to explain why each side only had a handful of combiners, rather than armies of them. Also how the combiners hadn't just killed everyone!

The Constructicons as a case study: they're all different personalities, so meshing together would produce a fractured, scrambled mind. I say that: RiD is all I know of IDW's Constructicons, perhaps they're all clones of one personality?

An essay isn't necessary to explain a difference from a previous view of the character, but something a little earlier in the series to hint it would have been great. It can be done subtly. Again, Arcee/Galvatron/Cyclonus and all the other new-take characters didn't just (from the POV of RiD) appear one page before they turned into huge plot devices.

Issue 1 could have made reference to the threat the Decepticons represented, eg "Imagine if they got Devestator restored? They perfected the combination once, what if they did it again? We barely stopped them!"

Along comes I, and suddenly issue 15 makes (slightly) more sense because the concept has been hinted to me. Everything I knew about combiners was not transferable.

There is, to a simple **** like me, a happy medium between saying nothing about a concept that previously was different and serving up a catalogued appendix of all differences, sorted by date, case-insensitive title sorting and an optional SOAP web service API.

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Post by Computron » Fri Mar 29, 2013 9:24 pm

Yea, in summary, RID seems like a great idea. It should be kinda of like New Caprica meets transformers meets Rome. Instead its a slow plotline sprinkled with fanwank. Oooh assassin Arcee! Gestalts...again! Dinobots! Look at the shiny! Surprise Megatron is back!

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Post by Sunyavadin » Sat Mar 30, 2013 12:05 am

Issue 14, Megs went to great length to explain this flaw with gestalts, and how it was basically the achilles' heel of every one from Monstructor, to Devastator, to Menasor... And how he planned to overcome this flaw by eliminating the components' individualities. Of course the standard Megatron hubris kicks in (his own achilles' heel it always seems to be), and Devastator goes completely out of control anyway, BECAUSE all his components find something to unite their divided consciousnesses.
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Post by Sunyavadin » Sat Mar 30, 2013 12:34 am

Hound wrote: Imagine if whilst in disarray, a third party (like the Quints) launched a surprise attack and enslaved all of Cybertron, bar a small resistance group made up of bots, cons and nails.
Yeah. We've had more teasing of Quints in Syndromica, so I would really hope that we might see something of them in Shockpoint, but I dunno...
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When I picture Simon Furman's direct ancestor, squatting in dingy furs, singing songs about the glory of the Saxon tribe, I imagine him as the very first to gather his buddies around the campfire and say "There was this dude named Beowulf..."

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Post by Kaylee » Sat Mar 30, 2013 9:46 am

Sunyavadin wrote:Issue 14, Megs went to great length to explain this flaw with gestalts, and how it was basically the achilles' heel of every one from Monstructor, to Devastator, to Menasor... And how he planned to overcome this flaw by eliminating the components' individualities. Of course the standard Megatron hubris kicks in (his own achilles' heel it always seems to be), and Devastator goes completely out of control anyway, BECAUSE all his components find something to unite their divided consciousnesses.
Okay... So it's a flaw with IDW gestalts too...

I think I feel a headache coming on...

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Post by Mr_Tigg » Sat Mar 30, 2013 12:57 pm

Crikey! You turn your back for a day or so and all hell breaks loose!

Karl, I wasn't offended by your post, merely debating the finer points of the argument so no hard feelings there dude. Likewise I didn't mean to upset you, so if I pick apart your post in future it's all in the spirit of debate, y'kno?

Building off what's already been said - IDW Devvy has never been established as having conflicting parts, but likewise it's never been explained how the 'cons perfected the Gestault process. So with that in mind I can understand Karl's confusion, but that's technically McCarthy's fault for opting to introduce Devastator without referencing the Monstructor storyline by Furman.

In fact theoretically we should be praising Barber for actually fixing that continuity bug and attempted to explain why Devvy is so flawless - it's no different to Roberts using MTMTE to explain why phase sixers are hard as nails.

The problems arise in the execution - Barber's bodged it up royally. If you scrape away the poor dialogue and lame plotting, there's a nucleus of a great idea at the core of RID. On paper the concept of an autobot being forced to become part of a Decepticon combiner is both unique and exciting - it's just a massive shame that Barber's limitations have really hammed up something that could've been magnificent.

