David Brin Takes The Piss Out of Star Wars

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 1:44 pm

I think the idea of 'elite' class types can be applied to many movies - from SW to LotR, spiderman and the x-men etc...

Post by **Best First** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 1:49 pm

dude - the whole point of LOTR is the elites ****ing off and handing responsibility to the people, its the total opposite.

Spidey - maybe in some aspects, but not the power structure sense.

Also, if something is a feature of one thing, pointing out its also a feature of other things doesn't change the fact its a feature of the first.

Its kind of like saying "Well, Stalin killed people to" in a discussion as to why Hitler is a cheesy bell monkey.

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 1:53 pm

Hmm not sure about that analogy - Do the Jedis (the elite) in SW not reliquish power from the Empire, much like frodo and Co (the elite) in LotR; so that the republic, or the ppl of middle earth can take responsiblity of thier respective, land/galaxy again?

If anything, Luke doesnt rule the Galaxy in SW at the end of the Return of the Jedi but Aragorn does rule his land, so...

Post by **spiderfrommars** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 2:42 pm

Its cool the way he says he likes Han.

Whats not to like?

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 3:06 pm

Bar lightsabers, which are cool - Han is the coolest hunk of junk in the galaxy.

Shanti418 · Post by **Shanti418** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 7:16 pm

Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:Hmm not sure about that analogy - Do the Jedis (the elite) in SW not reliquish power from the Empire, much like frodo and Co (the elite) in LotR; so that the republic, or the ppl of middle earth can take responsiblity of thier respective, land/galaxy again?

If anything, Luke doesnt rule the Galaxy in SW at the end of the Return of the Jedi but Aragorn does rule his land, so...

See, to me it's:

SW: Jedia are elite. Not everyone can be a Jedi. Some people are born more in tune with the Force than others. Without these bad asses, we can't beat the Empire. They do the heavy lifting.

LotR: Frodo is NOT an elite. You could say the rest of the Fellowship is in their own way, but the whole point was that a lowly hobbitt had the fate the middle earth in his hands. He and Sam were just joe schmoe, and that's why they could carry the ring discreetly. In the end, he found strength in himself and finished the job.

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 7:29 pm

hmm - what if, at a stretch... i say that luke was a lowly farmer but had the strength to use the force and still learn the Jedi ways when he was 'too old to begin the trainning' , and that Frodo was a lowly hobbit but had the strength to carry the rin, unlike Sam for example...

stretch!

But surely old aragorn is pretty elite?

Shanti418 · Post by **Shanti418** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 7:47 pm

Luke wasn't a farmer, he was always the son of Anakin Skywalker and Padme.

Sam WAS Frodo's strength, when Frodo couldn't carry on certain times.

Aragon, Legolas, AND Gimli were all well known people amongst their races.

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 7:56 pm

Gandalf, Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli are pretty elite. But couldnt have completed thier quest without the help of Frodo.

Could Luke have completed his quest without the Help of Han & the droids?

Post by **Best First** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 8:01 pm

Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:Gandalf, Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli are pretty elite.

yes, but none of them have a long term goal of setting up an enelected cadre of warrior wizards with glowing blades who take it upon themselves to intervene in everyone's affairs as they see fit.

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 8:45 pm

Best First wrote:
Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:Gandalf, Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli are pretty elite.
yes, but none of them have a long term goal of setting up an enelected cadre of warrior wizards with glowing blades who take it upon themselves to intervene in everyone's affairs as they see fit.

Is that lukes goal? - his goal is to topple the Empire, or maybe just his dad, I dont think its his goal to rule the galaxy.

Aragorn wants the forces of Mordor toppled (like the empire) - at some point he decides to become king. I havent read the Silmarillion but Gandalfs wizard race intervene in lots of human affairs across the history of the middle earth.
Gandalf then gos some way to pushing Aragorn into power. or convincing him of his role in mankind.

I dont think the Jedi would have a council or wish to get involved with diplomatic arguments were it not for the existance of the Sith.

Theres deff some sort parallel between the WIzards of Middle Earth and the Jedi - they cannot fight entire wars but they can manipulate. ppl seem to trust them and know of them. Obviously they both have powers and ablities for thier respective stories.

