Straw 'opposes all Muslim veils'

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Post by Guest » Wed Oct 11, 2006 2:22 pm

Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:I can forgive a tribal practise due to thier education and reasons for doing it.

But many muslims should know better?
Surely, if you generalise the word 'muslims' to 'people who practise this', then the above quote becomes a contradiction?

You can't just single out misogynistic behaviour amongst muslims as being bad, and then forgive other cultures for doing the exact same thing.

Doesn't matter who's doing it. If it's wrong, it's wrong.

You can't say "You're a muslim, therefore that's bad. You're a Tutsi, therefore, you are forgiven." That's logic that harks back to the days of the early Missionaries whose indoctrinated beliefs told them that if the people they met didn't measure up to their definition of 'civilised', then they should be treated as children, infirm or second-class citizens.

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Post by spiderfrommars » Wed Oct 11, 2006 2:28 pm

There's huge generalisations being spouted on both sides of this argument. Where's some proof?

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Post by Shanti418 » Wed Oct 11, 2006 2:31 pm

I dunno, we've gone so quick from Straw's comments, to veils in the courtroom, to female circumcision......

I have no idea whas goin' on right now [/towelie]
Best First wrote:I thought we could just meander between making well thought out points, being needlessly immature, provocative and generalist, then veer into caring about constructive debate and make a few valid points, act civil for a bit, then lower the tone again, then act offended when we get called on it, then dictate what it is and isn't worth debating, reinterpret a few of my own posts through a less offensive lens, then jaunt down whatever other path our seemingly volatile mood took us in.

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Post by Impactor returns 2.0 » Wed Oct 11, 2006 2:36 pm

I watched a tribe on TV the other week - they removed the girls clit because they felt if they didnt they would have a drought.
Thier tribe was so secluded that the modern world was just a wonder to them, science in regards to the weather etc... ment nothing, tribal practises like a rain dance and clit removal meant everything.

Whilst, by my own western standard, I still think that surgery is 'wrong' I find it hard to condem a race of ppl who really have no idea of what they are doing is wrong. they havent been educated to understand that a rain-dance does [composite word including 'f*ck'] all etc..

Thier are Muslims (and other religions) who live in a society that has educated them, and given them all the reasons they need to understand why mutilation of the female genitals is seen as wrong. Yet they continue to carry out this practise, regardless of this information due to thier interpretation of thier faith.
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Post by Shanti418 » Wed Oct 11, 2006 2:44 pm

OR their culture.


This is the problem:

Western counties looking down at the 3rd World: "Hey, what are you doing there, mutilating your genitals for cultural reasons? Don't you know that's wrong and will not work on the basis of scientific fact? C'mon, why don't you come live in a city, wear some rags, and work in a factory for 35 cents an hour while we privatize your water and make it unaffordable for you!"

*looks behind them, and covers up tattoos, piercings, botox, nose jobs, breat enhancements, colored eye contacts, male circumcision, anal and teeth whiteners, massive obesity*


Uh, yeah! Messing with your body is bad, see? And putting sociocultural pressure on women to look a certain way or do certain (eating disorders) things to themselves to look a certain way? That's SUPER bad! Yeah, that's the ticket!
Best First wrote:I thought we could just meander between making well thought out points, being needlessly immature, provocative and generalist, then veer into caring about constructive debate and make a few valid points, act civil for a bit, then lower the tone again, then act offended when we get called on it, then dictate what it is and isn't worth debating, reinterpret a few of my own posts through a less offensive lens, then jaunt down whatever other path our seemingly volatile mood took us in.

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Post by Impactor returns 2.0 » Wed Oct 11, 2006 3:03 pm

and covers up tattoos, piercings, botox, nose jobs, breat enhancements, colored eye contacts, male circumcision, anal and teeth whiteners, massive obesity
But these body alterations are chosen by the person - they are not forced upon ppl because of reason X,Y,Z.
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Post by The Last Autobot » Wed Oct 11, 2006 3:46 pm

I find a lot of things disturbing in many cultures.

But who will say what is correct and what is not?

Then we all will be like the US? UK? Japan? Which is the best way?

We all live in a framework that dictamines what is normal and acceptable. Who among us will play God?
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Post by Metal Vendetta » Wed Oct 11, 2006 3:53 pm

To me it's all about individual choice.

