ALL religions make me want to throw up...

[Yaya]

also, thats such a non point "some old things may be valid", yes, but some may not.

Some? If there is only one complete truth, than most are not valid.

Anyway that does not make religions the quest for truth, if they were they would also 'encourage' (i don't see a lot of evidence for religions going out of their way to promote science).

Perhaps most don't. But some do. Arabs, devout followers of Islam and belief in one God, were amongst the greatest scientists, astronomers, and mathmeticians of their time. And Einstein, a God-fearing Jew, was yet another strong proponent of scientific discovery. They all viewed science as a means to understanding God.

So do I.

Also, i wonder, does studying, say, HIV or cancer help you "to understand how God makes things work and to garner a greater appreciation of His greatness."?

Absolutely, without a doubt, for me anyway. One thing is clear, we will all meet our end, one way or another. HIV and cancer are just some of the many roads we all must take to the same end. Asking whether these things take away from God's greatness is like asking does the fact that we all have to die take away from His greatness. In fact, such things are what show to us another of God's attributes that make Him great. Namely, we must perish, while He will not.

[Bouncelot]

Once I believe that He does, then we are left with hundreds of religions, of which either a) one is the truth or b) none are the truth. All can't be all true.

There are a few cases where two different religions are compatible with each other rather than contradicting each other. But that's just nitpicking. The conclusion that not all of them can be true is indisputable.

[Metal Vendetta]

Also, i wonder, does studying, say, HIV or cancer help you "to understand how God makes things work and to garner a greater appreciation of His greatness."?

It's bizarre - I had typed almost exactly this sentence into my window, and got called away...good job I refreshed my browser

[Perhaps most don't. But some do. Arabs, devout followers of Islam and belief in one God, were amongst the greatest scientists, astronomers, and mathmeticians of their time. And Einstein, a God-fearing Jew, was yet another strong proponent of scientific discovery. They all viewed science as a means to understanding God.

So do I.

So you're on the same level as *cough* Einstein?

Einstein once said: "My first religious training of any kind was in the Catholic catechism." Also: "I came - though the child of entirely irreligious (Jewish) parents - to a deep religiousness, which, however, reached an abrupt end at the age of twelve." As an adult, he called his religion a "cosmic religious sense". For example: "What I see in Nature is a magnificent structure that we can comprehend only very imperfectly, and that must fill a thinking person with a feeling of 'humility.' This is a genuinely religious feeling that has nothing to do with mysticism."

[Einstien] wrote an article for the _New York Times expounding his religious beliefs. He spoke of himself as having a "cosmic religious sense," which knows "no dogmas and no God made in man's image," which he said was shared with the great mystics; he compared himself with the likes of Democritus, St. Francis, and Spinoza*. He also commented that one must have a poor moral sense if the only way one could act virtuously is if one expect rewards and punishments after death.

In another article he stated that the concept of an omnipotent, omniscient, and omni-benevolent being runs afoul of the Problem of Evil. He also stated that the dominant religions of our part of the world could do without this particular concept. He seemed to feel that one could not conclusively_disprove_ the existence of such a being, but felt that there was no positive reason to believe that one exists, so he did not believe in the existence of any such being.

All in all, he seemed very tolerant about this sort of thing; he expressed sympathy with someone who considered "religion" a turn-off.

"God-fearing Jew"...you still make me laugh, Yaya

*As an edit, when directly asked: "Do you believe in God?" Einstein said: "I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony in what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings."

Spinoza's view of God was that God, essentially, was the same thing as Nature; a God that

does not rule over the universe by providence, but a God which itself is part of the deterministic system of which everything in nature is a part. Thus, God is the natural world and has no personality.

[Yaya]

Also, i wonder, does studying, say, HIV or cancer help you "to understand how God makes things work and to garner a greater appreciation of His greatness."?

It's bizarre - I had typed almost exactly this sentence into my window, and got called away...good job I refreshed my browser

[Perhaps most don't. But some do. Arabs, devout followers of Islam and belief in one God, were amongst the greatest scientists, astronomers, and mathmeticians of their time. And Einstein, a God-fearing Jew, was yet another strong proponent of scientific discovery. They all viewed science as a means to understanding God.

So do I.

So you're on the same level as *cough* Einstein?

Einstein once said: "My first religious training of any kind was in the Catholic catechism." Also: "I came - though the child of entirely irreligious (Jewish) parents - to a deep religiousness, which, however, reached an abrupt end at the age of twelve." As an adult, he called his religion a "cosmic religious sense". For example: "What I see in Nature is a magnificent structure that we can comprehend only very imperfectly, and that must fill a thinking person with a feeling of 'humility.' This is a genuinely religious feeling that has nothing to do with mysticism."

[Einstien] wrote an article for the _New York Times expounding his religious beliefs. He spoke of himself as having a "cosmic religious sense," which knows "no dogmas and no God made in man's image," which he said was shared with the great mystics; he compared himself with the likes of Democritus, St. Francis, and Spinoza*. He also commented that one must have a poor moral sense if the only way one could act virtuously is if one expect rewards and punishments after death.

In another article he stated that the concept of an omnipotent, omniscient, and omni-benevolent being runs afoul of the Problem of Evil. He also stated that the dominant religions of our part of the world could do without this particular concept. He seemed to feel that one could not conclusively_disprove_ the existence of such a being, but felt that there was no positive reason to believe that one exists, so he did not believe in the existence of any such being.

