Star Trek cast

[Kaylee]

Some of them quite charming archetypes - but not much changes.

That's about spot-on. It also ties in nicely with how all the characters tend to feel so similar one series to the next and how much trouble the show has in breaking new ground.

[sprunkner]

I couldn't do B5 and I can't rewatch Trek. Every time I just cringe. Guess I'll have to content myself with BSG and Firefly.

[Brendocon]

B5 gets better after the first season when they get an actual actor in the central role.

Yeah, it's a bit cheesy and clichéd, but factoring in when it was made, it was streets ahead. Not much in it that you don't get in stuff everywhere nowadays, but it was doing a lot of it before it was commonplace.

[Legion]

Reminds me. Still need to get round to watching season 5 of B5.

Hrm.

Really, honestly, don't put yourself out... it can wait...
As long as you're familiar with season's 2,3,4 then that's the real B5...

[Best First]

I couldn't do B5 and I can't rewatch Trek. Every time I just cringe. Guess I'll have to content myself with BSG and Firefly.

i suspect you will cope.

still need to do season 3 of BSG. bad geek...

I used to be massively into B5, but i don't feel that compelled to watch it all the way through again. I only watched a few teh other day as i was at home and there was nowt to do and i found a few volumes of season 4.

In their days seasons 2-4 were ace though.

5 had a few moments but was mostly a shame.

Some of them quite charming archetypes - but not much changes.

That's about spot-on. It also ties in nicely with how all the characters tend to feel so similar one series to the next and how much trouble the show has in breaking new ground.

AND (thinking about it a bit more) - there would be some vague stab at things being different in the opening couple of episodes, but then everyone settles into 'Happy Federation' mode - i mean Voyager, where half the crew are supposed to be rebels but within about ten minutes they are all just Starfleet crew, or Sisko's supposed hatred of Picard etc etc. Hey look this series is differen.... inverse the warp core, we have a breach, science guy, what do we do? Something thats technically impossible captain, gimme 5 minutes, and don't forget to resolve the plot point about Navigations guys background that has never been previously mentioned and won't be mentioned again.

The irony is that the best eps were always the alt reality ones (because al bets were off - like the tNG one where the Feds/Klingons were still at war or the Voyager one where.. i forget) or the very few in world ones with a sense of consequence, like the early Borg stuff but the pattern that most eps seem to follow is to start at square one and return everything there by the time the admittedly quite catchy theme tunes comes up. So really, who gives a crap if the warp core is going to blow up in five minutes or some guy from Newcastle with sh*t sunglasses has suddenly remembered he was bummed by his dad (this may not have been an actual plot point)? Cos next week no one will ever mention it ever again.

Huh. I have a lot to say about this it seems, i think the thing that probably irks me is there are how many episodes of this largeley average stuff and how many of Firefly?

Ergo, Star Trek is proof the world is full of idiots.

But don't worry we will have forgotten this lesson by next week. grr.

[Kaylee]

Some of them quite charming archetypes - but not much changes.

That's about spot-on. It also ties in nicely with how all the characters tend to feel so similar one series to the next and how much trouble the show has in breaking new ground.

AND (thinking about it a bit more) - there would be some vague stab at things being different in the opening couple of episodes, but then everyone settles into 'Happy Federation' mode - i mean Voyager, where half the crew are supposed to be rebels but within about ten minutes they are all just Starfleet crew, or Sisko's supposed hatred of Picard etc etc. Hey look this series is differen.... inverse the warp core, we have a breach, science guy, what do we do? Something thats technically impossible captain, gimme 5 minutes, and don't forget to resolve the plot point about Navigations guys background that has never been previously mentioned and won't be mentioned again.

The irony is that the best eps were always the alt reality ones (because al bets were off - like the tNG one where the Feds/Klingons were still at war or the Voyager one where.. i forget) or the very few in world ones with a sense of consequence, like the early Borg stuff but the pattern that most eps seem to follow is to start at square one and return everything there by the time the admittedly quite catchy theme tunes comes up. So really, who gives a crap if the warp core is going to blow up in five minutes or some guy from Newcastle with sh*t sunglasses has suddenly remembered he was bummed by his dad (this may not have been an actual plot point)? Cos next week no one will ever mention it ever again.

Huh. I have a lot to say about this it seems, i think the thing that probably irks me is there are how many episodes of this largeley average stuff and how many of Firefly?