Talking of elites, dont many super characters, superman for example, intervene where they see fit? saving the worlds etc... making choices that can effect millions of ppl based upon thier own belifes?

I understand where this guy is comming from with his essay but i think u can draw up similar stories across anything where ppl are trying to save the world, I could go as far back to the stories of King Arthur, they are quite similar to SW.

I think alot of these stories draw on a basic human desire to belive in these saviours battaling for us, the meek, against the forces of evil, be it Jedi, lex Luthor, Sauron or Mordred. Whilst I respect what this guy has written is probably true in some respects im not sure how seriously it should be taken.

I expect most emotions, for most ppl, never go beyond Good beat evil, we can all go home and sleep tight in the knowledge that Good will always triumph over evil.

Its a comforting faith outside of religion...

The Last Autobot · Post by **The Last Autobot** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 8:56 pm

Its a comforting faith outside of religion...

...and equally irrational?

dont think the Jedi would have a council or wish to get involved with diplomatic arguments were it not for the existance of the Sith.

Werent the sith believed to be destroyed like 1 thousand of years ago? The council existed all that time and got their noses wherever they pleased.

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 9:15 pm

The Last Autobot wrote: ...and equally irrational?

Completely, but ppl have always enjoyed stories that make real life seem better.

Werent the sith believed to be destroyed like 1 thousand of years ago? The council existed all that time and got their noses wherever they pleased.

Im not sure on the time frame to be honest but there must always be 1 sith left?

Yes the Jedi can do as they please but like superman, are thier intentions not always for the good of all?

The Last Autobot · Post by **The Last Autobot** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 9:36 pm

Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:
Im not sure on the time frame to be honest but there must always be 1 sith left?

Yes the Jedi can do as they please but like superman, are thier intentions not always for the good of all?

Its always a good politic to have an external enemy (real or not) to reaffirm your existance

Maybe If they remained doing their forcy things and in their business and not be everywhere playing heroes they could have detected the ones under their own noses who would destroy them (Palpatine and Anakin).

All this sounds familiar...

Post by **Best First** » Thu Nov 09, 2006 10:57 am

looks like we finally found Impy's religion...

Legion · Post by **Legion** » Thu Nov 09, 2006 11:14 am

Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:
Werent the sith believed to be destroyed like 1 thousand of years ago? The council existed all that time and got their noses wherever they pleased.
Im not sure on the time frame to be honest but there must always be 1 sith left?

Yes, the last great Sith war was 1000 years before TPM. It was after this that the apparent lone Sith survivor Bane implemented the Sith "rule of two". From this point on there was no great Sith army, like there had been before hand... for some reason the Jedi never seemed to pick up on this. Over confidence, arrogance maybe... whichever, it led to their eventual downfall. Yoda says something about the darkside masking the force, bollocks, it's just that the Jedi had no real idea what the sith were anymore, even Quigon thinks that Maul has had 'Jedi teachings'... when he hasn't, he's had Sith training only.

Best First wrote: looks like we finally found Impy's religion...

looks like you found the right topic...

Post by **spiderfrommars** » Thu Nov 09, 2006 11:18 am

Anyone else put Jedi on their census forms?

The 2001 UK census also included responses from 390,127 people (or 0.7% of the population of England and Wales) who gave their religion as the parody religion, Jedi.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_i ... ed_Kingdom

I think we were led to believe at the time that if enough people did so it would make it an official religion. Oh well.

Post by **Best First** » Thu Nov 09, 2006 11:19 am

*cough* this isn't the tropic you are looking for. *cough*

Is it not that there aren't only ever 2 sith, but always that there are pairs of Sith?

Legion · Post by **Legion** » Thu Nov 09, 2006 11:31 am

apparently not no. There are 'now' (since the last sith war, a thousand years previous), only ever two Sith. The master and the apprentice in the entire galaxy!
(interestingly this bit Yoda got right - but the council thought that the sith had all been wiped out in the last war, before this rule was introduced... so either Yoda had inside information or the council was lying... )

KingMob · Post by **KingMob** » Thu Nov 09, 2006 11:36 am

Yeah, if video games count, the mack daddy Sith Lords from KotOR 2 were a triumverate, at least for a while.

