300

[Metal Vendetta]

I saw the trailer before Hot Fuzz last night...it looks really ****ing good. It looks like it's just going to be lots and lots of fighting. Which is what I want.

Blacksword, I'm convinced you're insane but then my definition of insane extends to cover about 90% of the world's population, so I wouldn't feel too bad about it.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

Exactly, its got loads of fights, looks the ******* tits and has some fantastic music - if I want to work my brain cells harder ill watch somthing else.

no, this month I want violence in its purest, comic book form, and I dont give a [composite word including 'f*ck'] about History, its just a film!

[Aaron Hong]

"You see, old friend... I've brought more soldiers than you."

The audience LOL'ed at this line. Damned idiots at IMDB, THIS is a 'memorable quote'.

[spiderfrommars]

I thought it had great fight scenes, and crap everything else.

I guess I just don't like historical epics, which always have really dull worthy bits inbetween the battles.

The only one I can think of that I like is Last of the Mohicans...

[Blacksword]

Blacksword, I'm convinced you're insane but then my definition of insane extends to cover about 90% of the world's population, so I wouldn't feel too bad about it.

I can live with that

[Shanti418]

So how historically accurate was it, anyways?

My understanding of the situation was that the 300 Spartans, along with most of the other city states of Greece, did meet a Persian force. This was the first exposure to Spartan ideology for most of the other city states, as they were a bit reclusive, and isolated politically after they enslaved their neighbors, the something or others. They all kicked ass, other Greeks gained respect for Spartan warriors, and when the time came to retreat, the Spartans stayed to fight and die, killing around 10k Persians and slowing them down enough for all of Greece to gather their forces and really lay the smack down at a later time.


Yes or no? And what of all that political drama back at home? Did that happen? And did Perisan armies really have Battle Elephants already at that time?

[spiderfrommars]

My historical knowledge of the Persian Empire is pretty lame (poor show, considering my origins) but I can promise you they didn't have battle elephants! Or that Xerxes looked like The Rock's big brother.

Still, it is to be commended that the flick was true to Miller's vision. But unlike Sin City, I thought this worked better as a comic.

[Obfleur]

God damn that was a lot of ************** slow motion dickery.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

I think its brillant - Cant see whats wrong with it in anyway, perhaps the odd cheesy line.

[Ozz]

I think its brillant - Cant see whats wrong with it in anyway, perhaps the odd cheesy line.

Apparently, giving swords instead of spears to The Immortals destroyed the spirit of the movie and made it "americanised" (whatever the Hell that means). Or so I heard.

[Obfleur]

The fights were cool and all - but using slow motion when some dude is walking around, or when a couple is having sex, or when a oracle is having a seizure, etc etc really got ******* tiresome.
It felt like I was in syrup or something.

[IronHide]

I thought the slow motion fight scenes were incredible. They slowed down to show the kill and sped up inbetween. It was a pretty cool idea, the only thing that I can think of in an action movie that shares the same aspects was the Bullet Time in the Matrix movies.

Plus it allowed more time for the narraration, and that guy had a cool speaking voice.

[wideload]

My historical knowledge of the Persian Empire is pretty lame (poor show, considering my origins) but I can promise you they didn't have battle elephants! Or that Xerxes looked like The Rock's big brother.

Still, it is to be commended that the flick was true to Miller's vision. But unlike Sin City, I thought this worked better as a comic.

Battle elephants were actually pretty common place at that time.

Now if someone can tell me what was going on w/ that goat smoking drugs?

[spiderfrommars]

Battle elephants were actually pretty common place at that time.

Sure, but I can't find anything to suggest they were utilised at the Battle of Thermopylae.

I'm reading up on it now actually. Fascinating stuff, why can't we be taught cool stuff like this at school?

Plus it allowed more time for the narraration, and that guy had a cool speaking voice.

Bit OTT I thought.

[Aaron Hong]

Plus it allowed more time for the narraration, and that guy had a cool speaking voice.

"Shouting and cursing, more brawlers than warriors... They made a wonderful mess of things. Brave amateurs. They do their part..."

[Guest]

Battle elephants were actually pretty common place at that time.

Sure, but I can't find anything to suggest they were utilised at the Battle of Thermopylae.

Were they actually used in Europe prior to the time of Alexander?

In Asia, for nearly a thousand years, sure, but would there have been any in Europe prior to Alexander's incursion into Asia and his subsequent retreat?

