Scientology and me

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Tue May 15, 2007 8:07 pm

"I am god!"
It cannot be proven or disproven - so, when I claim to be god, do people of faith belive me or call me a nutter? i expect option B, so why is a religious god any different?

wideload · Post by **wideload** » Tue May 15, 2007 8:43 pm

Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:"I am god!"
It cannot be proven or disproven - so, when I claim to be god, do people of faith belive me or call me a nutter? i expect option B, so why is a religious god any different?

Faith can mean a number of different beliefs. So yes it is possible thta people's faith could mean the belief you are God, but it is very unlikely. A religious God is different because there are aspects of community in religion and from a philisophical point of view it makes much more sense. A great number of philosophers some of who were geniuses have discussed the existence of God without coming to any conclusions....

Then again you always have the South Park argument during the mormon episode. It doesnt matter what actually exists as long as you look at the good things religious tenants can bring about.

Post by **Denyer** » Tue May 15, 2007 11:29 pm

Infinite suffering awaits all those who question God's infinite love?

"Thank you, forgiving Lord, for all those options."

Or other observations.

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Wed May 16, 2007 12:25 am

wideload wrote:
Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:"I am god!"
It cannot be proven or disproven - so, when I claim to be god, do people of faith belive me or call me a nutter? i expect option B, so why is a religious god any different?

Faith can mean a number of different beliefs. So yes it is possible thta people's faith could mean the belief you are God, but it is very unlikely. A religious God is different because there are aspects of community in religion and from a philisophical point of view it makes much more sense. A great number of philosophers some of who were geniuses have discussed the existence of God without coming to any conclusions....

Then again you always have the South Park argument during the mormon episode. It doesnt matter what actually exists as long as you look at the good things religious tenants can bring about.

yeah but thats my point exactly, If i am god, and im telling everyone of faith right now that i am, and you dont belive me, your ******.

Dare challange me, what if your wrong? u go to hell. i am telling u right now, i am god.

i am everything u read in the bible, the koran, u name it, i am it. so if u dont belive me, your going to hell.

doesnt work does it.

Professor Smooth · Post by **Professor Smooth** » Wed May 16, 2007 2:24 am

Impy, you are wasting your time here. Go tell some religious folk that you are God. At worst they don't believe you, at best, you're bloody wealthy!

Also: "It doesnt matter what actually exists as long as you look at the good things religious tenants can bring about."

What about all the bad things? The REALLY bad things. I mean, not running around killing, raping, and stealing... that worked itself out long before Christianity. But denying funding for medical research and dragging homosexuals behind your pickup...that takes religion!

It takes religion to make people do things that fly in the face of all logical reason.

wideload · Post by **wideload** » Wed May 16, 2007 4:56 am

Professor Smooth wrote:Impy, you are wasting your time here. Go tell some religious folk that you are God. At worst they don't believe you, at best, you're bloody wealthy!

Also: "It doesnt matter what actually exists as long as you look at the good things religious tenants can bring about."

What about all the bad things? The REALLY bad things. I mean, not running around killing, raping, and stealing... that worked itself out long before Christianity. But denying funding for medical research and dragging homosexuals behind your pickup...that takes religion!

It takes religion to make people do things that fly in the face of all logical reason.

I 100% agree. Religious beliefs in the wrong hands lead to awful things. But it isnt just religious beliefs that do that. Racial, Nationalistic, Political, etc.. can all lead to the same conclusions.

The reality is that people are always going to have beliefs and some of tthose people are goign to rationalize them to do awful things. I don't think getting rid of religion will fix that.

IronHide · Post by **IronHide** » Wed May 16, 2007 5:36 am

wideload wrote:
The reality is that people are always going to have beliefs and some of tthose people are goign to rationalize them to do awful things. I don't think getting rid of religion will fix that.

QFT!

This is one of the better discussions about religion, keep it up Wideload!

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Wed May 16, 2007 11:44 am

wideload wrote: The reality is that people are always going to have beliefs and some of tthose people are goign to rationalize them to do awful things. I don't think getting rid of religion will fix that.

Well,simply it would, it would get rid of religious killings? I dont need to tell you how many people that would save around the world!.

Its not going to happen, so.

