Bumblemus watches Doctor Who now. Doctor Who is cool.

Brendocon · Post by **Brendocon** » Tue Feb 14, 2012 9:55 pm

Yes.

Except it's "EDGY" and "EXCITING" because it has "SWEARING" and "SEX".

All this combines to make it more "ADULT"

And also means that, when it's ****, oh my gods it's ****. But Children of Earth is superb, so it's swings and roundabouts.

And there's a bit of time travel in it. Just a bit though.

Shanti418 · Post by **Shanti418** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:56 pm

Just finished Love and Monsters, everything going good so far.

Girl in the Fireplace was pretty sweet, those "person-out-of-time" sci-fi eps (Like DS9's the Visitor) always get me.

Aside from the reintroduction of the Cybermen, I thought that arc was average. So what were the Cybermen previously? Certainly not just a corporate product strategy, no? I bet Ron Moore pored over this before he did "Caprica," as the beat is similar. Also, Rose apparently doesn't learn from her mistakes: stop going and f***ing with alternate versions of your father.

Idiot's Lantern was probably the weakest of the season thus far, and the Satanic arc was also cool, although I could see the deux ex machina of the TARDIS happening to be right by where the Doctor landed coming for miles away. Also, it was funny when Satan was like, "You, you're scared, you, you're lost, you, you're a.....virgin!"

Loved the perspective of Love and Monsters, seems like most modern sci-fi shows do one of these at some point in their airing. I couldn't get it out of my head that I found it strange the lead guy was in love with the ghost from Hogwarts. I would have been like, "Oh, she's just a face in a tile, eh? Well Doc, it'd be better if I just let her go, innit?" Combined with Satan's prophecy however, this mainly seemed to serve as another big flashing sign that says "Rose is not long for this earth. You have been warned." Which I DO know is coming soon.

Post by **spiderfrommars** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:12 pm

The Girl in the Fireplace is my favourite Tennant episode.

The Satan episodes were good fun too, proving the show could do outer space episodes well. (Don't forget, DW has a fraction of the budget of US shows like BSG or even Stargate). And the Ood were awesome.

Post by **Best First** » Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:29 am

Plus Doctor Who only takes two episodes to beat the First Evil.

Stop slacking Summers.

Brendocon · Post by **Brendocon** » Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:08 am

"Willow! Stop angsting over your new girlfriend and get with the majiking me a black hole!"

"Working on a different hole right now, Buff."

Post by **Best First** » Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:42 pm

Shanti418 · Post by **Shanti418** » Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:41 pm

"Hurry, we need to throw this tiny spore spaceship into the Olympic flame because it runs on love and good vibrations!". *grin* Fantastic!

Also watched the finale. Good times. But how did they get all those cybermen? Thought they all died. And Rose, you got back your dad, your boyfriend, and you're rich. It's like when Marty McFly goes back to the present and he's got a sweet truck and a successful father. Stop your crying. Look at Sarah Jane: all she got was a robot dog and a loveless life.

Legion · Post by **Legion** » Wed Feb 22, 2012 1:02 pm

What you have to remember is, Rose is a bitch.

Shanti418 · Post by **Shanti418** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 6:37 pm

Still chugging along. Boy, Martha Jones is INFINITELY more handy than Rose. Just about to get to the ending three parter with Mr. Saxon

Also seems as though the production values are getting better, Lazarus-Scorpion excluded.

It's also been interesting to see race dealt with, esp. in Shakespeare Code and Human Nature/Family of Blood (the two stories where they go back in time). Allowed me justification to spout off to my wife about the different racial formations in the US and UK due to the differing legacies of slavery and colonialism, respectively.

This season also seems to have lots of change of direction plot twists. Those alien Rhinos? You thought they were mean, but they're just following the law! Gridlock? You thought that everyone was trapped by the highway, but they were actually saved by the highway. You thought that Human Dalek was going to be a dick, but he was ace!

Overall, good times! The Daleks in Manhatten was sweet, but it was the only Dr. Who that I remember watching previously so it didn't pop me out of my seat. Dr Who as human was also pretty cool: interesting to see him protest sooo much about losing his humanity, but it does make sense. Was this episode controversial and/or popular?

Post by **spiderfrommars** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 11:57 pm

Series 3 was pretty decent. Some classic episodes like Gridlock, Blink, Human Nature (and as you're about to see) Utopia. It just starts looking a lot nicer and more... convincing. The ideas get bigger too... Elizabethan London! A hospital on the moon! Daleks... in Manhattan!

