Christianity vs. Islam

[Metal Vendetta]

I think I was a hippy in a former life.

You think you got it bad? Turns out I was a hippy in this life.

Dammit.

Anyway, as I hinted earlier, choosing between Christianity and Islam is like choosing between a giant douche and a turd sandwich, and while I'd rather have a giant douche over a turd sandwich, it's largely irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.

And I said I would stop this sort of thing, but I've been drinking and I need to clear a couple of things up.

In the religion of Islam, the prophet Mohammed was just a man, albeit the head of a religion, and infallible. In Catholicism, the pope is just a man, albeit the head of a religion, and infallible. Both have their own personal hotline to God. For Muslims to display big old banners saying that the pope will burn in hell, as I have seen a great many in the press lately, is equivalent to Christians holding big old banners saying that Mohammed is burning in hell.

Stop me if I'm wrong. Please.

Not that I particularly care or anything. Bring on the holy war and let the Christians, Sikhs, Muslims, Hindus and all the rest fight it out over whose god is better, because whatever the result, the only outcome will be that there are less religious people in the world, and that can only be a good thing. My only worry is that one of the religions might actually win and the atheists who sat on the fence will have to listen to whichever crazed cleric takes over. Either that or the fact that a member of one of these religions actually believes that I give a [composite word including 'f*ck'] one way or the other and kills me because of it, or he kills me because I don't give a [composite word including 'f*ck'] and his religion gives him a mandate to smite all the nonbelievers. I'm looking at you here, Islam.

And I'll tell you all this for nothing: No-one in history ever went into a war with the devil on their side. Think on.

As a humourous aside, I stared down a preacher in Oxford Circus the other day, just listening to exactly what she was saying through her megaphone, nodding and occasionally laughing, and she actually packed up and left. I managed to scare her wrath of god ass away without even saying a single word. Afterwards I asked, "Is that it?" and she was all like, "What do you mean, is that it?" I said, "Is that it? I was enjoying that," and she hurried away saying "I have to go now." I swear, I'ma go back there and see if she has the balls to come back, because she was like the JWs I encountered the other week. They don't even have the strength of their convictions and they probably know **** all about their own religion.

As a second humourous aside, I've started attending a church service in Camden.

Don't ****ing laugh.

It's a multi-denominational (which kind of includes me, broadly) service of silent meditation. No-one says a word. No priest telling you what to do. No holy book. No bull-****ing-****. Just half an hour a week to go and be spiritual with a bunch of other people, without them telling you about how much they believe in their god and how much their god loves them and the rest of the self-justification you usually have to put up with. Half an hour to spend time with yourself and your thoughts and to contemplate your place in the universe*. That's the way forward.

* lately I have come to terms with my place in the universe, and that I will die and that the afterlife is most likely an invention of whatever religion wants to stake a claim on it. I'm thinking about moving to New Zealand where I will run an organic farm with my girl at my side and we'll sing, sing, sing....

[Dead Head]

when thousands of Muslims are on film, walking along, holding banners, saying burn Jesus

As already inferred by Yaya, Jesus is considered a highly respected Muslim prophet, so Muslims badmouthing him ain't really going to happen.

Islam ain't a field of roses, and it ain't a pile a ****.

No, it's just a pile of sh't.

[Best First]

How is it bizarre that I leave the study of Islam to those who know more about it than I do? I would rather defer to them than to accept what a nonMuslim who lacks but a superficial knowledge of the faith based on the actions of a few Muslims today.

its is bizzare that youw oudl trust the study of anything to a single source or perspective - that;s not study, thats just looking to hav eyour ideas confirmed back to you.

Which seeing as you are subservient to a faith based ideology i suppose is not a suprising thing fro you to try and advocate, as teh only assuarcne you will ever get is rom those who share that ideology.

But its not study. Study takes into account and reconciles differing points of view in the quest for truth and facst rather than the quest for affirmation fo existing opinions.

[Brendocon]

when thousands of Muslims are on film, walking along, holding banners, saying burn Jesus

As already inferred by Yaya, Jesus is considered a highly respected Muslim prophet, so Muslims badmouthing him ain't really going to happen.

You said it, man. Nobody ****s with The Jesus!

[Best First]

except the Romans...

[Aaron Hong]

and that Mary Magdalene woman.

[Legion]

and Santa

[Brendocon]

Yes... yes... and the Jews... and the blah blah... screw it, Dude. Let's go bowling.