All in all, he seemed very tolerant about this sort of thing; he expressed sympathy with someone who considered "religion" a turn-off.

"God-fearing Jew"...you still make me laugh, Yaya

*As an edit, when directly asked: "Do you believe in God?" Einstein said: "I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony in what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings."

Spinoza's view of God was that God, essentially, was the same thing as Nature; a God that

does not rule over the universe by providence, but a God which itself is part of the deterministic system of which everything in nature is a part. Thus, God is the natural world and has no personality.

Yet Einstein believed in God, just ascribing different attributes to him than traditional Jews.

The point is he believed in God, but rejected the idea of supreme justice for one's actions.

And that was my point, that the study of science does not negate the belief in a supreme diety. A person can be both a student of science and a believer in God.

So you're on the same level as *cough* Einstein?

As a scientist, of course not. As a person, God only knows.

[Yaya]

Once I believe that He does, then we are left with hundreds of religions, of which either a) one is the truth or b) none are the truth. All can't be all true.

There are a few cases where two different religions are compatible with each other rather than contradicting each other. But that's just nitpicking. The conclusion that not all of them can be true is indisputable.

Certainly, religions of the world share much in common. Just look at the big three-Islam, Judaism, and Christianity. Yet a person must believe that either one is Truth, or none is Truth, as you say.

[Guest]

The truth.

[Metal Vendetta]

Yet Einstein believed in God, just ascribing different attributes to him than traditional Jews.

The point is he believed in God, but rejected the idea of supreme justice for one's actions.

Einstein defined God as Nature, after Spinoza, who was excommunicated as an atheist by the Jews. For Einstein to tell Rabbi Herbert Goldstein that he believed in "Spinoza's God" was essentially a way of telling him that he didn't. At best, Einstien was pantheistic but more likely he was agnostic or maybe atheist. His work was said to have "cloaked the ghastly apparition of atheism" by church spokesmen, also that it was "befogged speculation, producing universal doubt about God and His Creation".

From Einstein's letters:

It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.

I cannot conceive of a personal God who would directly influence the actions of individuals, or would directly sit in judgment on creatures of his own creation. I cannot do this in spite of the fact that mechanistic causality has, to a certain extent, been placed in doubt by modern science.

My religiosity consists in a humble admiration of the infinitely superior spirit that reveals itself in the little that we, with our weak and transitory understanding, can comprehend of reality. Morality is of the highest importance-but for us, not for God.

I do not believe that the basic ideas of the theory of relativity can lay claim to a relationship with the religious sphere that is different from that of scientific knowledge in general. I see this connection in the fact that profound interrelationships in the objective world can Ije comprehended through simple logical concepts. To be sure, in the theory of relativity this is the case in particularly full measure.

The religious feeling engendered by experiencing the logical comprehensibility of profound interrelations is of a somewhat different sort from the feeling that one usually calls religious. It is more a feeling of awe at the scheme that is manifested in the material universe. It does not lead us to take the step of fashioning a god-like being in our own image-a personage who makes demands of us and who takes an interest in us as individuals. There is in this neither a will nor a goal, nor a must, but only sheer being. For this reason, people of our type see in morality a purely human matter, albeit the most important in the human sphere.

I do not believe in immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind it.

The mystical trend of our time, which shows itself particularly in the rampant growth of the so-called Theosophy and Spiritualism, is for me no more than a symptom of weakness and confusion.

Since our inner experiences consist of reproductions and combinations of sensory impressions, the concept of a soul without a body seems to me to be empty and devoid of meaning.

I'm not saying you can't be a scientist and believe in God, I'm just trying to illustrate the value of research, often important in the field of science. Try and know what you're talking about before you start writing off one of the greatest thinkers of the 20th Century as a "God-fearing Jew", and then comparing yourself to him because I'm pretty sure Einstein would have known his facts before he plucked Spinoza's name out of the air.

And defining God as Nature isn't far away from Natural Selection at all, is it?

[Best First]

it also suggests equality amongst all species and events, not something religions (montheistic ones anyway) tend to do.

In fact, strangley, a lot of the religions humans subscribe to seem to think humans are really importnat, but i'm sure that's just coincidence.

oh, and yaya, its entirely possible that all things old (by which you seem to only mean religions judging by the context in which you took my quote) may not be valid, the notion of a singular truth in no way presumes that we have actually stumbled across it.

Asking whether these things take away from God's greatness is like asking does the fact that we all have to die take away from His greatness.

ah, yaya, so often you make this mistake, telling someone what they mean in a way that makes little or no sense.

Asking why some of us 'must' expire in cruel and pianful fashions which cause emotional torment for not just ourselves but those around us is, quite clearly, not the same as asking why we must expire at all.

Trying to gloss over that does not really make for a convincing arguement.

That said, if we have been created by an infinite being, why must we expire at all? Your tone seems to suggest that this is a question that would be absurd to ask, whilst at the same time you claim religion is a quest for truth. huh.

In fact, such things are what show to us another of God's attributes that make Him great. Namely, we must perish, while He will not.

the fact that we die in no way shows that someone/thing else persists. That's pure speculation on your part or on the part of whoever you adopted your beliefs from.