Shanti418 wrote: Dr Who as human was also pretty cool: interesting to see him protest sooo much about losing his humanity, but it does make sense. Was this episode controversial and/or popular?

It was based on a really popular novel which the writer himself adapted. It went down pretty well, yes. Not controversial really, viewers had got used to the Doctor snogging anything in a skirt by this time.

And those scarecrows.... *shudder*

But what did you make of 'The One With Carey Mulligan and The Statues'?

Brendocon · Post by **Brendocon** » Sat Mar 03, 2012 12:08 pm

... I...

Ok, despite having teh epic crush on Sally Sparrow, it hadn't actually connected that she was Carey Mulligan off of Never Let Me Go, Drive and Shame. Mental what a haircut'll do.

Admittedly it's a while since I've seen Blink. But still. Complete brainfade.

Shanti418 wrote:Still chugging along. Boy, Martha Jones is INFINITELY more handy than Rose.

I'm sorry, but I find that hilarious. Marfa's pretty much useless. If the plot requires somebody to do something incredibly stupid or behave in a way to draw undue attention to you when you're hiding, it's Martha who'll do it.

"Oh, it's so different here. Don't tell anybody, but I'm from the future and we're here hiding away. God, the past is so quaint."

And that's before Utopia.

Gridlock? You thought that everyone was trapped by the highway, but they were actually saved by the highway.

I loved Gridlock. You think it's going to descend into a cringey morality lecture about the evils of the class divide, then er... no. Actually. Plus macra.

What did you make of the horrendous American accents in Daleks in Manhattan?

Post by **spiderfrommars** » Sat Mar 03, 2012 2:23 pm

Brendocon wrote: ... I...

Ok, despite having teh epic crush on Sally Sparrow, it hadn't actually connected that she was Carey Mulligan off of Never Let Me Go, Drive and Shame. Mental what a haircut'll do.

Admittedly it's a while since I've seen Blink. But still. Complete brainfade.

I assume you noticed Spider-man was in Daleks in Manhattan tho?

Brendocon wrote:What did you make of the horrendous American accents in Daleks in Manhattan?

Were they that horrendous?

Let's face it, English accents in American shows are where real horrors lie.

Brendocon · Post by **Brendocon** » Sat Mar 03, 2012 3:19 pm

spiderfrommars wrote:I assume you noticed Spider-man was in Daleks in Manhattan tho?

Not really! I've repressed most of that two-parter, tbh.

I'm sure New Who is absolutely littered with Brit stars who were about to be huge, who I didn't notice because I just haven't rewatched it since.

A massive part of the fun of watching the old series is going "oh, it's him! and her!" etc.

I did spot Peter Capaldi in Pompeii though.

Shanti418 · Post by **Shanti418** » Sat Mar 03, 2012 4:43 pm

It was based on a really popular novel which the writer himself adapted. It went down pretty well, yes. Not controversial really, viewers had got used to the Doctor snogging anything in a skirt by this time. Wink

I wasn't thinking controversial towards the snogging, I was thinking more controversial towards the Doctor being a human and wanting to stay that way. But if it was already a well received novel.... And plus in retrospect you really need that ep to not have the events and concepts in Utopia come out of the blue.

But what did you make of 'The One With Carey Mulligan and The Statues'?

I thought Carey Mulligan was annoying in a Rose kind of way, although she certainly was hot! That was one of those episodes, I think like the TV one and others, where it hinges upon a bunch of people being stupid. "What are these statues doing here? Let me wander amongst them by myself." And Sparrow, with the "Messages on a DVD talking about time travel after getting a letter from my friend who was just transported to the past? Can't be bothered!" But being there for that black guy who hit on her as he died, ending up having a store named Sparrow & Nightingale, and that last scene with the Doctor where she gives him the statue info really gave the whole show an emotional center that left you saying "Ah, that was a good one!"

Marfa's pretty much useless. If the plot requires somebody to do something incredibly stupid or behave in a way to draw undue attention to you when you're hiding, it's Martha who'll do it.

"Oh, it's so different here. Don't tell anybody, but I'm from the future and we're here hiding away. God, the past is so quaint."

Martha certainly does not give a crap about keeping cover in history, to be sure Brend. I thought she had just inherited the Doctor's cavalier attitude towards that kind of stuff. But yeah, comparing that to when Rose was a cafeteria lady, she didn't give a toss. Still, it seems like there were a lot more times where trouble originated from Rose, and a lot more times where Martha was basically left to do some seriously heavy lifting while the Doc was out of the picture. Whereas Rose relied on her pluckiness and optimism, Martha's got a head on her shoulder and has resolve (esp in the whole Master thing).