[sprunkner]

I've studied a lot about Islam lately. I'm actually impressed with some things. The religion was created to rectify social problems in ancient Arabia. It did that. The problem is, as I see it, democracy works better for solving social problems than Islam does. Islam worked better, during their golden age, as a general religious society than most religions ever have, except perhaps the mild and tolerant paganism of the Roman Empire. But now the entire Islamic world has been handed "democracy" by nations acting in imperialist and demigogical (is that a word?) ways. So of course it doesn't look like the solution. Why wouldn't they want to go back to what usually works? Especially when the materialistic culture of the US is so threatening to Middle Eastern culture, which emphasizes familial loyalty over personal advancement.

If Iran were to go democratic, I think it would be a nice big blow. The most violently fundamentalist Islamic country in the world admitting that religious orthodoxy and government cannot unite-- that would be nice. And I think it will happen eventually, but it has to happen on its own. If the US invades, it'll be disrupting a very long process with a "quick fix." Of course, that shouldn't mean people should tolerate fundamentalist ******** from that country like their support of Hezbollah. But it's a long way from refusing to tolerate military support to invading the ******* country, and the present administration needs to realize that.

There are good non-Muslim Islamic scholars, Yaya-- Karen Armstrong, Bernard Lewis and Albert Hourani for example. But I think you've got a point. How can anyone claim to understand a faith without looking deeply at the testimony of the faithful? Why do people believe? What is the motivation? Until you can understand that, what grounds is there for real, positive, effective debate? I lost my faith. Deconversion happens. But it doesn't happen until the person understand why the reason they believe is flawed.

[Yaya]

How can anyone claim to understand a faith without looking deeply at the testimony of the faithful? Why do people believe? What is the motivation? Until you can understand that, what grounds is there for real, positive, effective debate?

Right, that is my point.

What compels me to pray, to fast, to avoid alcohol, etc. is not just practicality. It is obedience and love for a God whom I believe knows what is better for me than I do. If God has created myself and everything else, then He knows what's best. It is this faith I put in Him that compels me to act as a Muslim.

But the deep study of Islam and its commandments reveals a surprise to those who are willing to think in a very open minded fashion by putting aside that which Freud called the Id, the part of us that says "I want, I want". That surprise is that in the long run, we as a society are better off followng these commandments.

Though the immediate benefits of, say, abstinence from alcohol, may not be felt by the individual, on a social level the benefits are many. These benefits eventually come back to benefit the individual.

Societies are made up of families, families of individuals. The commandments of Islam are like medicine at the society level, which trickles down to the individual. Such is the practical wisdom of the Islamic teachings which many will refuse to recognize, and see them not as beneficial, but as restrictive.

This is where God's attribute of Mercy comes in. Had He willed, He could have commanded us to perform things which are hurtful to ourselves and others in the long run. He could have commanded me to bang my head against a rock five times a day. But He did not. Instead, He has commanded me to call into remembrance His Magnificence, and this remembrance is what keeps me out of potentially troubling situations. How easy is it to do wrong, to myself and others, if I must be reminded of God's presence five times a day? That is why Muslims who forgo this five times pray are the ones that tend to commit evil. They forget, become arrogant, even violent. The whispers of Satan are always close by, and humankind is easily swayed. That is why of all sins in Islam, the biggest is to miss the obligatory five daily prayers.

In order to understand the true benefits of Islam, a deep study, not just an on the surface glance prone to prejudgment, is required.

If you want a true scholar's input, one that is highly respected, born and bred in the West, a convert to Islam, then listen to Hamza Yusuf of the Zaytuna Islamic Institute in California. Because he is a product of the West, he is easy to follow and understand, unlike many of the older Islamic scholars of the Middle East, most of which don't speak English.
http://www.zaytuna.org/

Though there are highly respected scholars of Islam not of the Islamic faith, the best source is always one of that faith, IMO.

[Dead Head]

Too little time as ever to debunk the junk you religious propagandists are spewing, as ever.

[Best First]

If you want a true scholar's input, one that is highly respected, born and bred in the West, a convert to Islam, then listen to Hamza Yusuf of the Zaytuna Islamic Institute in California. Because he is a product of the West, he is easy to follow and understand, unlike many of the older Islamic scholars of the Middle East, most of which don't speak English.
http://www.zaytuna.org/

i don't want any one individuals input because that isn't how you form judgements, or at least it shouldn't be - which remains my point.

However i will probably look at this guy ALONG WITH OTHERS.

Also one is claiming that a quick glance is all that is require to understand any faith, merely that only looking intrenal to that faith does not give you the complete picture - this remains, or at least should be, obvious.

Noweher do i say don't look at the faith or the faithful - just don't JUST do that. If you do you have no interets in truth, as stated.

As for benefits, lets not forget downsides a well...