Jack - you're actually thinking of Menasor with Motormaster being loathed by the other 4 stunticons. Bruticus was in fact supposedly the perfect soldier and one of the more successful combiners. I'm not sure what that makes Predaking though - as he was suppose to be the perfect war machine too!

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Post by Kaylee » Sat Mar 30, 2013 2:16 pm

I'm a mercurial SOB so no hard feelings to you, either :)

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Post by Best First » Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:30 am

I have always thought of you as a Proud Wolf Karl...

What a nostalgic bout of arguing. ha.
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Post by Kaylee » Tue Apr 02, 2013 6:03 pm

Best First wrote:I have always thought of you as a Proud Wolf Karl...

What a nostalgic bout of arguing. ha.
Ah the good old days :(

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Post by Impactor returns 2.0 » Tue Apr 02, 2013 6:44 pm

I never understood why gestalts :

A. Seem larger than thier component parts?
And
B. Would be any stronger than thier component parts.?
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Post by Kaylee » Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:18 pm

Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:I never understood why gestalts :

A. Seem larger than thier component parts?
And
B. Would be any stronger than thier component parts.?
Both fine questions. Given Superion's components, even by TF standards, he's badly out of scale. His body is Concorde with fighter jets for limbs! He should be about 4x bigger than Devestator!

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Post by Computron » Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:12 pm

Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:I never understood why gestalts :

A. Seem larger than thier component parts?
And
B. Would be any stronger than thier component parts.?
I think the answer to "A" stems from either artistic license or just giving in to the coolness factor of having really big robots fighting. In short, I don't think there is an actual "in-universe" answer to that question unless you think TF's can grow in mass at will.

As for B, that kinda makes sense to me to be honest. If Silverbolt punches Starscream with his fist, he is devoting his energy to make his fist, which weighs however much it weighs, hit Starscream in the mouth.

On the other hand, a bot like Superion can punch Starscream with a fist the size of an airplane, and with the energy of 5 combined bots.

Not sure if that applies to damage absorption to be honest. If I was a TF I'd just aim for the connecting bits between the various combiners...

In short I have less problem with the usefulness of a combiner (increased raw battlefield utility) than I do with the fact that as a giant massive target, they really oughta be gunned down twice as quickly. Presumably it's a lot easier to hit Devastator than it is to be shot by him.

Never understood why when fighting gestalts they all feel the need to be all honorable and engage in short range melee, when, they could easily shoot it from the air, or from, I dunno, 30 miles away with a railgun and be done with it. (I did not intend to bring Revenge of the Fallen into this, so I apologize, but that is one scene in that movie that kinda makes sense. Why not shoot at it with giant artillery?)

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Post by Jack Cade » Wed Apr 03, 2013 12:08 am

I think the answer to "A" stems from either artistic license or just giving in to the coolness factor of having really big robots fighting. In short, I don't think there is an actual "in-universe" answer to that question unless you think TF's can grow in mass at will
In the Furman days, the concept of 'mass displacement' was introduced - supposedly very costly in terms of energy, but it allowed Megs and Soundwave to shrink for their alt modes. The mass displacement was portrayed as being characterised by crackling energy when the transformation took place.

In AHM, Josh Burcham (the colourist) argued for this crackling energy to be inserted into the panels where Devastator forms, to show that he was being mass-displaced upwards.

Similarly, in RiD, Prowl's inner monologue makes a reference to mass displacement as an explanation for Devastator's size.

What no one seems to have tackled is why the term 'mass displacement' now involves adding mass, rather than taking it away. Where does the extra mass come from?
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Post by Kaylee » Wed Apr 03, 2013 12:10 am

Every time a geek masturbates, Devestator gets a foot taller.

...what?

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Post by Computron » Wed Apr 03, 2013 3:11 am

Karl wrote:Every time a geek masturbates, Devestator gets a foot taller.

...what?
I think Devastator is too short by several light-years then...

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Post by snarl » Wed Apr 03, 2013 9:07 am

When I see a woman with a pretty face, a nice arse and / or tits, I get mass displacement involving adding mass in my trousers.

Maybe that's what happens with the Devster?
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