Kramer's a racist

[Shanti418]

Well, if you'll do an informal search on the top on the Internet as a whole, you'll find that the validity of the agent's statement is quite dubious currently, and the jury is still out as to whether or not Richards is Jewish.

[Best First]

plus what's his actual point?

"Oh, its ok, he's been racist before"

?

[Professor Smooth]

plus what's his actual point?

"Oh, its ok, he's been racist before"

?

I think it's more like, "He really IS racist! See, this wasn't the first time."

Personally, I don't think he's a racist. But then I don't feel that, after making an ass of yourself for the better part of 30 minutes by disrupting a peformance and the performer himself, you get the short end of the stick when you get insulted for it.

I also don't see why African Americans get so wound up about that word. It's an insulting word and it's usually used as such. There are so many other things that should set people off. Richard could have mentioned that more than half of incarcerated people in the US are black, that violent crime rates are much higher among black people in the US than any other race, or that the only statistic that has a low number is graduation rates. All of those would have been LESS offensive, not been perceived as racist, and been absolutely true. Why, with all the problems facing African Americans, is that word even a big deal?

[Best First]

hmm, i'm really not sure where to start with that one...

ok - i'll start here:

the word is bound up in the subjugation of one ethnic group by another - to suggest that its not a big deal is fairly absurd.

Secondly your equation with being black and having problems is simplistic to the point of racism in itself - presenting those stats as you have could be considered racist - the key factors in what you ar edescribing aren't down to pigmentation, but a far moe complex interaction of social standing, culture and race relations.

Finally

problem a) doesn't go away just because problem b) exits. For example if i call you a F**kwit you aren't neccessarily going to be less insulted just because someone stole your car yesterday - its an empty arguement.

[Metal Vendetta]

Kramer apologises, or something...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3l-gRHjUNk

[Professor Smooth]

if i call you a F**kwit you aren't neccessarily going to be less insulted just because someone stole your car yesterday - its an empty arguement.

I'd be inclined to disagree. I'm one of those "meh, I've been through worse" type people. After I crashed my car into that drug dealer, I was pretty "meh" on other little things for a few weeks.

You're entirely right about the problems facing african americans being social and not racial. It's not because they're black that their state (by and large, and this refers only to those living in the US) is what it is. However, going by that standard, is there really much of a different between discriminating against blacks and discriminating against other social groups? Chavs, for example? Rednecks?

[Brendocon]

The chav and redneck stereotypes pertain to more to their behaviour than to race. Anybody can behave like a chav... but is it possible to "behave like a black"? It relies on the premise that everybody black acts the same way.

Okay, you're doing a stand-up routine. Somebody is heckling you. You tell them to shut up. You can do so by dismissing them as stupid, rude, having-nothing-better-to-do, or any number of things.

But, rather than dismiss them in such a manner, he calls him a nigger and pretty much leaves it implied.

To take it off in a slightly different direction - if somebody wants to dismiss me a rude, sarcastic prick, then they've got me pretty much bang to rights. However certain people just dismiss me as ginger and leave it at that.

But yeah, that's why "with all the problems facing African Americans", that word is even a big deal - because it's used to carry the implication of what's actually meant. Rather than "you're a bit of a tit", he said "you're a nigger". The implicit meaning being "you're not worth a well constructed argument - the fact that you're black should be enough to make you be quiet".

[Best First]

New improved Brend - for all your posting needs.

concurrance.

[Professor Smooth]

The chav and redneck stereotypes pertain to more to their behaviour than to race. Anybody can behave like a chav... but is it possible to "behave like a black"? It relies on the premise that everybody black acts the same way.

There's a definate difference between "behaving like a black" and "behaving like a..."

[Brendocon]

Which was my point.

You asked what the difference between discriminating between chavs and blacks was. The difference is that, working solely off those terms, one refers to a social group united by behaviour, the other refers to a group united by skin pigmentation.

[Professor Smooth]

Actually, I believe I asked what the difference between calling someone a "chav" and calling someone a "n*****" was. I would assume that not all Europeans are chavs, just as all black people are not "N*****s."

Is this where I'm supposed to say something like, "Hey, I have a lot of black friends" or something to that effect? That's usually what people do when they say something like this, right?

[Best First]

Actually, I believe I asked what the difference between calling someone a "chav" and calling someone a "n*****" was. I would assume that not all Europeans are chavs, just as all black people are not "N*****s."

the point is the term is used by some for all black people - its used as a racist catch all.

and based on that i believe Brend has already answered your question.

[Professor Smooth]

In all honesty, there's next to zero chance that I'm going to convince anyone that using that word does not make the user a racist, is there?