Oh, and as an aside what i have read of Karen Armstrong she is a terrible scholar, her treatise on Islam are horribly blinkered.

While there is definitely an anti-islamic slant in some aspects of the media, people like Armstrong add little to the debate, her commentary on teh crusades for example more or less entirely ignores the fact that there was significant Islamic aggresion (or at least aggression by Islamic states - whichever phrasing you want to use) to essentially imply that teh crusades were entirely unprovoked - that's not to say they were justified but any historian who happily glosses over Islamic armies from the middle east getting as far as Spain and Germany isn't worth listening to.

[Dead Head]

her commentary on teh crusades for example more or less entirely ignores the fact that there was significant Islamic aggresion (or at least aggression by Islamic states - whichever phrasing you want to use) to essentially imply that teh crusades were entirely unprovoked

Islam was spread far and wide by lollipops, rainbows, and gumdrops in the four centuries that preceded the Xian crusades.

- that's not to say they were justified but any historian who happily glosses over Islamic armies from the middle east getting as far as Spain and Germany isn't worth listening to.

There was no such thing as the xian Reconquista in Spain, just the brutal unenlightened xian Conquista from those ever-hard-done-by-good-Muslims.

.
.
All the West and it's media ever does is twist things to make glorious Islam look bad. Blah blah blah.

[Brendocon]

her commentary on teh crusades for example more or less entirely ignores the fact that there was significant Islamic aggresion (or at least aggression by Islamic states - whichever phrasing you want to use) to essentially imply that teh crusades were entirely unprovoked

Islam was spread far and wide by lollipops, rainbows, and gumdrops in the four centuries that preceded the Xian crusades.

And unicorns. Don't forget the unicorns.

[The Last Autobot]

Islam was spread far and wide by lollipops, rainbows, and gumdrops in the four centuries that preceded the Xian crusades.

And unicorns. Don't forget the unicorns.

Rainbow Brite spread the islam?



If I were in a muslim country this would deserve hanging, drowning or any other kind of death I guess.

[Shanti418]

Hmmmm, that explains why Strawberry Shortcake performed my Bapitsm....

[Best First]

If I were in a muslim country this would deserve hanging, drowning or any other kind of death I guess.

in what sense?

[The Last Autobot]

If I were in a muslim country this would deserve hanging, drowning or any other kind of death I guess.

in what sense?

Maybe the sense of humor they lack!

Or in the sense that If I say anything against them/their religion Im dead meat... And my family and friends and anybody close.

[BB Shockwave]

2) The BBC is actually pretty good, bear in mind a lot of people you are debating with don't watch so much Fox or CNN but British news which isn’t nerdy as bad

Exactly! I had the priviledge of watching both CNN and BBC after 2001.09.11. and the quality and the professionality was wastly different, as well as sticking to the truth... BBc reporters are always more like a true journailst should be and view the situation unbiased.

Can't comment about Fox as I never saw that channel.

[Optimus Prime Rib]

Hmmmm, that explains why Strawberry Shortcake performed my Bapitsm....

sure it wasnt Miss Muffy?

WARNING ADULT HUMOR AND SWEARING!

http://www.magicbutter.com/content/muffvid1.html

[sprunkner]

Too little time as ever to debunk the junk you religious propagandists are spewing, as ever.

So I believe there is more than simple evil to religion and now I'm a propagandist?

I'm not religious. I'm not Muslim. I'm just suggesting that it might be worth it to look at the reasons why people believe rather than issuing blanket condemnations of faith based only on the illogical aspects of the faith. For example: why do you hate Islam so much?

her commentary on teh crusades for example more or less entirely ignores the fact that there was significant Islamic aggresion (or at least aggression by Islamic states - whichever phrasing you want to use) to essentially imply that teh crusades were entirely unprovoked - that's not to say they were justified but any historian who happily glosses over Islamic armies from the middle east getting as far as Spain and Germany isn't worth listening to.

She is very biased towards Islam, to the point of being ridiculous. And, since she's a former Christian, she's too harsh on Christianity. But I think she does a good job getting to the heart of an issue. I liked "Holy War" because it did a good job of explaining the rationale behind land-idolizing, the way that a place becomes a "promised land." A History of God is a must-read at least.

[Yaya]

i don't want any one individuals input because that isn't how you form judgements, or at least it shouldn't be - which remains my point.

However i will probably look at this guy ALONG WITH OTHERS.

Fair enough. Take from it what you will and believe of it what you will.