What did you make of the horrendous American accents in Daleks in Manhattan?

I didn't think that the accents were that horrendous. By that I mean to say that they were stereotypical "1920s America" accents. Although yes spiderfrommars, I DID notice Andrew Garfield, and his over the top Tennessee drawl WAS quite horrendous. But as far as everyone else, I saw them as period accents, which are already usually dramatized. Plus, after Apollo, Rick Grimes, and Christian Bale, I just assume that all English can do great American accents. lol

In terms of other actors, the only other one that I recognized was Simon Pegg way back in Season 1. But I obviously have less of an eye.

But yeah, that last three parter was really sweet. The actor who played the Master did a masterful job, no pun intended. Things were certainly dire indeed. I was proud to see humans there at the end of it all, as the cockroaches of the universe, although boo on them for turning into spheres of blades and lasers and trying to commit genocide on their ancestors. It's a shame the Master couldn't stay around more, although with his attitude, it seems as though he can't really just co-exist with the Doctor. The Master's wife went from sending reporters to a bloody death to shooting her husband without a LICK of dialogue, I was like, "Eh, whatever." Does he not show up again until the recently announced 50th anniversary stuff? Jack as Face of Boe? Awesome!

I had a time question regarding Blink. Which of these three opinions is the most correct?
A. The Doctor could have gone back in time and got everyone who was misplaced by the statues and taken them back to their correct time.
B. No he couldn't have, because you need their actions during their lives vis a vis Sally Sparrow to free the Doctor. If they don't live out their time displaced lives, then the Doctor wouldn't have been freed and you'd have a paradox.
A1. No, there simply would be a multiplicity of realities, because as the Doctor said in the episode, time is not only non-linear, it's also weebly-woobly.
C. I think it's best to just think about all of these sorts of questions less. It's Dr. Who, time physics are what they need to be for any particular episode.

Post by **spiderfrommars** » Sat Mar 03, 2012 6:17 pm

Shanti418 wrote:
I wasn't thinking controversial towards the snogging, I was thinking more controversial towards the Doctor being a human and wanting to stay that way.

When you remember that it was John Smith, not the Doctor, who wanted to remain human, that works. We humans are inherently selfish, cowardly creatures are we not? Seeing the Doctor in floods of tears was different though.

Though Joan (Jessica Stevenson! From Spaced!) did say he was braver than the Doctor in the end.

Shanti418 wrote:Still, it seems like there were a lot more times where trouble originated from Rose, and a lot more times where Martha was basically left to do some seriously heavy lifting while the Doc was out of the picture.

Yeah, Martha in Human Nature had to deal with more than the average companion ever had to. Not really until Amy Pond is a companion dealt such a ****** hand by the Doctor.

At the time I thought Martha was a fine replacement for Rose, but in hindsight, Billie Piper was a much more engaging actress.

Shanti418 wrote: I was proud to see humans there at the end of it all, as the cockroaches of the universe, although boo on them for turning into spheres of blades and lasers and trying to commit genocide on their ancestors.

An unusually pessimistic outlook for modern Who, and all the creepier for it.

What did you make of the stereotypical American president and frat boys in Sound of Drums? I think they just got away with it!

Shanti418 wrote:
I had a time question regarding Blink. Which of these three opinions is the most correct?
A. The Doctor could have gone back in time and got everyone who was misplaced by the statues and taken them back to their correct time.
B. No he couldn't have, because you need their actions during their lives vis a vis Sally Sparrow to free the Doctor. If they don't live out their time displaced lives, then the Doctor wouldn't have been freed and you'd have a paradox.
A1. No, there simply would be a multiplicity of realities, because as the Doctor said in the episode, time is not only non-linear, it's also weebly-woobly.
C. I think it's best to just think about all of these sorts of questions less. It's Dr. Who, time physics are what they need to be for any particular episode.

A combination of B and C I think. The oft-repeated 'rule' is that the Doctor cannot cross his own timeline (otherwise he'd solve every episode with time travel), but they've been playing fast and loose with that one of late. Perhaps he could do A with a paradox machine as seen in Last of the Time Lords?

inflatable dalek · Post by **inflatable dalek** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 9:10 pm

Brendocon wrote: I think Sladen was possibly the longest-running companion - might be wrong, but that's off the top of my head*. Which is probably something to do with it. She came in for Pertwee's last season and completely reinvigorated the dynamic (and him), then stuck around for another 2+ years with Tom.

