I like comics, How 'bout you?

[Brendocon]

I nearly picked up the first issue of Ultimates 3 the other day... but then remembered that it's been scripted by somebody who can't write, with art by somebody who can't draw. So I just picked up the new issue of Buffy, a pack of Robot Heroes and made a swift exit.

[Best First]

i think saying Joe Mad can't draw is total balls to be honest. You balls talker.

But Ultimates 3 was total sh*tfest nontheless.

[Brendocon]

I was going solely by the cover. Which seems to have been drawn by somebody who thinks that people are, like, square. Or something.

[Best First]

in fainess, the colouring is gah! icky

HOWEVER this picture is 9 shades of awesome burger:



http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/ ... i?id=12561

[sprunkner]

And his coat is brown!

[Best First]

OMFG.

Like, seriously.

i mean come on.

How can anyone think that was a good idea?

How does that not totally balls things up?

Oh! Lets play "Guess Which Stupid Retcon" kids.

One More What Now? Spoilers below:







I mean come on - its actually worse than i thought it was gonna be. Not only did they sh*t on the marriage and peter's role in Civil War, but they bought back ****ing Harry!

Oh, but its ok because Jimmy Q has a well thought out arguement:

"its more fun with harry in it"

yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay

best thing to come out of it so far is this post on the CBR forums:

Just some random quotes from Joe Q directly copied from the published interview:
"Sure, how much time you got? ;-)
"...I've littered throughout the series, especially the last issue. ;-)
"...the book is so much more fun with Harry in it. ;-)
"...this interview's over. ;-) "

What's with all the little 'winkies'?

At the top of the interview it's explained that Jonah "...CBR Executive Producer Jonah Weiland sat down for a lengthy chat with Joe Quesada..."

"Sat down", that would imply they were in the same room as each other while this conversation took place. So how did Joe Q get all those cute little 'winkies' into his responses?

I imagine the conversation went a bit like this:
Joe: Sure, how much time you got? Winkie
Jonah: ...um, sorry?
Joe: I said, how much time you got? Winkie!
Jonah: Did you just call me Winkie? Because, you know, that's not a very cool nickname or anything...
Joe: No, no! You're not 'Winkie'! I'm saying 'winkie' at the end of sentences because that makes what I say ironic or sarcastic, I think they mean the same thing... or something.
Jonah: 'Winkie', as in those text based emoticons? You're actually saying them... out loud?
Joe: Oh yeah! I saw them on the internet. It really frees a person up to be funny without relying on, you know, the English language or the audiences' intelligence to understand you're only messin' around!
Jonah: ...ah-ha...
Joe: All the hip young kids are using 'winkies' these days! Look at the 'net sometime and you'll see. It's cool! And I'm cool!
Jonah: Really?
Joe: Hey I just brought back Harry Freakin' Osborn, how outrageously cool is that?
Jonah: ...
Joe: What?
Jonah: I'm waiting for you to say 'winkie'.

[Brendocon]

Can Marvel bring back my two dead Grandads? I think my life would be much more fun with them.

[sprunkner]

I am so afraid to read this issue.

So they retconned Civil War and now no one knows his identity.

They retconned the marriage.

And... Harry? So Norman and Harry are back now? Wasn't it bad enough when they retconned Norman?

I've been reading Spidey comics since 1989, and he's been married the whole time. Bloody hell. I like Spidey as a married man. This is la-a-a-ame. Brand New Day gets one issue and then I stick with Ultimate.

[Best First]

well, this is the thing - Harrys back, so what does that mean in terms of Norman? If Harry was never dead (ugh) then is Norman still a crazy guy in charge of the T-bolts?

what about all the other Goblin related characters?

Was Harry ever the Goblin?

And are we just basically just going to see the same stories over again but a bit different (which is already done so well in Ultimate that... sigh).

Civil War is not specifically retconned but no one knows his identity, the marriage never happened and Harry seems to have just come back from a long vacatiob. Oh and Harry and Flash seem to be pals.

Oh, and, probably the best bit, Mephisto explicitly states that if they agree to this he gets one over on God as their love is so meant to be that it is essentially divine... and they still say yes! to save an old women who (in the real world) probably only have a few years left anyway! They screw over God!

With great power mumble mumble mumble, eh?

And all because Joe Queseda thinks the only way Spidey can be good is apparently for Pete to be single and Harry to be in it.

I think the biggest thing is - what the heck does this mean for the rest of the marvel universe? I nean it now has a hole it doesn't it?

[Brendocon]

Well... if we retcon Civil War, doesn't that essentially make the last year's worth of regular universe Marvel comics utterly pointless?

That shows absolutely no contempt for the readership...

At least it answers how they bring Cap back.

[The Last Autobot]

I think the biggest thing is - what the heck does this mean for the rest of the marvel universe? I nean it now has a hole it doesn't it?

I was talking the same exact thing with a friend. Spidey has been in contact with every damn character in the Marvel Universe and in almost every important crossover.

So what now?

