Christianity vs. Islam

[Best First]

it would be more interesting to see you address Sprunker's points don't you think?

[Impactor returns 2.0]

Martyr defenders, surely.

that what they think they are.

Really? They are.

If Islam thinks that violence in any way is a mean to an end, then its a ******* **** religion to follow.

Radical? Plenty of 'ordinary' Muslims and Christians took the sword up in order to "defend" their faith.

Radical by todays standards.

[Shanti418]

it would be more interesting to see you address Sprunker's points don't you think?

Quite so. Too bad thoughtful statements and moderate, thought out opinions reflecting nuanced opinions and actions are decidedly unsexy.

[Best First]

it would be more interesting to see you address Sprunker's points don't you think?

Quite so. Too bad thoughtful statements and moderate, thought out opinions reflecting nuanced opinions and actions are decidedly unsexy.

What i find interesting is that i think anyone who makes such crass general satements on a regular basis obvioulsy has no real intention of doing anything positive about the problems they percieve or are just so daft that they don't see how counter productive gconstant lib invenctive is.

although equally i apprecaite it can be a reflection of frustraon at something you see as both ridiculous and blatently obvious - but that's only really an excuse if its a sporadic outburst i would say.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

Is this aimed at me or DH?

[Best First]

i was more focussing on DH's comments however in all honesty i would say the same could be said of most of your posts on the matter, evn if i understand the POV.

the sole use iof writing thing slike 'religion is evil' and "its obvious" is for you to vent, it doesn't contribute anything useful to any debate, even one with regard to downgrading religion's role in fuelling awful acts because its so simplistic it ha no analyitcal merit and so can be easily dismissed, it also undermines more constructive comments from people who probably have some quite similar ideas, which is evidently counter productive.

that's not to say i am not guilty of it myself sometimes (it is after all a passionate issue and we are after all, all hypocrites) but its usefull to at least acknolwdge that angry and generalist contributions are of no real use, even if it sometimes felt justified at the time of typing, rather than adopt them as a more or less consiatnt approach.

Equally that's not to say when you point out what will seem to be irrefutable flaws or contradictions in rational tones some people will ignore you or missquote you anyway (perhaps understandable again given to acknolwdge such points essentially skewers their world view - i guess this is always going to be the major stumbling block in such discussions) but it strikes me as an approach that we should aspire to and that is at least more likley, if not garunteed, to lead toa more fruitful dialogue.

feel free to quote this back at me when i lose my rag about something next week.

[Yaya]

Statements like "religion is evil" are so simplistic, they really stand out as ridiculous in such a complex discussion.

To those like Dead Head who attack my faith and the ordinary people who follow it, again, I offer you a challenge. Give me reference from the very sources of my faith, the Koran and the Hadith, taking into consideration the context under which such verses were revealed, that Islam is what you say it is. Thus far, you have provided me with Wikipedic-like sources and out-of-context verses from the Koran that sound violent, tenuous citations that have no substance in the face of what I have offered to you.

American history books, CNN, Fox News. I know what they say, I've heard it my whole life. If you want to make your point, make it with something substantial, not something based on the misguided actions of a small percentage of Muslims around the globe.

Learn what Islam is first. Then, if you want to think Islam is restrictive, that's your prerogative. But make that conclusion after you have your facts straight about it. This is what irks me most. You want to hate Islam, go right ahead. But at least know what it is before you hate it.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

There are versus in the Koran tho that are being used by Radical Islamic clerics to turn young men into fanatics, who, in turn, carry out violent acts.

There are good clerics on TV who agree with this, most high ranking clerics in all UK communities work with police now on a regular basis to warn against these extream preachers.

As this is recorgnaised by the Muslim cummunity of Britain then its fair to say that the Koran does contain passages that can be used to manipulate people.

Now, I want to be clear, im not saying that this is the way of Islam, im just pointing out that the Koran does contain certain texts that can be missused.
And, one more thing, Im not saying Christianity is all roses, I know that has just as many texts that can be used for similar methods of violent provocation.