Interestingly, there is an interview of Hamza Yusuf by BBC on the multimedia section. The one titled "BBC: Islam Post September 11 with Hamza Yusuf"

http://www.zaytuna.org/video.asp

I just watched it. It covers ALOT of the threads we have been discussing here the past few months. I would ask, BF, that you watch it from start to finish, as I feel it answers questions that have been asked that I don't have the capability of answering as effectively. Again, you can disagree with it, but I think you might find it worth watching.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

Whilst BF will listen to many different view points, religion doesnt genrally allow you to do this.

For example, if your Islamic, you dont belive Jesus was the son of god, can u be a Muslim and Belive he was the son of god? correct me if im wrong here of course but this is fundemntal to the rules right?

But for me, I can look at the christian view and the Islamic view, compare the two and decided based on the evidence before me.

I come down on the Islamic side here purely because I dont belive there is a god full stop, and thus Jesus cannot be the son of a god. thats not to say i dont belive Jesus existed of course.

If you follow a religion, you either take what your scholars say to be fact, or you dont follow your religion. this can create a warped sense of reality in my view

[Yaya]

I come down on the Islamic side here purely because I dont belive there is a god full stop

Which is the what I have been saying. As someone who does not believe in God, your evaluation of Islam will only be based on how practical you see it. That is, what personal worldly benefits can it offer you. You will not look at Islam in the spiritual sense, which is fundamental in understanding the faith.

As Hamza Yusuf states in the BBC interview above, Islam is "peace through submission." That is, inner peace through submission of self to the Creator. If you don't believe in a Creator, then what good can it do you?

I don't try to convince you God exists. I only wish to clear up the misconception that Islam is a religion of violence. It's not. Though Muslims can be violent, as can Christians and atheists, it is not a reflection of the faith itself.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

Of course I understand anyone can be violent - I can be violent but its the motivational factors thats radical Islamists use to insence others to be violent is the problem.

On news night (a respected news programe within in the UK - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/n ... efault.stm ) yesterday - they had the Head of the a UK islamic group, he said on average there are around 28 sucide bombings by Muslims every day between Iraq and afghanistan.

This isnt the fault of Islam but only religion can give so many ppl the motivaion to take thier lives via beliving they will become a Martyr - this is the wrong kind of faith obviously.

Its clearly a problem right now that so many Muslims are being 'conned' tricked' mislead, call it what you will, into thinking this is how they should behave.

[Yaya]

This isnt the fault of Islam but only religion can give so many ppl the motivaion to take thier lives via beliving they will become a Martyr - this is the wrong kind of faith obviously.

Its clearly a problem right now that so many Muslims are being 'conned' tricked' mislead, call it what you will, into thinking this is how they should behave.

What about despair? Grief? Vengence?

I would say these are the prime motivators in suicide bombings, not Islam. The religion is the way for such people to find some rationalization to support their actions. These are desperate people wanting to die, yet do not want to be condemned for it.

[sprunkner]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=5KBqcOxIzTY& ... ed&search=

[anna]

being a cristian myself thats my obvious response.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

What about despair? Grief? Vengence?

I would say these are the prime motivators in suicide bombings, not Islam. The religion is the way for such people to find some rationalization to support their actions. These are desperate people wanting to die, yet do not want to be condemned for it.

They are emotions. Emotions are caused by feelings.

To despair, u must despair about somthing, to feel grief, you have to be in grieving etc... so what has caused these emotions?

Suicide Bombers feel the need for vengence when someone damms thier religion etc...
SB, or terroists blowing up trains or trade towers do it in the name of 'Islam' - Now, I dont for one moment think that these ppl are true Muslims of the faith - they are sadley deslusional people who have found justification in thier own deaths via idea of becomming a matyr.

Religion is a powerfull tool - its one of the few things that can convince ppl to kill innocent ppl or to commit sucided for thier god etc... this isnt a new thing tho - Christians, Muslims and various cults have used the same practise since the dawn of man.
The only difference is the weapons they fight it with now - Christians fought with swords in the crusades, Radical Muslims do it with Bombs.

Religion is the motivation for Sunnis killing Shiates in Iraq etc... its nothing new, Mankinds has being doing this for along time... its not a new thing, its just never been done with huge bombs.

[Dead Head]

Suicide Bombers

Martyr defenders, surely.

I dont for one moment think that these ppl are true Muslims of the faith

Really? They are.

Religion is a powerfull tool - its one of the few things that can convince ppl to kill innocent ppl or to commit sucided for thier god etc

Indeed.

The only difference is the weapons they fight it with now - Christians fought with swords in the crusades, Radical Muslims do it with Bombs.

Radical? Plenty of 'ordinary' Muslims and Christians took the sword up in order to "defend" their faith.