Anyhows, faith, yeah, for me faith doesnt really work because it just sounds like a child argument.
Essentially if you dont belive in somthing for a very good reason, ie there is no evidence to support your belife in any way whatsoever, u just claim "have faith"

Think about that? - its fair to say alot of people around the world were not happy with Tony Blair and Gerorge Bushs decsion to go to war, there wasnt enough evidence to support WMD's, the key word there is 'evidence' - if Bush and Tony had said, ok, we have no evidence but just have 'faith' in us, I seriously doubt anyone on earth would have supported them.
as it stands they are so unpopular now because essentially, they were left with saying 'I belive I was doing the right things' in the words of T.Blair, which is pretty much like saying 'Have faith in my decsion'

Now, that simply doesnt wash with most people, amazingly tho, T.Blair actually has evidence to support his claim, more so than the existant of God. who has none.

Yet, people of faith dont accept T.Blairs claims, or G.Bush etc...
So faith seems very subjective doesnt it? - if you have evidence, u cant have faith, if u have no evidence you can have faith. so what is faith?

Faith is an instrument used to cover up the holes in arguments you cannot win, if you dont have an answer, find faith, if you cant convince someone, tell them they need faith, and when its all gone wrong, have faith!

I was thinking today that there is more evidence to support the existance of alien races than there is a god, yet we have never met an alien... faith eh!

Professor Smooth · Post by **Professor Smooth** » Wed May 16, 2007 1:09 pm

Well said.

It would be nearly impossible to argue that. Let's see who disagrees.

Yaya · Post by **Yaya** » Wed May 16, 2007 6:03 pm

wideload wrote: In fact, that is why they call it faith.... logic/science can neither prove nor disprove God.

Except for me the sciences, both the physical and biological, are some of the greatest affirmations of God's existence. After studying many facets of both of these in great detail, this is my conclusion. That based on what I have learned, that things were "created", and the laws of science, given their order and structure, did not happen without outside unscientific influence.

Well,simply it would, it would get rid of religious killings? I dont need to tell you how many people that would save around the world!.

And from a practical standpoint, did you ever stop to consider the number of killings religion has stopped. I mean, if we're going to talk practicality, no force has been greater in staying the hand of the thief or the murderer than fear of retribution by a Being who is Aware of all things.

But no, atheists only like to point out the killings performed in the name of religion, not those acts that God's presence has stymied through fear and love of Him.

Faith is an instrument used to cover up the holes in arguments you cannot win, if you dont have an answer, find faith, if you cant convince someone, tell them they need faith, and when its all gone wrong, have faith!

In Islam, Iman (Faith) increases by obedience to God and good deeds while it decreases by sins and evil acts.

So how can it be understood by one, or experienced by one, who does not believe in God to begin with? Belief is a prerequisite to increasing faith, which is something that is subject to change based on one's actions.

Expecting an atheist to understand faith is like expecting the person born blind to know what seeing is.

The Last Autobot · Post by **The Last Autobot** » Wed May 16, 2007 6:38 pm

Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:
Think about that? - its fair to say alot of people around the world were not happy with Tony Blair and Gerorge Bushs decsion to go to war, there wasnt enough evidence to support WMD's, the key word there is 'evidence' - if Bush and Tony had said, ok, we have no evidence but just have 'faith' in us, I seriously doubt anyone on earth would have supported them.
as it stands they are so unpopular now because essentially, they were left with saying 'I belive I was doing the right things' in the words of T.Blair, which is pretty much like saying 'Have faith in my decsion'

And what moves those people? Faith? or Greed? or nationalism? Isnt religion more of a scapegoat in war than the reason?

Post by **Kaylee** » Wed May 16, 2007 7:27 pm

It's that time again, sports fans

{pulls up an easy chair and munches some popcorn}

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed May 16, 2007 7:44 pm

Yaya wrote:Expecting an atheist to understand faith is like expecting the person born blind to know what seeing is.

Except that blind people can still sense other parts of the electromagnetic spectrum and there isn't a sensory organ for perceiving faith.

wideload · Post by **wideload** » Wed May 16, 2007 8:28 pm

Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:
wideload wrote: The reality is that people are always going to have beliefs and some of tthose people are goign to rationalize them to do awful things. I don't think getting rid of religion will fix that.
Well,simply it would, it would get rid of religious killings? I dont need to tell you how many people that would save around the world!.