[Best First]

there's racial intent in the slur - what that exact persons opinions are is less easy to discren and too general a sweep to make.

Using in in such an overt manner definitely doesn't tend towards thinking otherwise though.

Certainly, the question 'why is this word such a big deal' is, bluntly, a question no one with a few brain cells to rub together should need to ask.

[sprunkner]

We had a big discussion in college over the playwright August Wilson, who defined himself as a "race man." He wrote plays starring black people, about black people, and he wanted black theatres in black neighborhoods to put them on. A lot of people defined a "race man" as just a racist, especially once he talked about how much he was influenced by Malcolm X. I wasn't so sure he was, since he was illuminating a particular subculture, and his plays weren't really militant.

This has little to do with the topic, but I think it's interesting.

[Metal Vendetta]

Using the word nigger doesn't automatically make someone a racist.

I occasionally use the work nigger, but only under specific circumstances.

As I am nominally "white" (I have very remote black ancestry but not enough to make me "black") I only ever say it to "white" people - my best friend Matt, for example, has a Pakistani grandfather, though his level of skin pigment is about the same as mine. Since we grew up together listening to hip-hop, we use the word nigger as a term of endearment and affiliation - "What's up nigger?" "You're my nigger, bro!" etc. etc. There are a few other friends with whom I have a similar sort of relationship, all, of course, nominally "white". I've also known "black" guys who've called me nigger in a similar way, and though I'm wary of responding in kind, on a couple of occasions we've had a close enough relationship for both of us to know it's not an issue of racism.

A couple of weeks ago, I met a a "white" guy in the pub who, in front of our mutual "black" friends, was all "What's up nigger, how's it going?" Now one of our friends was cool with it but the other one looked uncomfortable, so I explained that it was a camaraderie between two white guys and that there was no racism intended. He said he understood, but he wasn't comfortable with the word and it wasn't one that he would use himself. However the four of us carried on drinking as normal and the issue hasn't been raised since.

So yeah, I think it's possible to use the word nigger in a non-racist way, in the same way that I might refer to one of my close friends as a terrible c*nt, or a dirty m*therf*cker. The intention is a shared joke between friends rather than to put down or insult the other person.

This is not what Kramer did.

[Best First]

there are certainly shades of grey - punnage intended, some of which don't sit massively well with me.

for example in new york i saw a massive eadvert for Jdate - a jewish dating service, but i can't help but think if i set up White date (not that i'm inclined to) i'd cause a bit of bother, and i think probably rightly so.

just saw Rob's post - agree with all that.

[Optimus Prime Rib]

The best part of it all was still the guy retorting with "That was completely uncalled for you cracker ass white boy"

And I think it is entirely and completely unacceptable for Black people in the US to be allowed to call one another nigger (and no I do not mean in a 'youre my nigger' kind of way. but in an entirely offensive matter),butwhite people can not without being branded racist. I have seen the race card played way too much as of late.


You dont get to have a 'do as I say, not as I do' manner here. The simple 'cracker ass white boy' thing demonstrated one thing to me: that guy could dish it but not take it. Im not saying Richard was correct. Far from it. But he did kick 'politically correct' right in the balls. I kind of commend him for that. Dave Chappelle did it every single day on his show. Pretty much saying EXACTLY the same thing Richard did, but he did it with a laughtrack, and was black. Carlos Mencia does the same ****, but hes Hispanic.

This is exctly why there arent that many white male comedians anymore, aside from redneck assholery. You have to be able to either say 'I am X-american so I have been oppressed and can make fun of all other races' OR if you ARE caucasion, you have to act like youve been lobotomized with a chainsaw and utter stupid catchphrases that only people too smashed on Natural Lite find funny as they switch ba and forth between Comedy Central and NASCAR. White female comedians can ONLY make racial jokes as long as it involves them getting sodomized by whatever race they are referring to.

Now I have to agree with BF that if he were to make WhiteDate it would cause no end of racial problems, but mainly because the black guys here in the states would have that many less white girls to pump up the butt. When caucasion males create any kind of segregation, it is racism. When anyone else does, it is simply 'Affirmative Action'.

[The Last Autobot]

I guess its:

1) A quantity thing. Amount of White guys against black guys

2) A history consequence. How many white guys have been segregated, or put into different buses, not allowed to get somwhere or things like that? And not because you believed in someone (or not) but because you were born that way.

[Optimus Prime Rib]

I guess its:

1) A quantity thing. Amount of White guys against black guys

2) A history consequence. How many white guys have been segregated, or put into different buses, not allowed to get somwhere or things like that? And not because you believed in someone (or not) but because you were born that way.