[Yaya]

In fact, strangley, a lot of the religions humans subscribe to seem to think humans are really importnat, but i'm sure that's just coincidence.

Yes, a lot of religions do make humans out to be really important, and to none of these would I subscribe to.

For example, I believe any religion that states that God is a man to be false and fabricated in an effort to bring God down to the level of man. The Creator of everything need not look like His creation.

the notion of a singular truth in no way presumes that we have actually stumbled across it.

We are created with a will to choose what we want to believe. To you is your belief, and to me is mine. But whatever differences we might have, it would not change that there is one truth.

Asking why some of us 'must' expire in cruel and pianful fashions which cause emotional torment for not just ourselves but those around us is, quite clearly, not the same as asking why we must expire at all.

Well, the approach to how you look at this determines how you feel about this. I will tell you what I believe, though I'm sure you will disagree.

My mindset: I believe God exists. I believe He is a Just God who created us for His own reasons and is worthy of our worship. I believe in a Hereafter. If I believe God is Just, then I believe all humans beings are accountable for their actions, both good and bad. With this mindset, a person will receive exactly what they deserve, ultimately, whether it be the here and now, or in the hereafter. A person might suffer some affliction in this life because God extends mercy to that person and frees him from a worse punishment later, either in this life or the next. In other words, disease and afflication can be a mercy. There are other ways disease and affliction can be mercy. Assume for a moment that disbelief in God makes one hellbound. Perhaps a person with HIV or cancer, had they gone on to live long enough without their disease, would have eventually given up the idea that God exist and would face punishment for this later. Because he suffers and knows death is on his doorstep he reflects on meeting his Creator, and believes this in his heart when he dies. In this instance, his illness was a mercy, not a punishment.

In othe words, for those who believe in a just God, whatever befalls a person in this life cannot be interpreted as good or bad. What seems good may be bad, and vice versa. God only knows, for one who believes in God.

Now, the other mindset: No God exists, or God exists but is unjust. Then yes, HIV and cancer are terrible things because they take away all that we have. You may be of this mindset.

Those are two ways a person can view terrible events. The pain and suffering is real, and nobody wants to have HIV and cancer, but what your views on life are determine how you come to terms with adversity.

Would I be angry, sad, scared to have these diseases? Of course, I'm human. I would question "why" as much as anyone. But I would hope in the end that I would leave the "why" part to my Creator and live out the rest of my life as best I could, and as grateful as I could be, for what I have been given.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

So we are just gods experiment? thats what your describing...

I believe He is a Just God who created us for His own reasons and is worthy of our worship

If I have no say in how my life actually turns out: ie. I get AIDS but next life-time I might not. Then why Worship? it doesnt do anything, god had already planned it out according to you, worship would be utterly pointless.

Very human. without humans there is no god.

[Best First]

For example, I believe any religion that states that God is a man to be false and fabricated in an effort to bring God down to the level of man. The Creator of everything need not look like His creation.

hence yor repetition of a capitalised generic masculine.

the notion of a singular truth in no way presumes that we have actually stumbled across it.

We are created with a will to choose what we want to believe. To you is your belief, and to me is mine. But whatever differences we might have, it would not change that there is one truth.

yes, but you see the important thing here is that that statement in no way addresses my point.

My mindset: I believe God exists. I believe He is a Just God who created us for His own reasons and is worthy of our worship.

first question - if it keeps its reason to himself how do we know it is just?

I believe in a Hereafter.

second question - why?

If I believe God is Just, then I believe all humans beings are accountable for their actions, both good and bad. With this mindset, a person will receive exactly what they deserve, ultimately, whether it be the here and now, or in the hereafter.

so, if this is true, and God is just then it will clearly communciate his standards of good and bad to all with no room for misinterpritation yes? Kinda screwed that one up, hasn't it?

A person might suffer some affliction in this life because God extends mercy to that person and frees him from a worse punishment later, either in this life or the next. In other words, disease and afflication can be a mercy. There are other ways disease and affliction can be mercy. Assume for a moment that disbelief in God makes one hellbound. Perhaps a person with HIV or cancer, had they gone on to live long enough without their disease, would have eventually given up the idea that God exist and would face punishment for this later. Because he suffers and knows death is on his doorstep he reflects on meeting his Creator, and believes this in his heart when he dies. In this instance, his illness was a mercy, not a punishment.

and what about the suffering of those around them, those who love them? How does God factor in that?

what about people who suffer terribly from cancer and then go into remission? Or are you goingt o tell me that the best way to beat cancer is to start believing in God?

In othe words, for those who believe in a just God, whatever befalls a person in this life cannot be interpreted as good or bad. What seems good may be bad, and vice versa. God only knows, for one who believes in God.

so, essentially, human experience is meaningless as no judgement can be attributed to any event and you should acccept anything that happens to you? And of course this means that freewill is an empty concept because you are being judged by a set of rules that you may not understand. And even if you do then you are operating to a set of cosmic rules so your only choice is to obey or not and be punished or not, which again is not free will.

Would I be angry, sad, scared to have these diseases? Of course, I'm human. I would question "why" as much as anyone. But I would hope in the end that I would leave the "why" part to my Creator and live out the rest of my life as best I could, and as grateful as I could be, for what I have been given.

which really brinsg us backto the notion of a coping mechanism, doesn't it?