Ergo, Star Trek is proof the world is full of idiots.

But don't worry we will have forgotten this lesson by next week. grr.

Whilst I'm in complete agreement with that I think it's only fair to observe in Star Trek's defense, imo, (or at least as far as the Next Gen is concerned, which is a guilty pleasure of mine) that large complicated character interplays, long-term development and other more mature concepts in story-telling were not common at the time (1987-1994). Leastways I can't think of any contemporary popular show which incorporated them. It was very much the product of its time and, also imo, we've been spoilt with some very good, character driven drama/scifi recently (things like the Sopranos, Deadwood etc) which have raised expectations dramatically.

The more recent series though have no excuse for being dross.

[Brendocon]

I'm actually happy that there'll be no more Firefly... every episode is a varying degree of good. The longer a series goes on, the more average episodes it produces.

I'd hate for FF to come back and produce an episode that was less than superb. Just look to Only Fools & Horses.

Reminds me. Still need to get round to watching season 5 of B5.

Hrm.

Really, honestly, don't put yourself out... it can wait...
As long as you're familiar with season's 2,3,4 then that's the real B5...

Aye. This is the thing - I got to the end of season 4 and the entire thing felt finished. A few minor things left hanging, but nothing that I'd sit through an entire season that I've largely seen slated for.

Shame the last episode of season 4 was godawful, though.

[inflatable dalek]

[or Sisko's supposed hatred of Picard etc etc.

I actually caught the end of that on Virgin 1 the other day- It's a very nice piece of acting on Avery Brooks part when they shake hands, his expression just oozes "I still ******* hate you, but I actually want this job now so I'll play nice". In fact, Sisko's by far and away the most interesting Captain as a character- from the point around the end of season 3 where he actually starts to believe he is a God he basically becomes a full on nut job...

DS9 may have started off as a poor imitation, but by the end it was doing B5 better than B5 was. They managed to end their war at the end of the show which helped, as did not planning overly far ahead- Loosing Dax not only didn't hurt the last season but let them do some interesting things (not least of which the very cute Nicole De Boar). Loosing Ivonova completely scuppered the early episodes of season 5 of B5 and it never really recovered.

What TOS and TNG both did really, really well was taking a SF idea and doing something interesting with it for 45 minuets. City on the Edge... is the best time travel episode of any show you'll ever see, Yesterdays Enterprise the best alternate universe, Best of Both Worlds the best invasion ect.

[Best First]

i politely disagree.

[inflatable dalek]

i politely disagree.

With which bit? Or all of it ( )?

You know the sad thing about Enterprise? The only great bit of the whole four years being the CGI Enterprise D in the last episode...

[Kaylee]

i politely disagree.

With which bit? Or all of it ( )?

You know the sad thing about Enterprise? The only great bit of the whole four years being the CGI Enterprise D in the last episode...

And the Dean Stockwell cameo

But yes, apart from that, four years utterly wasted. They might do best thinking about it to just give Trek a rest for a decade or so to let the feeling of saturation die down.

[inflatable dalek]

Which is such a shame considering that Scott Backula (a man who once played a monkey convicingly) could have been the best Captain of the lot...

[Brendocon]

i politely disagree.

You unwell?

[Legion]

I'm actually happy that there'll be no more Firefly... every episode is a varying degree of good. The longer a series goes on, the more average episodes it produces.

I'd hate for FF to come back and produce an episode that was less than superb. Just look to Only Fools & Horses.

Reminds me. Still need to get round to watching season 5 of B5.

Hrm.

Really, honestly, don't put yourself out... it can wait...
As long as you're familiar with season's 2,3,4 then that's the real B5...

Aye. This is the thing - I got to the end of season 4 and the entire thing felt finished. A few minor things left hanging, but nothing that I'd sit through an entire season that I've largely seen slated for.

Shame the last episode of season 4 was godawful, though.

That's because they made season 4 thinking that they were going to be cancelled, that's why they rushed the conclusion of the shadow war in the first half of the season and had to do the whole mars rebellion thing in half a season. afterwards they found out that they were getting a fifth season, so they moved the last episode that they'd filmed to the end of season 5 and went back and quickly made a new last episode for season 4 and invented the whole 'telepath war' for season 5's arc because they'd already wrapped up the main plots...

[Brendocon]

Yep. Knew that - doesn't make me want to watch season 5 any more, though.