If I want to get breast enlargements, that's my choice. If I'd had my foreskin cut off by an Imam when I was a baby then I didn't have a say in the matter. If I'm a Muslim woman in a "traditional" family I don't have a choice in wearing a burka, as it's either that or ostracisation.
I would have waited a ******* eternity for this!!!!
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Post by Yaya » Wed Oct 11, 2006 4:04 pm

Metal Vendetta wrote:To me it's all about individual choice.

If I want to get breast enlargements, that's my choice. If I'd had my foreskin cut off by an Imam when I was a baby then I didn't have a say in the matter. If I'm a Muslim woman in a "traditional" family I don't have a choice in wearing a burka, as it's either that or ostracisation.

Last time I checked, the burka isn't grown into the body of a women like the male foreskin. So you still have a choice.

Regarding circumcision, I think medical evidence has shown the hygienic advantages of circumcision. So if we are talking "civilized society", circumcising would be more likely found than not in a more advanced people. Like vaccinations, for example.
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Post by Impactor returns 2.0 » Wed Oct 11, 2006 4:09 pm

thats understandable in the male but as I understand there is no medical reason for it in the female.

And whilst the Burka isnt grown out the women, like MV says, if u dont wear it, you face ostracisation within your family and community.
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Post by Yaya » Wed Oct 11, 2006 5:39 pm

Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:thats understandable in the male but as I understand there is no medical reason for it in the female.

And whilst the Burka isnt grown out the women, like MV says, if u dont wear it, you face ostracisation within your family and community.
Most of the Muslim women I know don't wear hijab, and they are not ostracized.
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Post by Impactor returns 2.0 » Wed Oct 11, 2006 5:40 pm

were talking about ones where thier family and community do wear it tho - going against the flow etc..
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Post by Dead Head » Wed Oct 11, 2006 6:25 pm

Male circumcision is a totally pointless and non-positive procedure in all but the rarest of cases (such as tightness.) Oh, and for men who are too lazy to wash their bits properly.

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Post by Guest » Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:24 pm

Dead Head wrote:Male circumcision is a totally pointless and non-positive procedure in all but the rarest of cases (such as tightness.) Oh, and for men who are too lazy to wash their bits properly.
It's a lot less uncomfortable for both doctor and patient when a catheter has to be used for any lengthy period, or if the patient is very young.

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Post by Dead Head » Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:50 pm

Rebis wrote:It's a lot less uncomfortable for both doctor and patient when a catheter has to be used for any lengthy period, or if the patient is very young.
I can't agree. Anyway, you're describing another quite uncommon situation.

.
The point remains that circumcision is, in the overwhelming bulk of cases, totally unnecessary and stupid.

A primitive outmoded tradition, and a barbaric one especially when performed on infants.

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Post by inflatable dalek » Sat Oct 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Frankly it's Straw who should cover his face, if only to make it less obvious he's really the demon headmaster...
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Post by Shanti418 » Thu Oct 26, 2006 4:14 pm

By ROHAN SULLIVAN, Associated Press Write Thu Oct 26, 8:43 AM
SYDNEY, Australia - A senior Muslim cleric compared women who go without a head scarf to "uncovered meat" left out for scavengers, drawing widespread condemnation and calls Thursday for his resignation.

Sheik Taj Aldin al Hilali denied he was condoning rape when he made the comments in a sermon last month, and apologized to any women he had offended, saying they were free to dress as they wished.

Hilali was quoted in The Australian newspaper Thursday as saying in the sermon: "If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside ... without cover, and the cats come to eat it ... whose fault is it, the cats' or the uncovered meat's?"

"The uncovered meat is the problem. If she was in her room, in her home, in her hijab, no problem would have occurred," he was quoted as saying, referring to the headdress worn by some Muslim women.

Prime Minister John Howard called the remarks "appalling and reprehensible."

"The idea that women are to blame for rapes is preposterous," Howard said.

The comments come during a heated debate in Britain about religious freedom centered around whether Muslim women should wear veils. Similar passions raged when France banned head scarves and other religious symbols in public schools two years ago.

In Australia, there was widespread condemnation Thursday of the cleric's comments from other Muslim leaders, civil libertarians and political leaders.

Australia's Sex Discrimination Commissioner Pru Goward said Hilali's comment was an incitement to rape and that Australia's Muslims should force him to resign.

"This is inciting young men to a violent crime because it is the woman's fault," Goward told television's Nine Network. "It is time the Islamic community did more than say they were horrified. I think it is time he left."

Hilali is the top cleric at Sydney's largest mosque, and is considered the most senior Islamic leader by many Muslims in Australia and New Zealand.