[Yaya]

So we are just gods experiment? thats what your describing...

Experiment implies a quest to seek an answer to something. God knows everything, as He created everything, including time itself. Why He chooses to conduct existence in this fashion is His business and beyond human comprehension.

If I have no say in how my life actually turns out: ie. I get AIDS but next life-time I might not. Then why Worship? it doesnt do anything, god had already planned it out according to you, worship would be utterly pointless.

Worship is for us, not God. He doesn't need worship, only commands it of us for our own well being. The benefits of proper worship cannot be understood unless the action of worship in the way God wants us to is performed.

There is a difference between God knowing what will happen, and God making it happen. The thing that separates mankind from the rest of Creation is we are given a will of our own. In essence, we are more "God-like" than the rest of creation. A bird has no choice in the matter. A rock, a tree, follow God's design and can't sway from it. An angel, a creature of light, has no will of its own. Man, however, has been given the exceptional quality of free will. Predestination means everything that happens has been known by the Creator that it will happen.

first question - if it keeps its reason to himself how do we know it is just?

Hence the purpose of Messengers. Angels and Prophets are for that very reason. So we know.

second question - why(believe in a hereafter)?

First, I believe in God. If I did not think this, then I would not believe in a Hereafter. It starts with the question, "Do I believe in a God or not?"

I happen to believe in one God, one Creator. So the next question arises, if I exist, and God created me as He did everything else, for what end and for what purpose? Is it for nothing, or do I, like everything else that exists, have a purpose, a reason for being created? Hence the search for that purpose, which takes one on a journey through the religions of the world. If I believe that God guides His creation, then the truth is out there, whether its 1000B.C. or 2010. Personally, I am inclined to a faith that a) holds God as a singular entity unlike anything in Creation, an entity beyond my understanding except of what He wills that I know of Him and b) a God that has provided guidance for mankind that has not changed even a single iota since the time of its revelation, something that remains in its original form, unaltered by human hands or minds.

so, if this is true, and God is just then it will clearly communciate his standards of good and bad to all with no room for misinterpritation yes?

Justice is not mean punishment for ignorance. If truth is revealed to some, but others never hear it, justice would be that those who never know and never will know be judged by different standards, right? That's why judgement in the spiritual sense cannot be from a person. No person can know the situation, internally or externally, of the other person. That's why open criticism of other shortcomings and judging them by this is flat out wrong. A prostitute who feeds a starving dog could be rewarded more than a king who prays all the time to God, fasts for him, etc. because only God knows the true situation of a person. The prostitute could be sincere in her act, while the king could just be thinking "let others see how great I am".

Its the personal judgements by religious people, who think they are perfect and can do no wrong, that think that the faith in God they have is something they have achieved, that turn off the Impactors of the world. People should worry about themselves more and others less. How many times in life do we see a stout believer in God later deny His existence, and seen an atheist somehow by the time of his or her death become a devout believer in God? Worry about yourself, I say, and leave judgement to the same who will judge me someday.

and what about the suffering of those around them, those who love them? How does God factor in that?

Reward and punishment, in essence justice, come to everyone, in an infinite number of ways. Those around a sick loved one are held to the same standards of justice as the one who is sick.

Or are you goingt o tell me that the best way to beat cancer is to start believing in God?

If we base our belief in God on whether or not things go according to our plans, then faith is on shaky ground. That would mean that when apparently good things happen to us, we should be God-fearing, and when bad things happen, we should be God-rejecting. I don't see this as faith. Faith in God to me means that we accept His plan, for it is the acceptance of this plan that will lead us to good.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

Ok god doesnt need worship, worship is for us (being mankind?) so can you explain what worship does for a worshiper?

Im loathe to except that worship makes you a better person, there are alot of good ppl on earth who dont worship a god. So whats it all about?

And if God doesnt need worship - then why worship him, if he doesnt need it?

and

How do you know all of this, did God tell you?

[Yaya]

Ok god doesnt need worship, worship is for us (being mankind?) so can you explain what worship does for a worshiper?

Certainly.

First of all, what is worship? Worship is anything done for the love and pleasure of the Creator, provided it is acceptable behavior to Him. For example, if I get up and brush my teeth in the morning so my breath doesn't smell, that's one thing. If I get up and brush my teeth in the morning because God commands that we not make our fellow human being uncomfortable, that is worship. The action is the same, yet the intention is what makes it worship. Some think worship is getting on ones knees and praising God, and I believe yes, that is worship too. But only one of many kinds of worship. Nearly any action can be made worship if done with the proper pure intention. Another example, in the religion of Islam, to sleep with one's wife is considered worship of God, because it pleases God that a husband and wife should seek the pleasure of one another. On the other hand, raping someone is just the opposite. Again, the act is the same, the intention is different.

So what does worship do for us as people? Worship is a constant reminder. A reminder of why we are here and what we will face when we die. It is much harder to go astray, much harder to forget, when we take the time out to reflect on our existence and our relationship with out Creator. Moreover, worship brings one in tune with God and a certain peace, even in stressful circumstances, has been known to overtake one deep in worship.