[Kaylee]

everything but particularly- feel free to quote this back at me when i lose my rag about something next week.

it's posts like that which it clear to me why I'm your friend Clear, concise, humble and all true.

Might I propose a group hug? Everyone's invited

[Dead Head]

It's not just the Qu'ran. Look at the utterly violent and aggressive expansionist sabre-wielding by Mohammad and his successors. Of course, the committed Islam apologist would no doubt frame it in some batsh1t crazy "defensive" measure by Mo' and pals. Oh riiiiiiight. There's no wickedness that Mohammad and company did that can't be disingenuously 'explained' away by lifelong obsessed members of the Allah fanclub.

[Shanti418]

everything but particularly- feel free to quote this back at me when i lose my rag about something next week.

it's posts like that which it clear to me why I'm your friend Clear, concise, humble and all true.

Might I propose a group hug? Everyone's invited

Clear? Definitely so.

Concise? Not particularly, but long, verbose sentances are something that I happen to love.

Humble? Uh, next question.

True? Most definitely.

The very definition of an excellent Mod, who wields respect and intelligence to control a board as opposed to power and keystrokes? Mos def.

[Yaya]

Now, I want to be clear, im not saying that this is the way of Islam, im just pointing out that the Koran does contain certain texts that can be missused.

But I agree with that. Certainly, you can use the misinterpretation of the Koranic text to commit evil.

Which is why Muhammad (PBUH) stressed in a Hadith, that anyone who interprets the Koran from his own opinion, he has committed a grave sin, even when he happens to be right. (paraphrasing). This happens all too often today, as many Muslims, through their ignorance, feel that being Muslim gives them some special scholarly ability.

Care is not taken by Muslims to act as the Prophet (PBUH) acted. The Koran by itself cannot provide guidance without the proper example. Hence, the need for Prophets.

[Best First]

But at least know what it is before you hate it.

the probem with your challenge is that 'what Isam is' is ultimatley down to personal interpritation (even if there is consensus amongst a group of personal interpritations), so when you challenge people to do is unrealistic and a denial of this fact.

This is equally true of the challnge to interprit things in 'the context in which they were revealed', which is again amatter of personal interpritation.

If it were not there would never be schism's in religions would there? There wouldn't be Sunni's and Shia's for example.

And that's not even considering the fact that pretty much everyone ignoers or is less adherant to certain aspects of their religion, especially when they come to seem substantially inconvenient or out of date.

Also by ignoring the personal aspect of interpriting any philosophy or theology you are rather ignoring the potential for different people to take differhnt things from the same faith and for this to potentially change the course of the faith or create subsections with different beliefs (Martin Luther being a good example) or how people respond to it.

So when you are saying Islam does not incite violence arguably what you are actually saying is "Islam does not incite violence in me".

Your Islam will not be everyone's Islam but they will no more think their interpritation is wrong than you do.

I don't really see how that can be rationally refuted.

Not to say that lends any use to DH's assertions, because there isn't really any.

[Kaylee]

Humble? Uh, next question.

Perhaps self-defacing would have been better

[sprunkner]

it would be more interesting to see you address Sprunker's points don't you think?

Quite so. Too bad thoughtful statements and moderate, thought out opinions reflecting nuanced opinions and actions are decidedly unsexy.

You don't... (sniff)... find me... (sob)... sexy anymore?

[Best First]

not since you got that awful tattoo.

[Yaya]

This is equally true of the challnge to interprit things in 'the context in which they were revealed', which is again amatter of personal interpritation.

No, interpreting things in the context in which they were revealed is absolutely an essential part of the correct understanding of how a certain verse is applied or should be applied.

For example, to read the verse in the Quran that antagonists like to quote where it states "and slay the disbelievers..." means a completely different thing if it is not understood that such commandments were revealed against an attacking enemy in times of war. The Quran and the Hadith are guidance for all types of situations, including wartimes. Taking this verse alone and presenting it as a reflection of the violent nature of Islam is just wrong.

It is a fundamental principle of Islam that self interpretation, for example of this verse, is not only dangerous, but labeled as a sin.