[Shanti418]

SPIDEY CAPTAIN MESSIAH SPOILERS











Getting rid of a Spider Marriage by Deus Ex Mephisto is one thing.

Retconning every shred of character and plot development post JRSR's run is Clone Saga x2.

Spectacular #200 (Death of Harry Osborn) was one of the best Spidey comics ever. period.

In Joe Q's main defense of the storyline in that interview, the whole "Two Fan Opinions" thing, he completly SIDESTEPS Marvel Adventures Spidey and Ultimate Spidey, which has, and will contiue to offer unmarried Peter stories.

Not to mention the complete JOKE it makes SM Loves MJ.

How the F do you fit Civil War into Spidey never unmasking? Who's side was he on? Yes, how does Norman spontaneously remember that his son isn't dead? Does Venom cease to exist since he was created in the 90s? Does Black Cat have a blank spot in her head as to why she's not dating Spider Man? Are the New Avengers mindwiped as to Peter's past life AND the fact that he hasn't used webshooters in years?

The continuity problems are infinity and beyond.

Another thing: This outcome only confirms that JMS's personal peak on his run, The Other, was a pointless, crappy waste of time that was retconned before it even really mattered.

I'm a Babylon 5 fanboy, and I love most of JMS's run on ASM, but between the past 12 issues of ASM and being immersed in watching BSG for the first time from the start on DVDs, I think it's time that JMS and I spent some time apart. Not in a Mephisto mindwipes JMS's existance from the Earth yet I still own Babylon 5 episodes and JMS's children continue to live type way, but a seperation nonetheless. He may have been on a short leash with Joe Q when it came to this one, but the past year as a whole has left a bitter, bitter taste in my mouth that no amount of spot on characterization can wash out.

In Good News, Bucky is going to be the New Cap and Messiah Complex still kicks ass.

So X fans, clear some s*** up for me. What does the "M" tattoo mean? Does this mean that the Madrox clone is somehow Bishop? Or do all mutants from Bishop's timeline have that M? It seemed to be not that case since Madrox was the only one with that particular tattoo at the prison. Is Bishop's timeline seperate from Cable's? Are they from different futures, and therefore have different objectives?

[Hound]

I thought the M branding was just for mutants held in the concentration camps?

Messiah Complex is indeed excellent and feels like it is building up to something significant.

All we need now is for Marvel to retcon it in a few yearst time

Loving the Cyclops action too.

[Professor Smooth]

OK, I don't want to go all fanboy, but One More Day seriously pissed me off. I know Spider-Man's only a fictional character, but I honestly want to see physical harm done to Joe Quesada over what he's done to said fictional character. That doesn't make any sense, and it goes against all logic, but I am hoping against hope that somebody sticks him at the next big comic book convention. I hope somebody kicks his dog.

I edited that. I didn't originally type "kick." That's how pissed off I am.

Now, here's where I go all entitlement. I've been reading Spider-Man for 15 years. When I started reading Spider-Man, he was a role-model for my 10-year-old self. He was an adult that had made a good life out of the pile of crap that he'd been handed. As I grew up, I was able to identify with the character. I understand that some people identified with young Peter Parker and grew WITH the character, but I'd wager that most of those people aren't still reading the book. I'm sure that there are still a few people who've been reading Spidey for 30 or 40 years, but those people are obviously not the norm. I grew to see a lot of myself in Spider-Man. Everyone does. What am I supposed to see when I read Spider-Man now (a moot point, as I'm not going to)? Myself years ago?

Here is where I go all fanboy. Damn near everything in the Marvel Universe is tied to Spider-Man's marriage. All of the current Avengers stuff (and Civil War stuff, etc) is tied to the marriage. The entire Marvel Universe would be fundamentally changed by the marriage disappearing. At least when Superboy punched a wall, the whole DC universe changed to reflect those changes. Remember Spectacular Spider-Man 200? Where Harry is all set to kill Peter but MJ talks him out of it and Harry dies saving him? How the hell does what happened in OMD reflect THAT!?!

Joe Q is hell-bent on bringing in new readers. The problem is that, at this point, it's obvious that it's not going to happen. People don't care about comic books. Non fans are not going to become fans. The only people who can be expected to buy comics are people who were fans before they became obsolete. Look at the entertainment industry. You can watch any movie that's ever been filmed with a few mouse clicks and a Netflicks account. You can play any video game with a similar deal. Any CD? Same deal. Want a comic? Downloads and trades are easily available. Nobody is going to think that making a trip to a comic book store once a week for six months is a worthwhile investment of their time. "New Readers" are not going to accept a book that ships MONTHS late is an effective way to tell a story. The only way to sell more comics is to sell MORE of them to the CURRENT readers. In Joe Q's multiple failed attempts at bringing in new readers he's managed to slowly erode the number of people who were ALREADY buying the books.

Look at me. I was hooked to the point where I was spending the cash to have these books shipped to me every few weeks from the US to Japan. That's how big a supporter I was of Marvel in general and Spider-Man in particular. One More Day has driven ME away.

I somehow doubt this is the reaction to Joe Q wanted. I can see why JMS wanted his name taken off of the book.