Humans are an easily swayed creation. Just look at the American people, how they have been swayed into an unjust war with Iraq. If we have a will of our own, then certainly, we can make it our will to do wrong if we so choose. But remembrance and worship of the Creator stays our hand, makes us honest, makes us trustworthy, which lends itself to a more trusting society. If we remember the Creator, then we also remember the justice that will be meted out eventually, whether it be in this life or the next. In other words, we are reminded that we can't get away with causing harm to others, even when seemingly nobody knows of it.

Worship reminds us of our accountability.

If all that was ever created gave up worship, it would take nothing away for the greatness or majesty of the Creator. If He chose to, He could simply replace this very existence, time, space, etc. God does not need our worship. God needs nothing and is the only One who is Self-Sufficient.

Im loathe to except that worship makes you a better person, there are alot of good ppl on earth who dont worship a god. So whats it all about?

Who are you or I to judge who is a good person, and who isn't? Again, I believe only God knows what lies in a persons thoughts, intentions, in one's heart. If you believe in God, you leave "good person, bad person" to Him, and just try to be the best person you can be.

I will say that I believe that any person who does good, whether they believe in God or not, God knows it and rewards for it in some way. But certainly, its a two-way street. God can choose to punish as well for doing wrong.

And if God doesnt need worship - then why worship him, if he doesnt need it?

See above

How do you know all of this, did God tell you?

Not directly, but I have studied my religion and believe it to be true. I don't believe God would try us, give us reward or punishment, without proper guidance. So, in a way, I guess He has told me, though not by speaking to me.

[sprunkner]

It's been a while since we had a religious discussion. I was starting to get worried.

I don't know what to say to all this. (But I'm going to say it anyway!) I spent my entire life, until the last few months, as a member of a faith that was extremely literalist and dogmatic. Mormonism really does have an explanation for everything... kind of like Yaya's attempts to answer everyone's questions. I think I've believed differently from the majority of Mormons since I was seventeen, but it took me until twenty-five to admit that I couldn't do it anymore.

I still believe in God... but my belief is kind of like those Jews in Auschwitz who put Him on trial, found Him guilty of allowing atrocities to happen, and then, after condemning Him to death, asked who would say the closing prayer.

Is it conditioned reflex or deeper than understanding?

I'm completey sure that bad things simply happen because of certain people's choices and stupid luck. If God exists, He is obviously not standing in the way of either one.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

I will say that I believe that any person who does good, whether they believe in God or not, God knows it and rewards for it in some way. But certainly, its a two-way street. God can choose to punish as well for doing wrong.

Ok so if god knows good ppl from bad ppl then I dont need to worship him them - as he doesnt require worship and I see no need to remind myself of God.

If I can just lead my life being good, and if there is a God ill find out when I meet him (so to speak) - I dont need to worship him as he does not require worship, all he cares about is if I im good or bad, if I go to heaven or get punished everything else is beyond my controll.

I dont see the need in life to follow religon when the basic rule of thumb, and somthing i think u learn very early in life, is to be good to each other.
Life is full of dilemas but i still need no rule book because thats life...

[Best First]

I don't know what to say to all this. (But I'm going to say it anyway!) I spent my entire life, until the last few months, as a member of a faith that was extremely literalist and dogmatic. Mormonism really does have an explanation for everything... kind of like Yaya's attempts to answer everyone's questions.

What bothers me is that 'answers to everything' are always based on premises that that person or that faith have decided are true.

so essentially the answer, no matter how wordy it is, is always 'because I say so'.

People can point, for example, to the Bible as a source of truth, but they are the ones who decide to give it credence therefore all that is essentially being said is "this is the truth because I think it is'.

of course that begs the question why I bother questioning people who adopt such a mentality who will happily infer one illogical thing from another and then state it as if it were obvious fact (e.g. the existence of God must mean there is an afterlife, when one n no way logically infers the other) , but to be honest it fascinates and worries me in equal measure. Its a bit like picking a scab in some ways.

Although some things just irritate me, like statements that intimate that its 'remembering' God that makes us honest, trust worthy and accountable. Now I can be arrogant, moody, sarcastic and pedantic but I am all of those things above and it has nothing to do with worship of any god. Again we have someone saying this how things are because this is how I think things are.

For Space Monkey's sake Yaya even, despite telling me that no one should be judged because only God can know someone's inner workings, tells us why Impy feels the way he does. Its slightly mind numbing.

there's a quote from someone I can't remember that goes something along the lines of "I have found that people who are constantly seeking the truth are generally much more agreeable than those who think they have found it". I think there's something in that.

In all honesty there are times I would love to believe in something, to have that sense of reassurance but that's never going to happen as long as the notions we have don't stand up to a few simple questions.

And if I am wrong, and it's in someone's plan that I or anyone Ii know and care about get AIDS and die horribly, then even if there is some higher purpose that I am not aware of, that person/thing remains a c*** for not filling me in on the detail or picking such a piss poor bunch of prophets that they can't even get the party line right. Come on people - branding.

I really don’t think there is much getting away from the fact tat if God exists and has some kind of message, it is doing a pretty weak job of passing it on. Unless the message is “as a race bumble around disagreeing over what all this means, don’t question those in power too much and kill each other in large numbers over things that one would have thought really aren’t as important as a single individual life”.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international ... 61,00.html

If that’s the message ‘he’ is all over it.

and on that note I think I will have a cup of tea.

[Metal Vendetta]

How do you know all of this, did God tell you?