In terms of time on the show as a regular I think Amy will outstrip her (way hay), depending on when she leaves in the next run (interestingly, or not, both had their time on the show artificially extended by the Beeb moving the show to the Autumn). in terms of episodes I think Jamie definitely has the most, and a few of the 60's ones must have more than Sarah due to them pretty much doing the show all year back then.

A large part of the reason why the Slitheen story is so bad is it contains the earliest filmed material for the show (it was done in a block with Rose, IIRC the first filmed stuff for the new series was the Space Pig) and to say it took a while for them to get the hang of it would be an understatement. It seems to have been a very troubled production with the never used again director having taken the flak for most of it (with stories that on set arguments with Ecclestone- who lest we forget thought he was signing up for a serious drama for kids rather than farting aliens and burping bins- playing a large part in the actors decision to go. A much quoted bit of on set shouting from the lead at the time was "You don't have to say this ****").

Hand of Fear for a good sampling if you're that way inclined.

Well, the last two minutes of The Hand of Fear is very good. Th e rest only really stands out for it's advice that the best way to avoid harm from a nuclear power plant blowing up in your face is to hide behind the nearest Jeep.

I'd like to think we'd get a similar reaction from the Doctor if he randomly bumped into Ace or Tegan. But they were in it in the 80s so were obviously rubbish.

Apparently they were thinking of doing Ace in a SJA episode, I'm not sure how far along those plans got before real world events ended the show. I do like how the throwaway mention of her in Death of the Doctor gave her a third contradictory exit from the show (she became Space Bitch Ace in the books and died in the comics. Such a shame Big Finish chickened out of doing their own take on her departure in "Season 28", especially as having her hang round with Raine wound up being a bit pointless, there never seemed to be enough for both of them to do).

As to why they gave her her own show? Pass. Positive reaction to School Reunion, probably. "Ooh, there's cash to be milked here, fellas."

CBBC wanted a spin off and were all geared up to do Young Doctor Who, I think Sarah-Jane was suggested by RTD just as a means of getting them away from that idea. Which is a shame as what kids TV needs is more Hartnell style action.

Metal Vendetta · Post by **Metal Vendetta** » Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:20 am

Shanti418 wrote:Why did we start watching it? I'm glad you asked. Basically, we'd run out of sci-fi shows to watch together. We've rewatched TOS, TNG, DS9, BSG, and B5. I've already established that Voyager and Enterprise are 90% crap, so she doesn't want to watch those (although I'd be willing to consult the wikis to pull out the okay bits).

Pretty much the situation with me and the missus at the moment.

Anyways, if anyone knows of any good sci-fi shows, preferably not episodic and with a conclusion, ie not cancelled before they were done, please do let me know.

Well we've been dipping in and out of Voyager, watching Red Dwarf as a stop gap. If you've watched TNG, Dwarf definitely works as comedy. Other series we've seen recently - I'd heartily recommend Farscape, Twin Peaks and The Prisoner.

Shanti418 · Post by **Shanti418** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 5:47 pm

What did you make of the stereotypical American president and frat boys in Sound of Drums? I think they just got away with it!

Yeah, you know, you just kind of have to roll with it. And we ARE kind of dicks, anyway. "Protocol says WE get to talk to the aliens." TOTALLY something we'd actually say. So it's not like I can really take offense of the guns first, civility later stereotype.

Red Dwarf, gotcha. Another vote for Farscape. Twin Peaks, mmm I dunno. How David Lynchy IS it? I mean, I like Mullholland Drive and Eraserhead and everything, but I don't know if I want to watch 13+ hours of it.

Still chugging along on the Who. Middle of Series 4, just after Doctor's Daughter (which apparently is Tenannt's new wife? Nice catch, you dirty old man!). Why didn't she get her own series? Sure seemed like that's what they were setting up.

Pompeii - Really, no need to save that single family. Oh look, I'm Donna, I'm all moralistic.

Planet of the Ood was pretty cool, and the Sontaran two parter was ace, mainly because of the Sontarans and the reveal of what it was they were doing with the exhaust. The Mark Zuckerberg/Columbine Killer actor who looked like Chris Kattan was horrendous, though.