This is entirely invalid in todays society. I get turned down for jobs and promotions entirely due to the fact that I am white. And the worst part is, I get told that to my face. "Sorry Joey, we have to hire Bob because hes Native Uzbekestanian- American and youre just plain ol American."

Stop bringing up the past. Youre not getting your 40 acres and a mule. Get off your ass and work for what you want. And let the best person get the job on merit and not on the threat of an ACLU lawsuit.

[The Last Autobot]

I guess its:

1) A quantity thing. Amount of White guys against black guys

2) A history consequence. How many white guys have been segregated, or put into different buses, not allowed to get somwhere or things like that? And not because you believed in someone (or not) but because you were born that way.

This is entirely invalid in todays society. I get turned down for jobs and promotions entirely due to the fact that I am white. And the worst part is, I get told that to my face. "Sorry Joey, we have to hire Bob because hes Native Uzbekestanian- American and youre just plain ol American."

Stop bringing up the past. Youre not getting your 40 acres and a mule. Get off your ass and work for what you want. And let the best person get the job on merit and not on the threat of an ACLU lawsuit.

Thats sad, but doesnt change a bit that there are a lot of issues involving discrimination who in turn make these "arrangements" youve sufferred.

[Shanti418]

You dont get to have a 'do as I say, not as I do' manner here. The simple 'cracker ass white boy' thing demonstrated one thing to me: that guy could dish it but not take it. Im not saying Richard was correct. Far from it. But he did kick 'politically correct' right in the balls. I kind of commend him for that. Dave Chappelle did it every single day on his show. Pretty much saying EXACTLY the same thing Richard did, but he did it with a laughtrack, and was black. Carlos Mencia does the same ****, but hes Hispanic.

See, cracker ass white boy is an insult. Just an insult. Saying, "You're a n. That's all you are is an n. You're lucky you're not hanging by a tree, you n," is different. Just using n is not just an insult, it's a reference to a system of discrimination and racism which used to be encapsulated in slavery, but even then, still exists today. Racism is not dead, oppression is not dead, so therefore when the privledged (white) people make fun of the oppressed, there IS a subtext. I mean, c'mon, black people were slaves for hundreds of years and that experince still affects them socially, psychologically, and economically.

Your argument is like saying "I tell my black friend that I want to trick him while he's in the shower by having the shower head spit out poisonous gas instead of water, and he's cool with it, so why does my Jewish friend get so out of shape? Geez, he needs to lighten up."

The whole reason Chappelle QUIT his show is because he was becoming incredibly ambivalent ABOUT presenting racial stereotypes and casual use of the n word to impressionable young people who had heralded him as a God. White teenagers were coming up to him, using the n word, and he realized that perhaps he had started something the interpretation of which he was no longer in control of.

Mencia has no shame. I mean, yeah, it's cool, yay, we're making fun of races, I make fun of everyone, so it's cool, but seriously: I GET IT that all Asians are smart. I GET IT that black people carry guns. I GET IT that Mexicans are afriad of immigration and are lazy. I mean, c'mon, how many times can you package the same material?

This is exctly why there arent that many white male comedians anymore, aside from redneck assholery. You have to be able to either say 'I am X-american so I have been oppressed and can make fun of all other races' OR if you ARE caucasion, you have to act like youve been lobotomized with a chainsaw and utter stupid catchphrases that only people too smashed on Natural Lite find funny as they switch ba and forth between Comedy Central and NASCAR. White female comedians can ONLY make racial jokes as long as it involves them getting sodomized by whatever race they are referring to.

There are PLENTY of white male comedians who don't have their entire act rely on redneck assholery. I would suspect though, that due to the success of things like the aforementioned Chappelle's/Mencia shows, that's what people think sell.
Another point: White people have lots more options when it comes to careers. They can climb a buisness career ladder, they can go get a job with a relative, etc. Perhaps you're right, and we in America can add "comedian" to acceptable ways for poor black people to earn money, right up there with "athelete". God forbid we try and create job growth or improve education in the inner cities.
Lisa Lamponelli makes jokes about getting sodomized with huge black cocks. It's acceptable because it's poking fun at social mores and social taboos. In a way that Michael Richards did not do. If you'll notice in the act and the apology, he says he TRIED to do this very thing, by going over the top and making it to where HE was the joke. But he failed.

Now I have to agree with BF that if he were to make WhiteDate it would cause no end of racial problems, but mainly because the black guys here in the states would have that many less white girls to pump up the butt. When caucasion males create any kind of segregation, it is racism. When anyone else does, it is simply 'Affirmative Action'.

True, making whitedate would be the cause of much racial guffawing. But the point is, it wouldn't work because MOST PEOPLE ARE WHITE. Nonwithstanding the incoming Hispanic majority. Furthermore, a lot of minorities are impoversihed, so a well educated black woman/man might have to do a little searching to find someone.
See, if I want to date a redhead, yes, perhaps I should go to a dating site. If I want to date a brown eyed girl, I should go downtown and look around.