Not directly, but I have studied my religion and believe it to be true. I don't believe God would try us, give us reward or punishment, without proper guidance. So, in a way, I guess He has told me, though not by speaking to me.

"OK God, if I'm on the right path here, say nothing. Just say nothing at all."
*silence*



And out of all the possible religious "truths" in the universe, you've discovered the one that is actually is true? What are the chances of that?



I'm sorry, I shouldn't laugh.

[Bouncelot]

I will say that I believe that any person who does good, whether they believe in God or not, God knows it and rewards for it in some way. But certainly, its a two-way street. God can choose to punish as well for doing wrong.

Ok so if god knows good ppl from bad ppl then I dont need to worship him them - as he doesnt require worship and I see no need to remind myself of God.

If I can just lead my life being good, and if there is a God ill find out when I meet him (so to speak) - I dont need to worship him as he does not require worship, all he cares about is if I im good or bad, if I go to heaven or get punished everything else is beyond my controll.

I dont see the need in life to follow religon when the basic rule of thumb, and somthing i think u learn very early in life, is to be good to each other.
Life is full of dilemas but i still need no rule book because thats life...

The inevitable question here is: can you be good enough without God being involved in your life. My personal belief and experience is that I can't possibly be good enough just on my own effort. And I put a couple more reasons why I think that worship is good for you upthread. Plus I would say that by far the best, most fun, and most exciting thing in my life is my relationship with God and, also, the experience of worshipping Him.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

So you cant be good without God? - anyone else...

And what relationship do you have? you worship, he doesnt want it? kind of one way that. He doesnt listen to your worship - you are supposedly judged when u get to the pearly gates etc...
Can u not just be 'good' - seriously what do u think will happen without religion?, i find that so judgemental its wrong.

Someone quoted the Iraq war up there, well theres lots of ppl over there at the moment who have very special relationships with god, who worship everyday, and I dont think what they do could be deemed 'good' - pretty much evil would be more accurate.

So, failing to see how this works?

[Yaya]

Why is it that whenever I discuss things of a spiritual nature with people, they think I am telling them how they should believe?

I am telling you how I believe. Nothing more.

I am telling you why I believe the way I do.

I'm not sitting here trying to impose my thoughts, feelings, or ideas on others. For you your belief, and for me mine. Read it above.

You think I'm wrong. Do I not have the same right to think that you are wrong too?

Let's not play by double standards here. If you want to criticize my beliefs, then I should be given the same opportunity to criticize your disbeliefs.

Sheesh. You'd think I'm going around bitch slapping everyone.

That I am certain about my belief should not be construed as an attack on others. If its my certainty that irks you, then for ****s sake, don't listen to me.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

I think its the ''''''suggestion'''''' that your a better person due to religon.

You know, im more good then non religous ppl because I wirship this thing that doesnt want to be worshiped.

Im a good person I cannot belive that I would be a better person by worshiping somthing that doesnt want to be worshiped - if he doesnt want my worship ill just carry on good, but thats not good enough.

that doesnt make sense, and the reason it doesnt is because its a story full of holes - its so human.

[Yaya]

I think its the ''''''suggestion'''''' that your a better person due to religon.

Again, "better person, worse person" is a judgement left to the Creator. Hell man, I don't even know you. I never suggested I was better than anyone else. Only that I believe in God and justice. If God deems me to be a better person than you in the end, then I am better than you. And if He deems that you are a better person than I, than most certainly you are. Judgement of one's soul is not for humans to decide. Also, when I talk about what I think good is, it by no means that I am like that. I have lied. I have cheated. I have hurt others. I have been selfish. Etc, etc, etc. I only speak about what I feel the concept of "good" is as defined by the Creator, not that I fit the mold of someone good.

Im a good person I cannot belive that I would be a better person by worshiping somthing that doesnt want to be worshiped - if he doesnt want my worship ill just carry on good, but thats not good enough.

You can't believe it because you don't believe in God to begin with. Creation is not proof enough for you, as it is for me, that God exists. If i did not believe in God, I'm sure I would come to the same skeptical conclusion that you do about worship. I would probably view it as a waste of time, as you do. But that is where your mindset and mine part ways. If one believes in a God as I do, than every thought, every action follows a certain path. If one doesn't believe in a God, than every thought, every action follows a different path. And each of us will view the other with great skepticism, and from the vibes I get from many about me here, even cynicism.

that doesnt make sense, and the reason it doesnt is because its a story full of holes - its so human.

If you believe man created the concept of God, then of course the story will be filled with holes. Its a human construct, and humankind is imperfect. But for the God-believing, there are no holes. Only inadeqacies in human knowledge, mysteries whose answers lie with the Creator alone. There need not be an explanation to every question for one to believe. That is what faith is. Its deriving that God exists from the evidence of Creation, and that all questions have answers, though we may never know them.

A child being taught not to touch something dangerous need not know every facet of it to believe it is dangerous. A hot stove, for example. The child need not know how the stove turns on, to what temperature it is set, whether it heats via electrical current or gas combustion, etc. Is this childs idea of the dangerous nature of a hot stove "filled with holes"? Only holes in knowledge, but none in belief that the stove can burn.

[sprunkner]

I don't know what to say to all this. (But I'm going to say it anyway!) I spent my entire life, until the last few months, as a member of a faith that was extremely literalist and dogmatic. Mormonism really does have an explanation for everything... kind of like Yaya's attempts to answer everyone's questions.