I dont think that it is really religion that is the problem. If you got rid of religion people would just find another ideological excuse to kill eachother. I dont think religion is the root of the problem. The problem is the way people express their beliefs and the respect they have for others. Basically, the root of all problems is extremism. People become so obsessed with their idelogies that they are willing to use any method to achieve these idelogies. A large part of why we need a written law and why religion should be kept seperate from it.

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Wed May 16, 2007 11:56 pm

Of course and I agree to some extents but its hard to find somthing other that religion that compels people to kill or die for in the numbers we have seen recently or in history.

We have been over this a million times on this board, and its been debated on end, I think both sides have made thier points respectivly, and have given good argument and reason to the debate.

I think i have been vocal enough on the subject and dont feel I can add much more to the debate on the subject of faith and religion. some people feel what i have written is good, and others dont, and i also feel its been covered enough on my behalf. I dont want to rattle on about such subjects any more becuse i think it just bogs down the debate as such.

Id like to hope the debate on such subjects remains open to all on transfans and doesnt get to fixed to stop other getting involved.
Im not saying anyone else should stop debating the matter of course, I just feel I am repeating myself and it wouldnt be healthy for the subject.

sprunkner · Post by **sprunkner** » Thu May 17, 2007 1:41 am

wideload wrote:
Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:
wideload wrote: The reality is that people are always going to have beliefs and some of tthose people are goign to rationalize them to do awful things. I don't think getting rid of religion will fix that.
Well,simply it would, it would get rid of religious killings? I dont need to tell you how many people that would save around the world!.

I dont think that it is really religion that is the problem. If you got rid of religion people would just find another ideological excuse to kill eachother. I dont think religion is the root of the problem. The problem is the way people express their beliefs and the respect they have for others. Basically, the root of all problems is extremism. People become so obsessed with their idelogies that they are willing to use any method to achieve these idelogies. A large part of why we need a written law and why religion should be kept seperate from it.

See this is the sensible solution that is always brought up in these discussions. So why don't we all agree on it?

Can antireligious bias be brought to these extremes? Hell yes. Why not let your hatred of religion go and acknowledge that it can be both bad and good, like any philosophy?

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Thu May 17, 2007 1:51 am

Because its not that simple ?

I guess thats why the topic can garner so much debate, there are so many different arguments, so many levels to contemplate upon.

Seriously if there was a simple answer to it all, great, yet i can find none that sway my outlook.

All good tho. debate is better than blowing up people with bombs because your version allah differs slightly from your brothers 1 mile down the road.... hehe, just playing

wideload · Post by **wideload** » Thu May 17, 2007 1:54 am

Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:Of course and I agree to some extents but its hard to find somthing other that religion that compels people to kill or die for in the numbers we have seen recently or in history.

.

The biggest humanitarian crisis right now is the Sudan. Way more dead there than all other conflicts combined. It is muslims killing muslims because they are of a different race.

sprunkner · Post by **sprunkner** » Thu May 17, 2007 3:52 am

Wideload's answer isn't simple. The answer that we would all be better off without religion is simple.

Professor Smooth · Post by **Professor Smooth** » Thu May 17, 2007 5:00 am

Religion is not devoid of good points. That does nothing to make it true, though.

For example, I have, on more than one occassion, found myself carrying something very heavy over a great distance. While a religious person might ask Jesus or Allah for the strength to keep going, I remember that scene in Kill Bill Volume 2 where The Bride is punching her way out of the coffin (strangely enough, with music playing in my head from the finale of that same movie). That does nothing to make The Bride a real person.

Religion both hurts and helps people. That is undeniably true. That does nothing to convince me that its true.

Post by **Denyer** » Thu May 17, 2007 7:13 am

Professor Smooth wrote:For example, I have, on more than one occassion, found myself carrying something very heavy over a great distance. While a religious person might ask Jesus or Allah for the strength to keep going, I remember that scene in Kill Bill Volume 2 where The Bride is punching her way out of the coffin (strangely enough, with music playing in my head from the finale of that same movie).