Cool how they're seeding Rose in to some of these episodes. Martha is apparently FAR less helpful when she's engaged. And I still don't know how I feel about Donna. On the one hand, I like that she's not all starry eyed towards the Doctor and I like her Granddad, but on the other, it seems like she just sort of jumped in and started throwing her weight around. Her super-secretary powers have failed to impress me. She comes off as a placeholder to me. And apparently Catherine Tate had her own sketch comedy show? What was that about?

Couple of random Who related questions:
1. Can anyone suggest a good podcast? I've seen the popular ones, but they're either looking at 50 years and talking about random things, or only began to focus on episode by episode podcasts when the 11th doctor showed up. I'm looking for a podcast that has ep by eps for where I'm at through the 11th.
2. What's up with the audio stories? Are they simply a popular form in a different media? Created in the wake of Who going off the air in the late 80s? Or are they a way to hear more stories involving past Doctors, even if they're all old and wrinkly in real life?
3. Why does the show change formats into movie type things after this season and then change back with the 11th?

Brendocon · Post by **Brendocon** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:05 pm

Shanti418 wrote:Still chugging along on the Who. Middle of Series 4, just after Doctor's Daughter (which apparently is Tenannt's new wife? Nice catch, you dirty old man!). Why didn't she get her own series? Sure seemed like that's what they were setting up.

Because she's ****? That whole episode makes absolutely no sense at all when you step back and look at it.

Martha is apparently FAR less helpful when she's engaged. And I still don't know how I feel about Donna. On the one hand, I like that she's not all starry eyed towards the Doctor and I like her Granddad, but on the other, it seems like she just sort of jumped in and started throwing her weight around. Her super-secretary powers have failed to impress me. She comes off as a placeholder to me. And apparently Catherine Tate had her own sketch comedy show? What was that about?

Though the Doctor's Daughter does contain my favourite ever Marfa moment, where she manages to kill off an alien who breathes liquid through a tube... by drowning. Well played, girl.

Donna's awful. What was her sketch show? Her standing about shouting. Though without David Tennant insisting regularly about how great she is.

Her Grandad's awesome though, which is what happens when you give a proper actor a job on the program, rather than parachuting the Celeb du Jour for a Christmas ep and then deciding to just give her a regular slot.

3. Why does the show change formats into movie type things after this season and then change back with the 11th?

Tennant got a stage gig that conflicted with the production schedule, iirc. So rather than give up the role, they shuffled around him to do a year of specials rather than a full season. There was probably another reason as well, but I think that was the primary excuse the BBC trotted out.

Fortunately Who's format has always been flexible enough that they can do that sort of thing without it being too bizarre. The number of episodes / length of episodes / number of stories / placing of season within the calendar has varied several times in the past.

inflatable dalek · Post by **inflatable dalek** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 9:38 pm

Shanti418 wrote: Yeah, you know, you just kind of have to roll with it. And we ARE kind of dicks, anyway. "Protocol says WE get to talk to the aliens." TOTALLY something we'd actually say. So it's not like I can really take offense of the guns first, civility later stereotype.

Considering the British are just as culpable for all the crap and pointless Middle Eastern wars of the last decade as America I always found that bit painful, after all, who is more pathetic? The country who invades another country on a false pretext for oil, or the country that invades another country on a false pretext because the first country told them too and that they'd be their bestest friend forever if they did?

Mind, having the "You mean like the Dev-ON-shire?" bloke from Tomorrow Never Dies as the US President was cool.

Still chugging along on the Who. Middle of Series 4, just after Doctor's Daughter (which apparently is Tenannt's new wife? Nice catch, you dirty old man!). Why didn't she get her own series? Sure seemed like that's what they were setting up.

Originally she was supposed to die properly, but was kept alive after Stephen Moffat (who was beginning to set in motion his take over of the show during the filming of this season) asked she be spared for future use. Thankfully he seems to have forgotten this.

Planet of the Ood was pretty cool, and the Sontaran two parter was ace, mainly because of the Sontarans and the reveal of what it was they were doing with the exhaust. The Mark Zuckerberg/Columbine Killer actor who looked like Chris Kattan was horrendous, though.

The Sontaran story is a strange one for me, the first episode I find terrible, but I love the second as big cheesy fun with UNIT turning out to be SPECTRUM. And aftter the Doctor's very annoying anti army crap in the first episode (where he spends all his time telling them what they can't do rather than offering them alternatives and then gets annoyed when they find his advice unhelpful) seeing the spiritual successors to Benton kicking arse properly is great. Though if Ross had bothered to mention to anyone beforehand that the Sontarans can make their guns not work he wouldn't have died, making that scene an elaborately stupid suicide rather than a tragic message on the stupidity of war as it seems to be intended.