What bothers me is that 'answers to everything' are always based on premises that that person or that faith have decided are true.

so essentially the answer, no matter how wordy it is, is always 'because I say so'.

People can point, for example, to the Bible as a source of truth, but they are the ones who decide to give it credence therefore all that is essentially being said is "this is the truth because I think it is'.

of course that begs the question why I bother questioning people who adopt such a mentality who will happily infer one illogical thing from another and then state it as if it were obvious fact (e.g. the existence of God must mean there is an afterlife, when one n no way logically infers the other) , but to be honest it fascinates and worries me in equal measure. Its a bit like picking a scab in some ways.

Although some things just irritate me, like statements that intimate that its 'remembering' God that makes us honest, trust worthy and accountable. Now I can be arrogant, moody, sarcastic and pedantic but I am all of those things above and it has nothing to do with worship of any god. Again we have someone saying this how things are because this is how I think things are.

For Space Monkey's sake Yaya even, despite telling me that no one should be judged because only God can know someone's inner workings, tells us why Impy feels the way he does. Its slightly mind numbing.

there's a quote from someone I can't remember that goes something along the lines of "I have found that people who are constantly seeking the truth are generally much more agreeable than those who think they have found it". I think there's something in that.

In all honesty there are times I would love to believe in something, to have that sense of reassurance but that's never going to happen as long as the notions we have don't stand up to a few simple questions.

And if I am wrong, and it's in someone's plan that I or anyone Ii know and care about get AIDS and die horribly, then even if there is some higher purpose that I am not aware of, that person/thing remains a c*** for not filling me in on the detail or picking such a piss poor bunch of prophets that they can't even get the party line right. Come on people - branding.

I really don’t think there is much getting away from the fact tat if God exists and has some kind of message, it is doing a pretty weak job of passing it on. Unless the message is “as a race bumble around disagreeing over what all this means, don’t question those in power too much and kill each other in large numbers over things that one would have thought really aren’t as important as a single individual life”.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international ... 61,00.html

If that’s the message ‘he’ is all over it.

and on that note I think I will have a cup of tea.

I'm starting to think that irony is the best evidence for the existence of God. For example, I no longer have any theological objections to drinking alcohol. But, since I've had a severe intolerance to wheat and barley my entire life, I STILL can't have a beer.

[Professor Smooth]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCdT9dfrb-Q

Nicked from the the other thread. Fox News Lady was AWESOME...but that's really not what an anchorwoman's supposed to do...

[Bouncelot]

So you cant be good without God? - anyone else...

Well, there is this little thing called original sin. But leaving aside that, saying that God enables me to be good doesn't mean that someone without God can't be good, merely that I would be an awful lot worse without God.

And what relationship do you have? you worship, he doesnt want it? kind of one way that. He doesnt listen to your worship - you are supposedly judged when u get to the pearly gates etc...

Where do you get that God doesn't care about me worshipping Him, or even that He doesn't listen. God very often speaks to me whilst I'm worshipping Him.

Can u not just be 'good' - seriously what do u think will happen without religion?, i find that so judgemental its wrong.

I fail to see where there's anything judgemental there. I'm saying that God helps me to be better than I would otherwise be. Where's the judgementalism there? I think basically that you and me have a worldview clash. Things that are almost instinctive parts of the way I see the world are things that you can't get your head around and/or vice versa. I can quote example after example of the more obvious changes that God has made in the lives of people I know. I can also see plenty of cases of more subtle changes that God has made in the lives of people I know. All of these have been positive changes, and knowing the people I seriously doubt that those changes would have happened any other way.

[Yaya]

So you cant be good without God? - anyone else...

Well, there is this little thing called original sin. But leaving aside that,

Well, I have to disagree there. I don't believe that human beings are born as sinners. How can an infant be a sinner when he or she isn't even self aware? Intention is what makes an action right or wrong.

Hence my disbelief that baptism is a method of salvation. The idea that this alone will save one from facing justice for their wrong actions, well, I don't believe this. I believe in God, but still I feel that I must be good to others, treat others fairly, give others their due, and most importantly of all, seek forgiveness of God. Accepting Jesus does not "let one off the hook" so to speak in facing justice from wrongdoing.

saying that God enables me to be good doesn't mean that someone without God can't be good, merely that I would be an awful lot worse without God.

I know that the Christian religion states that not accepting Jesus as the Lord leads to hell. Now if hell is for bad people, then those who don't accept Jesus as the Lord are necessarily bad by your belief, no?

Again, my definition of good or bad, your definition of good or bad, or anyone elses definition of good or bad will mean nothing in the sight of the Creator who is the Definer. If one believes in God, then one believes He is the Definer of good and bad, and by His criteria will everyone be judged. The question comes down to "what do you believe God has defined for us?"

Where do you get that God doesn't care about me worshipping Him, or even that He doesn't listen

It's not that He does not care or doesn't listen. He simply does not need our worship to maintain His magnificence.

think basically that you and me have a worldview clash. Things that are almost instinctive parts of the way I see the world are things that you can't get your head around and/or vice versa

That's what I've been saying. It starts with the question "Do you believe in a God or not?" The answer to that question really defines your outlook, philosophy, and approach to life. A believer in God and a disbeliever in God follow completely different thought processes in how they live their life. To argue or bicker is fruitless between these two very different kinds of people. Since when has an argument every been one in this kind of discussion? It never leads anywhere except with both parties shaking their heads and walking away.

