Are people basically good?

Yaya · Post by **Yaya** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 1:39 am

The Last Autobot wrote:Good and Bad are Dc Golden Age characters. (And thats also the reason I love Marvel)

So Lord Order and Master Chaos are okay then?

sprunkner · Post by **sprunkner** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 4:57 am

For some reason (can't imagine why!) my shrink always wants to talk about stuff like this, in regards to the faith I used to have.

If I could believe that people were basically good then I think I would be okay with my non-notion of God and theology. If I could have faith in people then it wouldn't be so hard to live in this world full of them.

Predabot · Post by **Predabot** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 5:59 am

Yaya wrote:
The Last Autobot wrote:Good and Bad are Dc Golden Age characters. (And thats also the reason I love Marvel)
So Lord Order and Master Chaos are okay then?

You do realise that those two characters are not at all the same thing as "good" or "bad"? None of them are either completely evil or good. ( Alas in reality I know what your trying to say, but I'm too darn Marvel-christian to allow it!

)

A comparisson would be Ultimate Thanos that is Evil as all H*LL and wants total perfect order, and regular Carnage that wants utter chaos, also rather evil a character.

See? In Norse Mythology there is also less of a weight on good or evil, and more on order and chaos, chaos in the form of the trolls and giants, and order in the form of the Aesir.

Post by **Denyer** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 1:35 pm

sprunkner wrote:If I could believe that people were basically good then I think I would be okay

There's enough of what we find good -- at least there isn't open warfare in most suburban areas, people tend to smile back in stores if you act friendly, and most people don't actively wish harm on most others.

It may not seem it with the advent of instant global news reporting, but things muddle along, and the situation for most is far better than it would have been, say, a hundred years ago. The Western world's no longer dismissing half the population from most areas of employment on a whim, to pick another example... sure, things aren't perfect and probably never will be, but we can be relatively comfortable, and there is some room for fun.

Not watching news is probably a good idea. Remember, it's the bad stuff that sells papers, so that's what tends to be in them.

Brendocon · Post by **Brendocon** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 4:05 pm

Denyer wrote:Not watching news is probably a good idea. Remember, it's the bad stuff that sells papers, so that's what tends to be in them.

Yup. The Daily Mail may be reprehensible on pretty much every level, but it serves as a good example of what journalism isn't, so I guess in that respect it justifies its own existence.

sprunkner · Post by **sprunkner** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 12:27 am

Denyer wrote: Not watching news is probably a good idea. Remember, it's the bad stuff that sells papers, so that's what tends to be in them.

It's not the news so much as my passion for history, Den.

Post by **Best First** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 12:41 am

Mmm, but as much as history is littered with shitness, there is, certainly in western civilisation, also clearly a sense of progress - the progression of women's, gay and minority rights being obvious examples, the end of slavery, workers rights, the notion of the individual.

s'not all bad.

f*c k, look at this place.

people on the other side of the planet give a sh*t - that matters.

sprunkner · Post by **sprunkner** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 3:11 am

well said.

Shanti418 · Post by **Shanti418** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 4:39 pm

Best First wrote:Mmm, but as much as history is littered with shitness, there is, certainly in western civilisation, also clearly a sense of progress - the progression of women's, gay and minority rights being obvious examples, the end of slavery, workers rights, the notion of the individual.

s'not all bad.

f*c k, look at this place.

people on the other side of the planet give a sh*t - that matters.

Very true, although I'd like to point out that that progress is made by people going, "You know what? I'm going to go out and make this world a f****** better place, no matter who stands up against me or what they do to me," as opposed to going, "Well, I'm pretty sure we're advancing civilization and people are aiiight, so I'm just going to sit on my haunches and watch the show."

Post by **Best First** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 5:53 pm

Yes, i did not intend to imply otherwise.

But the fact that those who take action have often, eventually, found a receptive audience is also encourging.

And i think in a lot of cases this largely comes down to an ability to empathise beyond one's immediate situation, i.e i'm not living in Africa and i am not starving but i can apprecaiet it would be **** and donate money accordingly.