[inflatable dalek]

The Telepath conflict was always going to be part of season 5, it would have just been less episodes and had Ivonova in Lyta's role.

[Best First]

i politely disagree.

With which bit? Or all of it ( )?

You know the sad thing about Enterprise? The only great bit of the whole four years being the CGI Enterprise D in the last episode...

er, most if it?

Prefer B5, mainly because i largely ignore season 5 as it was scuppered by idiot execs (as with so many things). That's probably not really fair in some ways as obvioulsy s5 still exists, but i knew about the mess before it started so in my head i don't really count it. Probably cos it got there first as well to some extent. Highly subjective i know.

And i could probably list episodes from other sci-fi shows that i think are better versions of some what you listed, but, er, i realised i could not be arsed, hence my brief response.

sorry to be flip!

[Brendocon]

We have to go easy on Dalek - he's only just started new BSG.

[Legion]

The Telepath conflict was always going to be part of season 5, it would have just been less episodes and had Ivonova in Lyta's role.

That's true, i should have said reworked instead of invented...

On the plus side i guess, Season 5 did feature quite a bit of Lyta...

[Best First]

We have to go easy on Dalek - he's only just started new BSG.

ah, so that's why he doesn't know that the best alternate reality episode of any show is actually the one where Boomer and Starbuck and Number 6 all live together in a sex dungeon and lez up a lot.

Eh, its probably got Lucy Lawless in as well - i forget...

[inflatable dalek]

That's not the best alternate Universe, that's porn that is.

[Shanti418]

DS9 may have started off as a poor imitation, but by the end it was doing B5 better than B5 was. They managed to end their war at the end of the show which helped, as did not planning overly far ahead- Loosing Dax not only didn't hurt the last season but let them do some interesting things (not least of which the very cute Nicole De Boar). Loosing Ivonova completely scuppered the early episodes of season 5 of B5 and it never really recovered.

The only reason that B5's war didn't end at the end of the show was because of cancellation issues, issues that TNG didn't have because of its built in viewer base from TOS. Even then, in the 5th season when it moved from syndication to TNT here in the US, it did comparable numbers with TNG.

Losing Ivanova sucked, and I wasn't a big fan of Captain Lochley, but in terms of where the 5th season had to go, with Sheridan being President/Psi Problems/The Tragic Arc of Londo Molari, I don't think Ivanova was missed in the story structurally as much as she was missed by the fan base.

Furthermore, when I said that DS9 and B5 were similar, I was more thinking about the fact that:
Babylon 5: Space station by a jump gate, Race that is seen as Gods making trouble (shadows), secretive government body (Psi-Corps), fancy ship to explore in (White Star)
DS9: Space station by a stable worm hole, Race that is seen as Gods making trouble (Dominion/Changelings), secretive government body (Section 31), fancy ship to explore in (Defiant)

I still think season 5 was good. Not as good as if JMS had known there was going to be one ahead of time, but enjoyable television, as much if not more so than 1 or 2.

[Predabot]

Did you lot read about JMS wanting to revamp Trek? Was a few years ago. He basically said he wanted to go right back to basics, to the original ideas and themes of TOS.

Let me see if I can dig it up... Ok, this is not the original article, but it will have to do.

http://www.trekbbs.com/threads/showflat ... er=4007360

Basically, he didn't get to do it, now did he? But if this new movie is turning out the way I'm guessing, it would appear as if someone else did indeed get to do it.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

I agree with pretty much all said but I just cant get into firefly, it all feels a bit cheesy to me, and i find the plot lines, well dull, i dunno, maybe im missing somthing?

When I line up against B5, BSG, and alot of ST, I just find it shallow?

I wonder what the new Star Wars series is oing to be like, its on next year according to Lucas.

[BB Shockwave]

Getting back on Trek (hehe) with the actual topic of the new Trek Movie - I wonder why no-one seems to be worried about the fact the the scriptwriters are Kurtzmann, Orci and an added horror-movie writer... You know, the guys who graced us with moments like Bumblebee pissing on federal agents or that fat black codebreaker guy.

I'm pretty sure this movie will be the final nail in the ST franchise's coffin... also pretty sure that Orci and Kurtzmann will have to do plastic surgery to escape the wrath of the enraged Trekkie fans. I mean, the TF fanbase is pretty mild compared to them, and yet Bay got death threats, no?