[KingMob]

Seems like a good topic to note that religious marches rule!

The other day, a couple hundred people of Faith A, Column B decided to spend the almost the entire day from 8 in the morning until teatime marching back and forth around every street in my neighbourhood, having a jolly good time waving their flags, being as stentorian as possible, stomping along in time to their extremely noisy marching band and letting everyone who lives in the neighbourhood know how disapproving of 'us' they are and how great it is to be in their special club.
They then went to the local park and took it over totally, having a jolly old munch-munch and another listen to their fabulously lound band, before heading off to their homes (in entirely seperate parts of the city...parts that never see large disruptive crowds of people stomping around making things unpleasant, incidentally) leaving behind a complete mess, lots of aching ears, only two arrests this time, of course a greater understanding between people who adhere to different faiths* and a thorough sense of approval, interest and surging belief in their faith amidst all the residents who just, you know, happen to live in the area and don't actually belong to a particular faith*.

This is because my neighbourhood is in part of the city that is mildly historically associated with Faith A, Column A, and some old (and therefore awesomely awesome, forever relevant and beyond the possibility of change) compact made between leading figures of Faith A, Column B and leading representatives of the august civic bodies in charge - who completely and totally coincidentally also happened to be members of Faith A, Colum B - says that it is a rockingly good idea for it to happen every so often.
Hooray for peaceful demonstrations of religious beliefs that surely do nothing but spread the good word about the good things religion does and religious people do and how great being in that special club is and the super day-trips you get, and how they aren't actually designed and viewed as a big way of saying IN YOUR FACE THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE IN MY GOD that don't actually upset and massively inconvienece a whole neighbourhood, increase the crime rate, waste public resources in terms of police, clean-up crews and delayed transport, increase intolerance, cause sectarian violence, scare children and old people and stop me from having a kip, a trip to the park with the dog in the sun that I so rarely get to see and a luvverly peaceful weekend full of nothing but works dedicated to the betterment of humankind and improving my progress in GTA: San Andreas.


*okay, this one is not entirely true

*neither's this one, you got me

[Bouncelot]

So you cant be good without God? - anyone else...

Well, there is this little thing called original sin. But leaving aside that,

Well, I have to disagree there. I don't believe that human beings are born as sinners. How can an infant be a sinner when he or she isn't even self aware? Intention is what makes an action right or wrong.

There are plenty of different versions of Original Sin. You might be more comfortable with the version that portrays it as an inherent tendancy to sin than the version which says that everyone is born as a sinner.

Hence my disbelief that baptism is a method of salvation. The idea that this alone will save one from facing justice for their wrong actions, well, I don't believe this. I believe in God, but still I feel that I must be good to others, treat others fairly, give others their due, and most importantly of all, seek forgiveness of God. Accepting Jesus does not "let one off the hook" so to speak in facing justice from wrongdoing.

The New Testament portrays baptism as happening after conversion rather than before, so I'd agree with you on that point. And as for accepting Jesus "letting you off the hook" I'd say that genuinely accepting Jesus will lead to a change in behaviour and attitudes.

saying that God enables me to be good doesn't mean that someone without God can't be good, merely that I would be an awful lot worse without God.

I know that the Christian religion states that not accepting Jesus as the Lord leads to hell. Now if hell is for bad people, then those who don't accept Jesus as the Lord are necessarily bad by your belief, no?

Actually, by my belief, even people who do accept Jesus as Lord are necessarily bad. But the point I was making is that Christianity makes someone a better person by either Christian or general Western standards of "good person" in contrast to Impy's assertion that religion is irrelevant to whether someone is a good person or not.

Again, my definition of good or bad, your definition of good or bad, or anyone elses definition of good or bad will mean nothing in the sight of the Creator who is the Definer. If one believes in God, then one believes He is the Definer of good and bad, and by His criteria will everyone be judged. The question comes down to "what do you believe God has defined for us?"

True. God is clearly the only person in a position to make absolute judgements on what is good and what is bad.

Where do you get that God doesn't care about me worshipping Him, or even that He doesn't listen

It's not that He does not care or doesn't listen. He simply does not need our worship to maintain His magnificence.

So where did Impy get the idea from? I was, after all, responding to his post where he said exactly that.

think basically that you and me have a worldview clash. Things that are almost instinctive parts of the way I see the world are things that you can't get your head around and/or vice versa

That's what I've been saying. It starts with the question "Do you believe in a God or not?" The answer to that question really defines your outlook, philosophy, and approach to life. A believer in God and a disbeliever in God follow completely different thought processes in how they live their life. To argue or bicker is fruitless between these two very different kinds of people. Since when has an argument every been one in this kind of discussion? It never leads anywhere except with both parties shaking their heads and walking away.

It can potentially lead to one or both parties better understanding the other's point of view, which can sometimes lead to a different attitude towards others who share that point of view.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

Just to be clear Yaya said that god doesnt require worship, which confuses me as to why you would worship somthing that doesnt need it.

I cannot understand why you need to worship somthing when worship doesnt do anything at all?

It might make u feel better but then so does choclate so im a bit lost on this aspect.