2. What's up with the audio stories? Are they simply a popular form in a different media? Created in the wake of Who going off the air in the late 80s? Or are they a way to hear more stories involving past Doctors, even if they're all old and wrinkly in real life?

The late 90's man! I was there when the audios stated, I'm not that old!

Like much of Who, the audios are often brilliant, often terrible and every so often forgettable. The fact they're unashamedly aimed at fans does mean they're consistently grown up in tone without having to keep the kids happy like the TV show has to.

For a couple to start with I'd reccomed the ones turned into TV episodes, Jubilee (which became Dalek in the first new season, though the plot outside the captured Dalek being tortured is much more bonkers, with the Evil English Empire of an alternate timeline and singing Daleks. Worth listening because how Colin plays his scenes with the Dalek is how the writer imagined Eccleston would do them in the TV episode, except as he no preconceptions about how the Doctor acts due to unfamiliarity with the show Eccles went in a very different full of rage and spit shouty take on it).

Also, the secret origin of the Cybermen, Spare Parts. Which is both brilliant, and so unlike what Age of Steel/Rise of the Cybermen wound up like it'll make you cry for the wasted opportunity and wonder why they even bothered with the "Based on" credit.

Though the Doctor's Daughter does contain my favourite ever Marfa moment, where she manages to kill off an alien who breathes liquid through a tube... by drowning. Well played, girl.

I just like how it's the conclusion of a little trilogy where the writers forget Martha is a Doctor and have her stand around doing nothing whilst people die. The Master, her own clone, and Jenny don't even get their pulse checked by her. Now, there are good reasons why norm,al human medical knowledge wouldn't work on all three of them, but she doesn't even try, just looking a bit sad and sheepish as they end their lives.

TDD is easily my least favourite new series episode, stupid and pointless on every level.

Donna's awful. What was her sketch show? Her standing about shouting. Though without David Tennant insisting regularly about how great she is.

Her Grandad's awesome though, which is what happens when you give a proper actor a job on the program, rather than parachuting the Celeb du Jour for a Christmas ep and then deciding to just give her a regular slot.

I'd actually be more forgiving of Donna if Tate was just a comedian out of her depth, but she's got proper acting chops and even before the skit shows was getting good reviews for her theatre work. She's more talented than Donna shows, and there's no excuse for some of her odder choices. Though I do think she's more likeable in her first few regular episodes before the wheels really come off.

Tennant got a stage gig that conflicted with the production schedule, iirc. So rather than give up the role, they shuffled around him to do a year of specials rather than a full season. There was probably another reason as well, but I think that was the primary excuse the BBC trotted out.

It was actually more the other way round, once Tennant knew there was going to be less episodes that year he went out and got a theatre gig. The "Specials" year seems to have been entirely down to allowing a easy transition between production teams. It seems to have been planned far enough in advance that Moffat began writing his first scripts as show runner before filming on season 4 even finished, when he visited the set during the filming of the library two parter he got Tennant to decide if he was going to stay on or not as he was about to start on the first script the next day and needed to know if it was introducing a new Doctor or not.

Post by **spiderfrommars** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:35 pm

I grew to like Donna. It helped that she went up quite a few IQ points between The Runaway Bride and Series 4.

I listened to the Spare Parts audio which was good, but unfortunately I just don't have time to get into all the audios.

Call me a dick but I think Doctor Who is the show for the child in all of us. Sad to see how cynical some of these posts are! As far as I can make out, Brend, ID, you think the new series is mostly ****?

inflatable dalek · Post by **inflatable dalek** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:12 pm

I think since it came back we've had some of the best Doctor Who ever made. And some of the worst. Them's the breaks with production line TV.

Though I am fine with the fact most peoples in the UK expectations of Doctor Who is fun camp nonsense, in much the same way they find the Bay TF films to be exactly the sort of big fun action filled dumb nonsense anything made to sell toys should be.

Brendocon · Post by **Brendocon** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:36 pm

spiderfrommars wrote:As far as I can make out, Brend, ID, you think the new series is mostly ****?

I like it. On the whole I genuinely like it... it's just that when it's bad, it's awful.

I don't like it when it's smug, trying to be grandiose, or when it's doing lazy attention-whore publicity grabs in lieu of actual plots. I hated John Simm's performance as the Master, thought Martha was useless and despised Donna.