As for the series - I read your thoughts, and though I agree that BF's statement that the all the shows pretty much repeat the same pattern with archetypes is somewhat true, I must remind you that there was serious character development during the shows in some cases, that wasn't forgotten "after the credits". Take Seven for example... or Troy, who during the last seasons became a little bit more then useless. But most importantly, there was Data, one of my all-time fav. Trek characters. At the end of the NG, he almost achieved humanity, IMHO.

Enterprise was... an interesting idea that would have needed more editorial control as to not f*ck up continuity with stuff like the Xindi attack or the Solibans. ("Gee new races waaay before TOS, wonder why we never heard of them in all the other shows"). The episodes where they encounter Vulcans or Klingons were much better, and I think Enterprise did a lot to establish the Andorians as a well-known race.

What should be done now... Well I for one say a full-reboot couldn't be bad. They could retcon is as a sort of "Elseworlds" story if reception is bad. But if it sticks to the main Trek principles it could still gather some fanbase.

Other way is, to do a show set after the return of the Voyager. As some pointed it out, the Federation and its utopian ways are not realistic these days... so why not destroy it? They could do a big Borg invasion which although doesn't succeed, but still that leaves the whole Alpha Quadrant in ruins, old alliances crumble, new ones are made. They can even bring in some races from the Delta Quadrant who arrive to scavange the remains of empires. It could be a more warlike series but it'd still center on the "adventures" of a starship and it's crew.


Well, just me two cents.

[Hot Shot]

Getting back on Trek (hehe) with the actual topic of the new Trek Movie - I wonder why no-one seems to be worried about the fact the the scriptwriters are Kurtzmann, Orci and an added horror-movie writer... You know, the guys who graced us with moments like Bumblebee pissing on federal agents or that fat black codebreaker guy.

I'm pretty sure this movie will be the final nail in the ST franchise's coffin... also pretty sure that Orci and Kurtzmann will have to do plastic surgery to escape the wrath of the enraged Trekkie fans. I mean, the TF fanbase is pretty mild compared to them, and yet Bay got death threats, no?

Kurtzman and Orci are supposed to be Trek fans, though they may be lying for reasons stated above. I'll still give them the benefit of the doubt, for reasons unknown to me. This movie could swing both ways. I have to say, if the writers value their lives they'll put their best into it. When things went downhill, TF fans gave empty death threats and "got used to it". Trek fans would hire assasins, buy guns, and riot.

[Best First]

I agree with pretty much all said but I just cant get into firefly, it all feels a bit cheesy to me, and i find the plot lines, well dull, i dunno, maybe im missing somthing?

When I line up against B5, BSG, and alot of ST, I just find it shallow?

despite the fact that it has better charachterisation, a more convincing universe, better interplay...

basically, its you.

[Brendocon]

If by shallow you mean it's not got the epic scope of being some galaxy-altering big thing or whatever... then I get where you're coming from. But it's not meant to be. It's not about some big evil empire or genocide or alien invasion where this one man is the only thing who can stop it.

It's about a bloke. Who's been shafted by the universe. And is just trying to get by. And who gets thrust into the middle of something he's desperately trying to avoid.

It's about life.

It's a western, more than it is a sci-fi program.

And as far as epic galaxy-changing scope goes... well, that's what Serenity was for.

[Shanti418]

As for the series - I read your thoughts, and though I agree that BF's statement that the all the shows pretty much repeat the same pattern with archetypes is somewhat true, I must remind you that there was serious character development during the shows in some cases, that wasn't forgotten "after the credits". Take Seven for example... or Troy, who during the last seasons became a little bit more then useless. But most importantly, there was Data, one of my all-time fav. Trek characters. At the end of the NG, he almost achieved humanity, IMHO.

Still though, that's an archetpye popularized by ST.

ST: What does it mean to be human? Hmmm....let's have a half Vulcan, half Human! Vulcans are cold and logical, and we'll make him discover feelings!

STTNG: What does it mean to be human? Hmmm....let's have an android who wants to be human! Androids are cold and logical, and we'll make him discover feelings!

Voyager: What does it mean to be human? Hmmm....let's have a recovering Borg who wants to be human AGAIN! (What a plot twist! And she's hot, too!) Borgs are cold and logical, and we'll make her REdiscover her feelings!

[inflatable dalek]

To be fair though, Data's not a Spock rip off, he's nicked wholesale froma failed TV pilot Roddenberry did in the 70's where the robot was played by Robert "Movie Ratchet" Foxworth.