They didn't seem to have a version of the padawan learner thing either in those games; their Korriban Academy seemed more like a conventional tutor > multiple student group thing, but with just a tad more back-stabbing.

That Yoda was a sneaky one. Puts you right off him, the more you dig into this stuff.

Post by **Best First** » Thu Nov 09, 2006 11:42 am

see, once again i think this is something that makes rod all sense.

what happens if someone else who is force adept decides he wants to be all bad guy?

Is he not allowed?

do they kill him (or he has to kill one of them)?

Not exactly doing themselves and favours are they?

The Sith’s goals are also pretty dubious/inconsistant – aren’t they supposed to be a force for chaos? If so setting up a dictatorship seems an odd move, as does the fact that they clearly train in skills similar to the Jedi, which implies a form of discipline, as does saying, no there’s only 2 of us, you want 3, don’t be crazy, its against the rules.

As with a lot of other stuff, the idea of Sith per say is a lot muddier and ill conceived than just the idea of Jedi gone bad, which was more the vibe of the first trilogy.

Recokns i.

Legion · Post by **Legion** » Thu Nov 09, 2006 11:46 am

might i suggest this for light reading:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sith

as i'm at work and don't have the time to fully explain the Sith politic

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Thu Nov 09, 2006 12:10 pm

Best First wrote:looks like we finally found Impy's religion...

But Jedi ARE real... move along...

Post by **Best First** » Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:13 pm

Legion wrote:might i suggest this for light reading:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sith

as i'm at work and don't have the time to fully explain the Sith politic

way ahead of you...

sprunkner · Post by **sprunkner** » Thu Nov 09, 2006 11:03 pm

Legion wrote:o either Yoda had inside information or the council was lying...

Yoda is totally the villian of it all. I'm surprised he didn't make sweet little green love to the Emporer. That would have given Episode III the kick it needed to pull in some serious cash.

Impactor Returns wrote:I expect most emotions, for most ppl, never go beyond Good beat evil, we can all go home and sleep tight in the knowledge that Good will always triumph over evil.

Its a comforting faith outside of religion...

The problem I've been having with my lifelong religion is that everyone else sees things in terms of absolutes. I consider myself to be an unorthodox, perhaps a reformed, Mormon. It's an important part of my heritage, but I don't swallow the doctrine. Everyone inside the Church, though, considers me to be "apostate." The notion of unorthodox offends them. As the Church's leader keeps saying, "It is either true or it isn't." You are either with us or against us.

This issue stabs deeply at this whole board. We spend our time talking about and reading stories based on the ones we believed in as children; these stories that appeal to all ages and portray good and evil as absolutes. But that's not true, and that's not an adult point of view. Entertainment made for adults-- like Serenifly and BSG-- does not deal in absolute good or absolute evil, it deals in human failings and nobility.

I don't see how anyone can believe, at any level, in an absolute good or absolute evil and divorce themselves from religion. They can disagree with current religions-- but they can only disagree on the premise of saying, "You got it wrong; good means this which essentially amounts to starting another religion, to starting another group that bases their thought on absolutes. So organized religion is bad because none of the religions recognize that they are evil? That doesn't work. That means we're still waiting on the "true" religion to come along and defeat the others, and show us the "real" way.

I think children should not be taught to believe in the absolute good and evil that Star Wars and LotR show. Let me tell you, falling to the dark side is much more liberating than it is imprisoning. In a society that celebrates youthfulness and distrusts adulthood, isn't it social poison to revere these kinds of stories the way we do? Aren't we just hastening the infantization of our culture, encouraging people to be whining children who want reliable answers for everything instead of adults who can deal with complex moral issues?

I don't enjoy TF comics the way I did when I was nine. I buy them because they remind me of that time, which means that I'm guilty of most of the things I've addressed in this post. But I can't imagine for an instant that real Autobots and Decepticons exist. In World War II, probably the most clearly defined moral conflict of all time, the Allies were not fighting evil. I think, when one looks at it clearly, they were fighting for adult liberty versus the desire for childhood security. In the chaos of postwar Europe, the people of Germany wanted to have easy answers more than they wanted to have freedom of choice. That's the only thing that resembles a moral absolute-avoid believing in moral absolutes.