But going with what you say, certainly there is room for interpretation in Islam as well, because in certain instances Muhammad (PBUH) did one thing at one time, and a different thing at another. This is the basis of the different schools of thought within Islam, all considered to be legitimate because the fundamental doctrines remain the same. There is nothing wrong with different schools of thought, provided they are based on the teachings and actions of Muhammad (PBUH).

But going beyond this, going with self interpretation, is prohibited.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

What do u think of the ppl who call themselves 'Muslims' and use that bit of text you quoted as an excuse to violence?

I know that many of these Radical Muslims will say that Islam is at war with X,Y,Z and so its not out of context?

Out of interest, do you attend a mosque, and are these issues about mis-interpretation spoken about in regards to violent followers of Islam?

[Yaya]

What do u think of the ppl who call themselves 'Muslims' and use that bit of text you quoted as an excuse to violence?

They are either misguided, or purposely twisting Islam to fit their agendas. Obviously, I think they are wrong.

But I also don't think that these people are performing such acts simply to create violence for the sake of violence, or simply because someone had bad words to say about their faith. I think most of these people have been victims themselves, and have lost things most dear to them, like their families and homes. Does indiscriminate killing then become okay? Of course not. But most of these people want to die themselves, as they don't feel they have anything to live for. Would you be surprised to find, say an Iraqi, whose family has suffered from economic sactions for over a decade, who has lost his children to famine and disease, then been bombed from the sky to lose his home, willing to see his or her life end? War makes the most illogical of behaviors seem most fitting. It is not surprising that in Iraq you would find at least some individuals, bent on either getting revenge or looking to die, wanting to destroy themselves and others indiscriminately. Such individuals are always the product of war.

So in answer to your question, such actions are absolutely, positively prohibited in Islam. If you will study Islam, you will find there is not a single aspect of life for which guidance has not been given. There are etiquettes Muslims are commanded to follow, even in war.

Indiscriminate killing of civilians is categorically forbidden, and I can provide you references for this in the Hadith.

[Yaya]

Out of interest, do you attend a mosque, and are these issues about mis-interpretation spoken about in regards to violent followers of Islam?

I do attend mosques, and current events are rarely talked about.

The subject is usually how we can better ourselves as individuals, which I prefer to political diatribes. Topics like the importance of prayer, fasting, charity, etc. are usually the ones focused on.

The problem here in the US today, to be honest, is that imams are afraid to bring up political issues. Things are taken out of context all the time, and before you know it, the FBI is paying a visit, asking "what did you mean exactly when you said this and that?" This is no exaggeration. Two prominent imams of my community that I have known for years, the most peaceful people I have ever met, have been visited by the FBI after bringing up current events in their sermons.

Therefore, unfortunately, such discussions rarely materialize.

Besides, as I've said before, the first problem with the Muslims of the world today is that they do not behave as they should. They don't know their own religion. So when imams speak about how to improve as a Muslim, I feel they are actually addressing the crux of the problem.

[Best First]

i'll get back to you about context when i have the energy.

in the meanwhile, good quote alert:

"If certainties such as the war in Iraq and the axis of evil are based on a religious belief that God is on our side - versus we should be on God's side as Lincoln said - then certitude creates foreign policy problems," Ms Albright said.

well said luv.

from this article:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,,1881772,00.html

[Metal Vendetta]

Besides, as I've said before, the first problem with the Muslims of the world today is that they do not behave as they should. They don't know their own religion. So when imams speak about how to improve as a Muslim, I feel they are actually addressing the crux of the problem.

Sorry, but I just love the implication here - It's not that there's a problem with Islam, it's just that we have the wrong kind of Muslims.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

Well I think I understand what YaYa means - so, why are Muslims, not acting like, erm, Muslims?

[Yaya]

i'll get back to you about context when i have the energy.

in the meanwhile, good quote alert:

"If certainties such as the war in Iraq and the axis of evil are based on a religious belief that God is on our side - versus we should be on God's side as Lincoln said - then certitude creates foreign policy problems," Ms Albright said.