Now let me just get this out here: Irregardless of all that, I FEEL you, Joey. And to some extent, yes, class matter more than race in some areas. I don't doubt that you're been turned down for jobs because you're white.

But you have to understand, it's still true that racism is an institutionalized system. Don't think of it as black disadvantage, think of white privledge. No one stares at you when you walk into a conveniance store. No one pulls you over for no reason. There's no glass ceiling over your corporate advancement (unless you're a token). A bunch of black guys don't leer at you when you make a pass at a black girl. If you were to go somewhere in clothes that were comfortable to you, no one would assume you're a "gangster"

The best person doesn't get the best job based on merit. You know that already. A lot of times, it's who you know, whether of not you have any kind of degrees, etc. If we lived in a complete meritocracy, that would be cool, but we don't.



Please, feel free to discuss and call me a rat bastard. My points are rather rushed, as I'm taking Criminology notes simultaneously, but I had to jump on this topic at some point.

[Best First]

i'd just like to state that i was saying i'm not entirely comfortbale with the concept of jdate - not that i thought white date would be a good idea.

i think its an example of something that goes beyond aiming for equality, which comprises most of what shanti discusses, and is actively devisive, its drawing lines, not removing them.

But that's not to, well, justify some of the follow on comments that were made, which i can't agree with.

Not to mention the best comedian of the last 20 years (if not ever) was white as hell.

[Shanti418]

Not to mention the best comedian of the last 20 years (if not ever) was white as hell.

See? I KNEW Seinfeld was funny! j/k

[Professor Smooth]

Not to mention the best comedian of the last 20 years (if not ever) was white as hell.

Whether you're talking about Bill or George, both of 'em used that word in their acts.

Jdate, eh? I remember seeing flyers like that last time I was in NYC. I've also seen ones for Christian Date, Catholic Date, and (oddly enough) Muslim Date. All of these pretty segregated. And all of them religious... huh.

[Shanti418]

Bill or George? Hmm, I would be surprised if BF was thinking of either of those, although clearly great choices.

Religions happen to be a place where human civilization has historically placed a lot of gender role rules, marriage traditions, and lifestyle impositions, so to me, it's not all that surprising that people think intrafaith dating would be easier.

For example, I'm willing to bet a small sum of fish bones that for you Smooth, it would be highly advantageous to date from a pool of people who didn't subscribe to religion. Say Atheist Date.

For me, I hate consumerism and materialism *hides the comics*, I don't like capitalism, I don't like private ownership of production in some industries. Let me try Commie Date. Global Warming is bad. How about some Eco Date?



Oooooh.....Trans Date. (no tranny jokes) A bunch of guys showing pictures of their packages to each other. Most of them MISB.

[Professor Smooth]

For example, I'm willing to bet a small sum of fish bones that for you Smooth, it would be highly advantageous to date from a pool of people who didn't subscribe to religion. Say Atheist Date.

You'd be wrong, but keep your fish bones (up to the gills in 'em here in Japan). My longtime girlfriend is Muslim. Before that, I dated Christians, Pagans, etc.

[Optimus Prime Rib]

You can kiss my Irish American ass if you think that I have more opportunity simply due to the color of my skin. You know what its gotten me?
Its gotten me told that I make too much money to get on food assistance for my kids, while I see some asshole roll up in a bmw in brand new clothes talking on a blackberry get handed a freaking 1000 bucks worth of food stamps right in front of me.

Its gotten me told that no matter how hard I work, I will ALWAYS be second best to a lazy ass I work with. Because quite honestly, my boss is black and I wouldnt call him 'racist' I would call him 'racially motivated'.Hes made it a point to use his authority to get black people ahead in our business. Which is all fine and good, but he gets in the way f MY opportunity to make a better life for my children. I only stick around because I cant afford to quit. And he will die or retire soon.

And you say I can walk into any place I WANT without getting leered at or followed around? Shows you know [composite word including 'f*ck'] all about me and my life and the city I live in.

Anyone that has a problem with me being white because I have somehow oppressed them or dont understand them can kiss my dick. You werent there when I got beat down for burying my best friends little brother (who happened to be black) and you werent there when I was getting strange looks from any black person that didnt know me as I sat bawling at that same friends funeral when he died in a car accident a few years later.

There are assholes of every creed, race, nationality, and sexual orientation. And I say they can all toss my salad. I go out of my way to be nice to people. All I ask is a little niceness back.

And btw I didnt say that there were NO good white comedians. I said there were few.