Raistlin. Slogging through the Abyss in 'Test of the Twins' and measuring out remaining life. Or possibly one of the earlier two books in that trilogy... I didn't read them in order as a kid, so the continuity's not very linear in my head. Pretty sure it was the third, though.

Good for distance running.

sprunkner · Post by **sprunkner** » Thu May 17, 2007 1:05 pm

I'm a big fan of crawling up Mt. Doom myself.

Professor Smooth wrote:Religion is not devoid of good points. That does nothing to make it true, though.

For example, I have, on more than one occassion, found myself carrying something very heavy over a great distance. While a religious person might ask Jesus or Allah for the strength to keep going, I remember that scene in Kill Bill Volume 2 where The Bride is punching her way out of the coffin (strangely enough, with music playing in my head from the finale of that same movie). That does nothing to make The Bride a real person.

Religion both hurts and helps people. That is undeniably true. That does nothing to convince me that its true.

I don't get how anyone on the site is trying to convert you.

Shanti418 · Post by **Shanti418** » Thu May 17, 2007 2:12 pm

*snuggles up to Karly and watches the action*

I was WONDERING why a Scientology thread was so popular.

But then I saw Hot Shot's "God is logical" post, and I was like, "Poor kid's gonna get himself torn up in there." And sure enough, Smooth descended upon the "God is logical" sentence like flies on *****. And the game is afoot.

Post by **Kaylee** » Thu May 17, 2007 2:38 pm

Did you bring the icecream?

Poor Hotshot didn't know what he was unleashing

Legion · Post by **Legion** » Thu May 17, 2007 3:22 pm

Professor Smooth wrote:Religion both hurts and helps people.

you can't have good without bad, one defines the other, in everything, not just religion - in fact, i've used that line in discussions about the Force before now just as rightly imho. my twopence, i'm now bowing out.

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Thu May 17, 2007 3:36 pm

so would it be better to just live without the force, and then u remove the good, but at least u dont have the bad aswell...

jedis are great but [composite word including 'f*ck'] me if the Sith didnt mess up the universe. catch my drift?

Yaya · Post by **Yaya** » Thu May 17, 2007 3:37 pm

Shanti418 wrote:*snuggles up to Karly and watches the action*

I was WONDERING why a Scientology thread was so popular.

But then I saw Hot Shot's "God is logical" post, and I was like, "Poor kid's gonna get himself torn up in there." And sure enough, Smooth descended upon the "God is logical" sentence like flies on *****. And the game is afoot.

Except Smooth is using human logic to decide whether God exists or not. If human beings are a fallible creation, then wouldn't their logic also be fallible?

Though I'm a big fan of logic (love Shockwave), I understand that what's logic to one is ignorance to another.

God's existence does not need to fit human rhyme or reason. If God exists, that is, an entity that has created everything, and is aware of even the tiniest particle in space across the galaxy, what hope do human beings have of understanding the workings and 'logic' of such a Power? Can we presume that our logic would compare to real knowledge of a Supreme Being?

It can't. Which is where faith comes in.

The purpose of faith is not explanation by human reasoning, as Smooth and others would demand of it. Part of faith is the acceptance that in the vast reaches of the universe, as fallible, ignorant beings in the grand scheme of things, we play a very small part.

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Thu May 17, 2007 3:43 pm

and u know why that doesnt work dont u?

because if humans are falible then rationalising the existance of god is immposible by your own definition.

natch.
you just explained away your god.

Post by **Denyer** » Thu May 17, 2007 5:32 pm

Yaya wrote:Except Smooth is using human logic to decide whether God exists or not. If human beings are a fallible creation, then wouldn't their logic also be fallible?

Particularly when it comes to writing holy books and passing them off as the will of that god.

IronHide · Post by **IronHide** » Thu May 17, 2007 6:29 pm

Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:and u know why that doesnt work dont u?

because if humans are falible then rationalising the existance of god is immposible by your own definition.

natch.
you just explained away your god.

No. Humans have the possibility to be falible, we dont all walk around being wrong 24/7.

And, if you wanna turn that card around....you're wrong about NOT rationalising the existance of God because you are a falible being.