And the interesting thing about the example is that unless i make a point of telling people that i am doing this there is no real benefit from a socialisation perspective.

So, by and large, i would say that our ability to empathise is a powerful non holy source of 'goodness' (which i acknolwedge is a subjective definition).

And in terms of replacing 'religion' you ar really talking about equating a source of goodness rather than people being good ro bad per se themselves.

Regardless of said "do unto others as you would have doen unto you" is a pretty good mandate.

And that's why i regularly drop to me knees in front of fit girls and look up suggestively.

sprunkner · Post by **sprunkner** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 9:29 pm

Best First wrote:
And in terms of replacing 'religion' you are really talking about equating a source of goodness rather than people being good ro bad per se themselves.

So let me restate to clear this up: human caring is a worthy source of inspiration in itself. Enough that it can take the place of, or augment, the notion of a loving God.

Post by **Best First** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 10:04 pm

don't put any stock in the notion of god so that's not really for me to say mate i'm afraid.

seems a far more tangible and realistic thing to draw inspiration from to me though.

Along with a whole host or other things running from music through to the wonder of nature (which you really don't need to attach a magical creator to too apreciate IMO).

Shanti418 · Post by **Shanti418** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 6:43 am

Personally, I think the basis of any good atheistic set of morals is a huge amount of empathy.

Post by **Denyer** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 1:47 pm

It also works from a logical and mercenary point of view; pissing large numbers of people off isn't healthy. The inverse is also the case.

sprunkner wrote:So let me restate to clear this up: human caring is a worthy source of inspiration in itself. Enough that it can take the place of, or augment, the notion of a loving God.

Plus there's readily available evidence; it doesn't involve people saying/writing things like "so this invisible thing was talking to me, right, and it has a plan for your life."

Besters wrote:through to the wonder of nature

"All right. I admit it. He's got a point. The sunsets are bloody marvelous, you old bastard." –LCF

Post by **Best First** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 1:52 pm

Denyer wrote:thing was talking to me, right, and it has a plan for your life."

Besters wrote:through to the wonder of nature
"All right. I admit it. He's got a point. The sunsets are bloody marvelous, you old bastard." –LCF

Yeah, that scene did cross my mind as i wrote that.

sprunkner · Post by **sprunkner** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 10:02 pm

Best First wrote:
Denyer wrote:thing was talking to me, right, and it has a plan for your life."

Besters wrote:through to the wonder of nature
"All right. I admit it. He's got a point. The sunsets are bloody marvelous, you old bastard." –LCF
Yeah, that scene did cross my mind as i wrote that.

You get massive cool points for quoting Sandman, Season of Mists no less.

It seems weird for this to come as a shock, but remember that I'm trying to redajust my world view. For a long time I believed that human caring was a gift of God, that it flowed from God and back to Him.

So to connect that sort of thing to God in one's mind and then to stop really believing... it's kind of like removing the keystone in the Tinkertoys. I could rebuild it just as well, but it's where I placed that one piece.

Post by **Best First** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 10:10 pm

i remember mate, i just don't want to/can't pretend to give credence to some of the the things you used to.

Although i guess i would say that maybe in some ways the water still flows from the tap its just coming from a different resevoir, so maybe that's not so big a leap as it initially seems.

Be nice if there was some big plan and ****, but there probably isn't. And yet here we still are.

So that's our lot.

Post by **Denyer** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 10:28 pm

@S:

This is going to sound incredibly sappy, but if just the thought of someone makes you break out in a big silly grin -- well, it probably doesn't need all that much rebuilding.

I can't remember where I heard or read this (but I did), or when it was I consciously latched onto doing it, but I've got a few freeze-frame moments like that, and bringing them out of memory every so often -- just taking a moment to reflect, really -- keeps me happier. Stop, let the tension go out of your shoulders, and have a couple of deep breaths. Everybody needs to do that more.

Post by **Best First** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 11:03 pm

Wlking across london bridge on the way to work. Nice morning. Letting the view pull you out of the London charge to owork mentality. Job done.