He has in the past served as an adviser to the Australian government on Muslim issues, but triggered a controversy in 2004 for saying in a sermon in Lebanon that the Sept. 11 attacks were "God's work against the oppressors." Hilali said later he did not mean that he supported the attacks, or terrorism.

Relations between Australia's almost 300,000 Muslims and the majority Christian-heritage population are tense following riots last December that often pitted white gangs against youths of Middle Eastern decent.

Howard offended some Muslims recently by singling out some Muslims as extremists who should adopt Australia's Western liberal attitudes to women's rights.

Many Muslims say they are increasingly treated with suspicion since the Sept. 11 and other international terrorist attacks. Waleed Aly, a member of the Islamic Council of Victoria state, said Hilali's comments would result in more antagonism toward Muslims.

"I am expecting a deluge of hate mail," he said. "I am expecting people to get abused in the street and get abused at work."

Hilali said in a statement he was shocked by Thursday's reaction to his sermon.

"The presentation related to religious teachings on modesty and not to go to extremes in enticements, this does not condone rape, I condemn rape," he said.

"Women in our Australian society have the freedom and right to dress as they choose, the duty of man is to avert his glance or walk away," he said
I can understand how he's not condoning rape.

See, here's the thing: This whole dimenson of the issue centers on a common precept of gender stereotypes: That men are subject and slave to their sexual desires, and that women, being inherantly disinterested in sex, should go out of their way to NOT tempt men sexually in any way, hence the "uncovered meat" arguement.

But this idea isn't just relegated to Muslims. When women ARE raped, if they can show she's promiscious (sticks her meat out into a pack of wild dogs often), then the man is a lot less likely to be found guilty. It's why male mass murderers like to kill prostitutes, because no one cares about them, and people will assume they were asking for it in their line of occupation. I mean, it's less than a hundred years ago that modesty was the norm and men/women swam in what look like full body suits compared to today.

Clearly no sect of society has taken the silencing of men's "urges" as far as Muslims have, but I think it's a case of them putting a skeleton on the dining room table, whereas we Westerners like to keep ours in the closets.

And for the record, yes, we men ARE slavish beings, slaves to our urges.
Best First wrote:I thought we could just meander between making well thought out points, being needlessly immature, provocative and generalist, then veer into caring about constructive debate and make a few valid points, act civil for a bit, then lower the tone again, then act offended when we get called on it, then dictate what it is and isn't worth debating, reinterpret a few of my own posts through a less offensive lens, then jaunt down whatever other path our seemingly volatile mood took us in.

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Post by Impactor returns 2.0 » Thu Oct 26, 2006 5:57 pm

Its like minority report - remove all possiblities of commiting a crime first then it cant possibly happen.

It has one purpose only, to controll women.
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Post by The Last Autobot » Thu Oct 26, 2006 6:11 pm

Only one thing.

Even if a prositute is raped. It STILL is a rape. If a girl is raped and she in a trial is found as having a promiscous past it doesnt change a bit the rape incident.

So saying things like that wacko proclaimed is only utter and absolute crap.
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Post by Impactor returns 2.0 » Thu Oct 26, 2006 6:26 pm

Heres a simple Law for everyone to rememeber.


RAPE IS ILLEGAL !!!

There we go, now we dont have to cover women up in case I go mental and start raping them.

that what ****s me off even more, this concept, that as a man, I am powerless to controll my sexual urges - No, im fully capable of that, this isnt the ******* dark ages you know, I dont need religion to tell me whats right and wrong again.
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Post by Metal Vendetta » Thu Oct 26, 2006 6:53 pm

None of my lady friends wear burkas - in fact some of them often wear quite revealling clothes - and I've never raped any of them, not even a little bit. This "all men are rapists" is proto-feminist bollocks and doesn't deserve any more respect than the "by covering them up we are liberating women" argument.
I would have waited a ******* eternity for this!!!!
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Post by Impactor returns 2.0 » Thu Oct 26, 2006 7:08 pm

Metal Vendetta wrote:None of my lady friends wear burkas - in fact some of them often wear quite revealling clothes - and I've never raped any of them, not even a little bit. This "all men are rapists" is proto-feminist bollocks and doesn't deserve any more respect than the "by covering them up we are liberating women" argument.
U dont find that when you see a women u just start raping them all?