Series 4 in general I thought was shocking, aside from the Library two-parter (if you ignore the fact Moff's just rehashing the same tricks he uses every story) and Midnight (which is excellent and a complete departure from the lazy sledgehammer **** that RTD tended to churn out on scriptduties... mad).

Other than that, the series in general gets the thumbs up from me. It just doesn't seem to do "average" very often/well.

Post by **spiderfrommars** » Sat Mar 10, 2012 12:12 am

No worries, I just think it's a shame that in a thread where Spence and Shanti are discovering Who for the first time, you guys are - for the most part - ripping it to shreds.

What a pair of grouches! This show is awesome.

inflatable dalek · Post by **inflatable dalek** » Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:49 am

It's worth remembering Doctor Who is a very broad church, even more so than Transformers and we know how disparate that fandom can be. It's run for so long, made by so many people in so many different styles no one is going to like all of it. You'd have to have a mind more open than a field.

For me, the worst run in the shows history is the three middle Jon Pertwee years, with a few exceptions horrible, dull preachy TV that has the worst two leads in the programs entire run, with only the Brig, the Master (it's a sign of how good Delgardo is a motiveless generic evil character is so much fun) and Benton are pretty much the only worthwhile things in it.

Despite that I still have respect for those who do enjoy it, they've just been brought into Who looking for something else. There are even people out there who don't like Sylvester McCoy. The crazy mother [composite word including 'f*ck'].

Brendocon · Post by **Brendocon** » Sat Mar 10, 2012 12:59 pm

spiderfrommars wrote:No worries, I just think it's a shame that in a thread where Spence and Shanti are discovering Who for the first time, you guys are - for the most part - ripping it to shreds.

I'm trying to be good! Trying not to prejudice opinions before they've actually seen the episodes in question, and stuff. Waiting for them to bring something up before venturing a contrary opinion.

Sorry if I'm ruining anything for you boyz.

I'm not going to gush fanatically and say "by gosh, you're right, it's all absolutely fantastic" because it would be condescending and dishonest. If they can enjoy it, more power to 'em. I just felt an opposing viewpoint on certain things would help create discussion etc.

And it helps that Shanti is zeroing in on my pet peeves as the things he's singled out for praise.

[Murray Gold's music is awful too

]

Post by **spiderfrommars** » Sat Mar 10, 2012 1:13 pm

inflatable dalek wrote:
For me, the worst run in the shows history is the three middle Jon Pertwee years

There, I probably agree with you. Pertwee is probably my least favourite Doctor (note least favourite, not worst

) and that era is very 'safe'. For some reason if I close my eyes and think about it, all that comes to mind is a dull green colour (I assume that's the colour of the walls at UNIT HQ).

Pertwee's first season is smashing though. And the rest of it is still brimming with wonderful images: the Auton policeman tumbling down the cliff face, the Sea Devils rising from the ocean, the Drashings bursting out of the swamps, the timey-wimeyness of Day of the Daleks. And kudos to Barry Letts for so often opting for issue-led stories.

Brendocon wrote:
[Murray Gold's music is awful too ]

I guess it's not for everyone. It is sometimes repetitive, but so much work goes into giving the different characters and plotlines their own themes, I think it's an impressive body of work.

And take something like Vale Decum. It's a wonderful piece of music in it's own right, but I can see why when playing alongside the regeneration some people might feel it's a bit OTT.

But the Doctor Who proms are glorious affairs. I love this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZaVlwEvcUQ

(warning - contains spoilers for Tennant's last episode)

Brendocon · Post by **Brendocon** » Sat Mar 10, 2012 1:43 pm

spiderfrommars wrote:Pertwee's first season is smashing though. And the rest of it is still brimming with wonderful images: the Auton policeman tumbling down the cliff face, the Sea Devils rising from the ocean, the Drashings bursting out of the swamps, the timey-wimeyness of Day of the Daleks. And kudos to Barry Letts for so often opting for issue-led stories.

There's some great and iconic stuff buried away in Pertwee's run, but it's often undermined by a combination of the lead's performance and the stories generally being 2-3 episodes too long (admittedly not an issue unique to those specific seasons).

Brendocon wrote:I guess it's not for everyone. It is sometimes repetitive, but so much work goes into giving the different characters and plotlines their own themes, I think it's an impressive body of work.

I'll clarify: on its own merits, Gold's pieces are stunning sweeping and quite elegant pieces. Sadly I don't think they're suited to the manner in which they're used on the show.