Beautifully said.

People of faiths have to realize that just being of that faith does not put "God on your side".

When a Muslim believes that he can wrong a Christian or atheist just because he feels God is on his side, he has another thing coming. There are numerous documented instances of a Muslim wronging others and the Prophet (PBUH) ruling in favor of the nonMuslim.

For example, there is a Hadith where a group of Muslims had been captured by the pagan Arabs. They made a promise that if they were freed, that they would not participate in the upcoming battle with the Pagans. The Pagans took them at their word, and were set free. Upon arriving to the Muslim army, they approached Muhammad (PBUH) and told of what had transpired. They began to don their armor, and he immediately forbade them and forced them to go to their homes. Though they were some of the Muslims greatest warriors of that time, they did not participate in the battle.

The point? Just because you are Muslim or Christian or any other faith does not give you a free pass to commit whatever wrongs you see fit, even if its just breaking a promise.

Which is what Ms. Albright is saying.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

Ok, thats cool, so why are Muslims not behaving like this?
refering to the quotes above this post?

Is it reasonable to say - that whenever you have a religion, no mater how good the laws are, and the purpose - at some point or another ppl will twist its meaning to use it as a weapon?
Religion and faith creates the best warriors.

[Yaya]

Ok, thats cool, so why are Muslims not behaving like this?
refering to the quotes above this post?.

Well, for one thing, I think you have to realize that those Muslims of which you are referring probably make up .0001% of the over one billion Muslims of the world. I can't stress this enough. Most people, of any race, of any culture, of any religion, are just trying to survive, just trying to make a living.

I mean, do you think we would be having this discussion if all Muslims were like those you are referring to? The world would be overrun by violent zealots. Fortunately, this is not the case. Unfortunately, we live in a time where two weapons exists that but if a few people use them, massive destruction can occur-namely, bombs and the media.

So I think its important to remember that. I have been fortunate enough to travel the world, to see different peoples and different cultures. There is one thing similiar to all. And that is, most people just want to live their life, to bring food to the table, and to sleep in a bed at night. Most people don't even know what goes on in the world. And for those who have this curiosity, they take what their media gives them.

[Best First]

are you not basically warning people not to extrapooate from a small number of examples they have seen and then doing exactly that when describing humanity?

[Yaya]

are you not basically warning people not to extrapooate from a small number of examples they have seen and then doing exactly that when describing humanity?

I don't know, I've met and seen a lot of people in my life. We are all human beings, and in the end we desire much of the same thing.

[Yaya]

Ok, thats cool, so why are Muslims not behaving like this?
refering to the quotes above this post?

A second reason, I feel, that Muslims don't behave as Muslims is because it becomes increasingly difficult for them to live in this world. Not just good Muslims, but good people in general.

It just seems harder and harder, for me anyway, to not be selfish, to not be self centered. The voices in our heads that shout "Me! Me!" are getting increasingly louder. Our reaction to selfishness is to in turn become selfish. My opinion, anyway. And there is no room for selfishness and mistrust in the religion of Islam.

For example, my mother was born and raised in this country. As I'm sure was the case in the UK as well, once upon a time you could leave your front door open without fear that some thief my murder or rape you. I hear stories of how people lived then, the old "grandpa" stories where people could trust one another. Personally, I feel those times are slipping further and further away.

Some might argue that times have changed for the better, and certainly in many ways they have. But in many ways, they haven't. For the Muslim who practices their religion, it has certainly become more difficult, anyway.

[Best First]

are you not basically warning people not to extrapooate from a small number of examples they have seen and then doing exactly that when describing humanity?

I don't know, I've met and seen a lot of people in my life. We are all human beings, and in the end we desire much of the same thing.

i think you are presuming to speak for people a bit too much, and over simplifying too much.

your statements a lot like saying 'religion is evil' - there's some truth in it or the motive behind saying it but that's not the whole picture.

if people just wanted to get on with life they wouldn't actually feel any need to believe in a higher being, for example.

plus i think its fair to say most of us have met and seen a lot of people