But this gos against religious logic! - that humans can think for themselves, that I can be a good person without a rulle book that the world does get along just fine without the need to lick gods butt!
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Post by Best First » Thu Oct 26, 2006 7:40 pm

what gets on my wick about stuff like thsi si when you get a Muslim cleric saying things like "of course women are free to wear what they like and i apologise if i implied otherwise", when, as it is - he actually believes and derires that it were otherwise.

Even if he didn't mean to imply that "hey, RApe is teh C00l3st!" (although his language is pretty striking) who is he helping by claiming that his beliefs are other than what they are?
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Post by Metal Vendetta » Thu Oct 26, 2006 8:16 pm

Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:U dont find that when you see a women u just start raping them all?
Actually this describes my average day:

Wake up, go to kitchen and make tea. Put toast in toaster. My housemate comes in to get coffee. She's wearing pyjamas. Rape. Go upstairs, wait for shower. My other housemate comes out of the bathroom wearing a towel. Rape. Take a shower, get dressed. Go to corner shop to buy a packet of fags and a paper. Fortunately this cornershop is run by a muslim family, and there are no women on the shop staff, just men. However, as I'm handing over the money a 16 year-old girl comes in wearing a short skirt so I rape her and so do the shop staff.

I make my way to the tube (raping an old lady and a lollipop woman) and get down to the platform. There's a lady wearing a very fetching trouser-suit, a pretty young punkette going home from last night and a German tourist with a backpack and those cute glasses they all wear. I nearly miss my train while raping them.

Once I'm inside the carriage, it's pretty much a rape-fest, with men raping women everywhere, regardless of class or social taboo. Fortunately there's a girl wearing a burka who stands unmolested in the corner, as the thin covering of cotton over her face has somehow confused the sexual urges of these slavering, rape-happy man-beasts who ignore her and rape the women who were foolish enough to venture out with their faces and ankles showing.
I would have waited a ******* eternity for this!!!!
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Post by The Last Autobot » Thu Oct 26, 2006 9:14 pm

On the other hand I find women all covered up very attractive so I rape every girl dressed conservatively.

I win over your burkas!
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Post by Impactor returns 2.0 » Thu Oct 26, 2006 9:16 pm

If I lived in a place where I never got see women because they were covered up in case I rape them, and then i moved to a western country where women can actually bhave how they want, like men do, im not surprised that some men cannot controll thier urges.

edit - just to be a **** - maybe muslim are rapists, and thus need thier women covered up.

Islam breeds rapists.
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Post by Shanti418 » Thu Oct 26, 2006 9:36 pm

I dunno, apparently you guys give guys a lot more credit than I do.

I'm not saying that the only thing stopping rape is veils.

What I AM saying is that the idea of men being less able to control their sexual urges, or being more apt to express them in violent ways, is something that's acultural.

What I AM saying is that if magically, there was no penalty for non consensual sex, then yes, guys would be trying to rape girls in the streets. Not saying you would, not saying I would, but saying that we ALL know guys who would.

And TLA, there are plenty of rape trials here in the US where a woman's sexual history is brought up by the defense. See Kobe Bryant.
Impactor returns 2.0 wrote: that what ****s me off even more, this concept, that as a man, I am powerless to controll my sexual urges - No, im fully capable of that, this isnt the ******* dark ages you know, I dont need religion to tell me whats right and wrong again.
But apparently you DO need the law. :eek:
Best First wrote:I thought we could just meander between making well thought out points, being needlessly immature, provocative and generalist, then veer into caring about constructive debate and make a few valid points, act civil for a bit, then lower the tone again, then act offended when we get called on it, then dictate what it is and isn't worth debating, reinterpret a few of my own posts through a less offensive lens, then jaunt down whatever other path our seemingly volatile mood took us in.

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Post by spiderfrommars » Thu Oct 26, 2006 9:43 pm

Ah, so men are cats, women are meat.

I'll try and remember that... seems simple enough...

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Post by The Last Autobot » Thu Oct 26, 2006 9:44 pm

Shanti418 wrote:

And TLA, there are plenty of rape trials here in the US where a woman's sexual history is brought up by the defense. See Kobe Bryant.
I know sometimes is that way Shanti, but that doesnt mean is right. Does it?
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Post by Impactor returns 2.0 » Thu Oct 26, 2006 9:59 pm

Shanti418 wrote:
But apparently you DO need the law. :eek:
For sure, or a veil.

Laws are to protect the ppl who have has crimes commited against them - The islamic veil way is to pre-cog minority report style.
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