The right piece of music at the right time can, obviously, enhance the emotional impact of a scene. But too often it just feels like they've gone "well, this is meant to be dramatic/exciting/sad, but rather than work the scene to make the viewer feel that, we'll just stick on the bit of Murray's score that we use as shorthand for that emotion."

It's lazy, annoying, repetitive and (I find) more than a little insulting. What's worse is where the director actually nails the emotion of the scene, but then some heavy-handed music kicks in (just to make sure) and I want to feel the opposite just out of spite. :/

Shanti418 · Post by **Shanti418** » Sat Mar 10, 2012 5:21 pm

lol.

Aside from our Matha/Marfa divide Brend, I don't think we've been THAT diametrically opposed. I wasn't a huge fan of Doctor's Daughter, it's just that when the episode ends with "Oh wow, I'm still alive, off to see the universe and have lots of adventures, and the Doctor doesn't know about it!," it seems like they're setting up something.

And as far as any sort of cynicism ruining my ears, two points:

1. This site is a magnet (a slightly more powerful magnet back in the day) for the cynics and the "glass half empty" people of TF. Think everything besides Furman sucks? That Pat Lee is a tool? Truck, not Monkey? Costa is a Chaotic c*cksucker? I'm sure transfans has a place for you!

2. http://transfans.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2964 I can and HAVE gone there to hear ya'll discussing the relaunch like a bunch of giddy, excited schoolgirls. (j/k. A little bit.)

Watch the Library two parter and the one before that, what was that again? Oh yes, Agatha Christie and the Giant Alien Bee. That was....not the best. That was like a poor man's version of the Shakespeare episode: less engaging historical figure, less interesting and well-known mystery, not as funny when Donna gives her Marple, and even more hokey bad guy. "Then he showed me that he was an alien and turned into a giant bee, but it didn't matter, I loved him!"

Anyway, yes, library. I dunno. Liked the huge library, liked the hunters in their woods, liked the trippy, multiple-reality thing going on, liked the "Gridlockesque" twist of the corporate industrialist guy not being interested in Pay-tent (Pay-tent? Is that how you guys say it? It's Pah-tent over here) but actually his kin. The neural ghost thing was interesting if you don't think about it too much.

It's like, not really sure I want to see too much more of this "River Song?!?," but it's got to be better than Donna. When she was in the system, I was like, "Oh, sweet, Donna's over! Oh, wait, what about her granddad? I'm sure he'll be sad. Well, I guess we'd better save her."
That was an awesome, awesome acting job by the Doctor in his reaction to having River whisper his name.

But yeah, don't worry about killing me with your cynic-bullets (although you killed bumble, apparently. But according to Facebook, he's lost in Downtown Abbey, so you may have lost the cultural battle but won the cultural war with him). Dr. Who has never been portrayed as you guys as anything but good, sometimes uneven fun. For me, only having a hazy memory of 80s Dr. Who (and this memory is probably "Oddly dressed fellow looking like Wonka acting zany and condescending largely on a single set, ie the TARDIS), this has exceeded my expectations. There's so much imagination in Who. Entire races, entire worlds, entire concepts in 43 minutes. I don't care what the budget is, I believe! lol And like I mentioned earlier, I don't know if this is more of an endorsement of schlocky Who production values, or an indictment of the quality and creativity of American television, where everything needs to be serious, realistic, and judiciously parsed over the course of countless hours. I'd rather be taken on a cheesy, half baked, full of plot holes ride that's fun than be on a tightly scripted, full budget ride to boredom.

Post by **spiderfrommars** » Sat Mar 10, 2012 7:35 pm

Shanti418 wrote:
http://transfans.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2964 I can and HAVE gone there to hear ya'll discussing the relaunch like a bunch of giddy, excited schoolgirls. (j/k. A little bit.)

BTW, where the heck is Rebis?

Shanti418 wrote: There's so much imagination in Who. Entire races, entire worlds, entire concepts in 43 minutes.

Exactly! Something like BSG just needs a genius concept to run for 4 seasons. But with Doctor Who, not only does it have a genius concept, but EACH episode needs to have one too. And in each one a whole world and cast of characters is built from the ground up. It's amazing what they accomplish.

Shanti418 wrote: I don't know if this is more of an endorsement of schlocky Who production values, or an indictment of the quality and creativity of American television, where everything needs to be serious, realistic, and judiciously parsed over the course of countless hours. I'd rather be taken on a cheesy, half baked, full of plot holes ride that's fun than be on a tightly scripted, full budget ride to boredom.