[Blacksword]

If I recall correctly elephants were used against Alexander, but to my knowledge they weren't used in either Persian invasion of Greece. One reason that comes to mind is that shipping an elephant in the ships of the time would be a matter of some difficulty, and its debatable whether they could have crossed the boat bridge over the boat bridge over the Hellespont. Even if they did, there's the feeding requirements. Finally Greece has few sites suitable for large scale warfare. It's criss-crossed by mountain ranges, and as Hannibal found out elephants don't fare too well in mountains. So if they were to cross via the bridge, they'd have to cross several mount ranges and passes just to get to any suitable battle ground near the major city states. There's a reason that Greek armies were almost exclusively infantry.

[spiderfrommars]

Alexander. Now there's a ***** film.

[wideload]

Battle elephants were actually pretty common place at that time.

Sure, but I can't find anything to suggest they were utilised at the Battle of Thermopylae.

Were they actually used in Europe prior to the time of Alexander?

In Asia, for nearly a thousand years, sure, but would there have been any in Europe prior to Alexander's incursion into Asia and his subsequent retreat?

They might not have been used in Europe, but Syrians and Egyptians definately used them. Coudlnt find anything specifically about Persians though... I would assume that elements of Syria had been invaded and were fighting under a Persian banner at that point.

In terms of bringing them on a boat, I dont see why that would be anymore difficult than bringing regular cavalry. If you can bring a huge horse on, an elephant doesnt seem like that much of a stretch.

This site does seem to say that the persians definately did not use elephants, but gives no sourcse
http://www.chasingthefrog.com/reelfaces/300spartans.php

lol I just thought about how ridiculous it is that in a movie w/ so many unbelievable things that we are debated wether or not it was realistic to have battle elephants.

[spiderfrommars]

Cool link, cheers. I enjoyed reading up on the films there too.

[Blacksword]

In terms of bringing them on a boat, I dont see why that would be anymore difficult than bringing regular cavalry. If you can bring a huge horse on, an elephant doesnt seem like that much of a stretch.

from Wikipedia:
"The Asian Elephant tends to grow to around two to four meters (7–12 feet) in height and 3,000–5,000 kilograms (6,500–11,000 pounds) in weight."

now lets compare that to about the largest breed of horse

"Clydesdales are... animals exceeding 18 hands (1.8 meters or 6 feet) in height and over one ton (2,000 pounds) in weight."

Clydesdales are larger than Medieval European destrier's, the warhorses knights rode to battle on. Destrier's were among the strongest, and largest war horses ever bred, the only comparable breed would be those rode by heavily armoured Persian cataphracts centuries after Thermopolae. Contemporary war horses were much smaller, but for the sake of argument lets compare an Indian elephant to a clydesdale.

The smallest sized elephant (which probably would never have been used in war anyways) weighs three times as much as the horse, and the largest modern elephants weight 5 times more and are twice as tall. which means you need a pretty big cargo hold. But first you have to get the bloody thing in there. No steel cable and electric winches folks. Then if it gets spooked or mad you've got a pretty good chance of it sending the ship right to the bottom. The logistics of transporting an elephant in wooden ships with fairly shallow draughts (keep in mind ancient Mediterranean vessels rarely lost sight of the shore unless they absolutely had to) are enormously more complex than those of carrying horses.

[wideload]

In terms of bringing them on a boat, I dont see why that would be anymore difficult than bringing regular cavalry. If you can bring a huge horse on, an elephant doesnt seem like that much of a stretch.

from Wikipedia:
"The Asian Elephant tends to grow to around two to four meters (7–12 feet) in height and 3,000–5,000 kilograms (6,500–11,000 pounds) in weight."

now lets compare that to about the largest breed of horse

"Clydesdales are... animals exceeding 18 hands (1.8 meters or 6 feet) in height and over one ton (2,000 pounds) in weight."

Clydesdales are larger than Medieval European destrier's, the warhorses knights rode to battle on. Destrier's were among the strongest, and largest war horses ever bred, the only comparable breed would be those rode by heavily armoured Persian cataphracts centuries after Thermopolae. Contemporary war horses were much smaller, but for the sake of argument lets compare an Indian elephant to a clydesdale.

The smallest sized elephant (which probably would never have been used in war anyways) weighs three times as much as the horse, and the largest modern elephants weight 5 times more and are twice as tall. which means you need a pretty big cargo hold. But first you have to get the bloody thing in there. No steel cable and electric winches folks. Then if it gets spooked or mad you've got a pretty good chance of it sending the ship right to the bottom. The logistics of transporting an elephant in wooden ships with fairly shallow draughts (keep in mind ancient Mediterranean vessels rarely lost sight of the shore unless they absolutely had to) are enormously more complex than those of carrying horses.

Well even if you are correct about a ship being physically unable to carry an elephant, which I disagree w/. ITs a moot point anyway. Only a portion of Xerxes army travelled by boat. There was also a large land army.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Persian_invasion.png

[Impactor returns 2.0]

actually, its quite easy to transport an elephant on a ship.

F=MxA

3000x9.81=29430

29430/ (average boat size) 30 = 981 K

anyhows , then u calculate your buoyancy of the boat.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hb ... /dens.html

But either way, it will support that kind of weight, based on a boat of average size.

What I would be more concerned about, is if the woodern frame will break, now, I could go onto calculate the Pressure on woodern timber using:

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/prcal.html

And then we can calcualte the modulous of the wood:

http://www.allmeasures.com/Formulae/sta ... odulus.htm

I dunno, from experience I would assume it will be ok if the floor is built up slightly.

Bah, ive got an exam like this in 5 weeks...

[Blacksword]

I didn't say it was impossible to carry elephants by boat:

The logistics of transporting an elephant in wooden ships with fairly shallow draughts (keep in mind ancient Mediterranean vessels rarely lost sight of the shore unless they absolutely had to) are enormously more complex than those of carrying horses.

I'm also well aware that most of Xerxes army came across a bridge of boats at the Hellespont, which we don't know enough about to say whether it could have supported elephants or not. But as I said earlier only a complete fool would bring elephants to fight in mountainous territory like Greece, or bring them across such a bridge, because they would have to cross any number of mountain ranges and passes like Thermopolae. While these aren't the Alps, mountains in general aren't too friendly to elephants. And if they were caught in narrow passes, they could have been easily killed. Elephants were only of use in wide open territory, which is rather rare in Greece.

[Obfleur]

I am loving this thread.

[wideload]

I didn't say it was impossible to carry elephants by boat:

The logistics of transporting an elephant in wooden ships with fairly shallow draughts (keep in mind ancient Mediterranean vessels rarely lost sight of the shore unless they absolutely had to) are enormously more complex than those of carrying horses.

I'm also well aware that most of Xerxes army came across a bridge of boats at the Hellespont, which we don't know enough about to say whether it could have supported elephants or not. But as I said earlier only a complete fool would bring elephants to fight in mountainous territory like Greece, or bring them across such a bridge, because they would have to cross any number of mountain ranges and passes like Thermopolae. While these aren't the Alps, mountains in general aren't too friendly to elephants. And if they were caught in narrow passes, they could have been easily killed. Elephants were only of use in wide open territory, which is rather rare in Greece.

Listen I'm not saying they brought thousands of elephants. Just a few to break enemy lines.

As for Greece not being a place for elephants, the Greeks definately used them in Greece after they saw how effectvie they were in India.
http://fanaticus.org/DBA/battles/asculum.html

There does, however, appear to be no evidence that elephants were at this battle. I just think it's possible. Or at least a lot more possible than other liberties taken in this movie..... noone has got back to me on the smoking goats yet?

[spiderfrommars]

noone has got back to me on the smoking goats yet?

You could fit loads of 'em on a boat.

[Obfleur]

First Snakes on a plane, now Goats on a boat.

[Blacksword]

Listen I'm not saying they brought thousands of elephants. Just a few to break enemy lines.

As for Greece not being a place for elephants, the Greeks definately used them in Greece after they saw how effectvie they were in India.
http://fanaticus.org/DBA/battles/asculum.html

There does, however, appear to be no evidence that elephants were at this battle. I just think it's possible. Or at least a lot more possible than other liberties taken in this movie..... noone has got back to me on the smoking goats yet?

I haven't had time to go see 300 yet, so I know nothing about smoking goats.

But I would like to point out that the battle of Asculum was in Italy, not Greece, if you'd read your own article you would have noticed that. The Greek colonies in the south of Italy were starting to panic as the Romans continued to move south, so they hired Pyrrhus to lead their armies against Rome. They may have been Greek city-states but they were most definitely in Italy, which has a lot more open room in it. A few battles involving elephants occurred in Macedon to the north of Greece during the Hellenistic era (after Alexander) - where there is open territory - but to my knowledge no battles involving elephants occurred in Greece proper.

Elephants became popular throughout the Mediterranean after Alexander due to their popularity among Eastern powers. The Carthaginians had them, because they had access to the now extinct North African forest elephant, and were descended from the Phoenicians (whose home territory was Palestine and Syria). The Romans were adept at fighting war elephants, and used them only on rare occasions themselves. Eventually they conquered every state that made use of them, and the last battle using elephants in the West was in 46 BC (where Caesar sent a unit with axes to attack their legs). Thus ended the elephant fad. In the end elephants were only good against cavalry - because their appearance and smell terrified horses - and rigid infantry formations like the Greek phalanx. Alexander's more flexible phalanx and the infinitely flexible Roman legion formations made short work of elephants - they simply let them charge through their lines, then surrounded them and killed them.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

Dude, have you seen a proper war elephant?



axes dont do ****.