[Ozz]

Remember Spectacular Spider-Man 200? Where Harry is all set to kill Peter but MJ talks him out of it and Harry dies saving him? How the hell does what happened in OMD reflect THAT!?!

It erases it from existence?

Did anybody else have the feeling while reading the party sequence that it's, like, happening in the 70s? It seeemed that people were younger, Peter was still a student, and all that. But it surely can't be set in the past. Or in an alternate universe (but it basically is). Idiotic.

So X fans, clear some s*** up for me. What does the "M" tattoo mean? Does this mean that the Madrox clone is somehow Bishop? Or do all mutants from Bishop's timeline have that M? It seemed to be not that case since Madrox was the only one with that particular tattoo at the prison. Is Bishop's timeline seperate from Cable's? Are they from different futures, and therefore have different objectives?

In Bishop's future mutants were branded with the tattoo. Madrox's dupe travelled to another alternate future, one of two new possible futures which were created after the child was born. So it's not the same future as the one Bishop comes from (in his reality X-Men were killed by Onslaught). It may be that in that future people had the same idea about branding. It might also be that Bishop (in the present) did something horrible (it was said that one mutant brought all of this on the rest of population) which led to mutants being locked in the camps and branded in exactly the same way like the traitor was to make them remember who is responsible or something.

Of course, it might not be Bishop who just shot Forge and Cable, but Mystique.

Bishop originally came from the end of 21st century and Cable from the 40th century, IIRC. So it's possible that it was the same timeline, but I doubt it.

Does what I wrote make at least a little sense?

[Best First]

to be honest i would suggest that Bishop's actions suggst that this is something to do with his timeline...

Messiah Complex is def awesome either way.

I love the way JQ thinks that what he has done doesn't rubbish continuity (see latest CBR interview...)

[Ozz]

Page from next chapter of Messiah Complex, don't open if you don't want to be spoiled.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/ ... view-5.jpg

[Best First]

ahahahahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.....

nice one.

Decided to drop Amazing. Ultimate only for me from now on.

worst case scenario i can buy the trades later on.

[sprunkner]

(Takes deep breath)

I'm trying to write a review about this, but it's honestly affected me so much that I'm not sure how I can.

It would help if it wasn't written and drawn well. The Clone Saga was an out-of-character abortion, but the comic had been going downhill for a while at that point. While JMS is far from the high point he started out on, I still think his storytelling has been decent, especially in the face of editorial mandate after editorial mandate. "Back in Black" was entirely focused around that damn costume, but he made it work. The Civil War crossovers were decent given the little time allowed for Peter to make his decision. And I've always liked Quesada's art.

Plus I really liked the beginning of One More Day. I really liked the idea that it was all driving Peter crazy because it would be his fault.

But.

The whole reason the Clone Saga didn't work was one simple thing: lack of heroism. Heroes put others first. No matter how devastating their personal lives might be--and Spider-Man's was always devastating--when others are in danger they put it behind them.

There was no way the information that he was a clone would have undone Peter Parker. Not after all he'd been through. Besides the fact that he was a scientist who would have been perfectly aware that being a clone was no more significant than being an identical twin, he would have jumped back into action the second a villain like the Jackal showed his crazy face. Save people first, agonize later. That has always been the rule for Peter Parker.

It was clear from ASM #545 that Peter was not being a hero. He was being selfish. Saving Aunt May was not about responsibility. He was ducking responsibility. Forgetting, once again, the ethical problems of making a deal with the devil, Peter acted only to save himself from future pain and guilt. Because somehow he's become twisted over the years from the pain and guilt of losing Uncle Ben and Gwen Stacy, to the point that it's made him completely insane and willing to do anything to avoid that guilt?

Why the hell would we want to keep reading about such a character? What does Marvel think they can do to redeem this? This is not Spider-Man. He used to be an arrogant but haunted teenager striving to do the right thing against his temper. I'm all for guilt and pain--couldn't have Buffy Season 3 without it--but the idea that a story can somehow be satisfying with the character visibly letting themselves be destroyed by that pain and guilt--that's the kind of setup that begs for a Hamlet-style tragic fall.

Peter's avoidance of responsibility for his mistakes is, I think, beautifully written in this storyarc. It's obvious that the most important thing to Joe Quesada and JMS's Spider-Man is not Aunt May or Mary Jane, but, as his daughter says in the third part, his own pain. I like that JMS was ballsy enough to point it out. I don't like that Mary Jane went along with it, and told Peter to "be my hero." He's not being anyone's hero but himself. MJ is ruining her life to undo Peter's mistakes--mistakes that could be undone any number of different ways. As Peter points out in tthe first issue of the arc, he could have gone to the Shi'ar's bloody home planet, or an alternate dimension, and let things settle down.

Or he could have ponied up, been a man, and accepted his problems. We all have guilt and pain to deal with by the time we hit 25, or 30, and it's not going to go away once we grow up--which I know Quesada is determined not to let Peter do, but damn it, he was a married professional when I was ******* nine years old and I'm still reading the ******* comics, so let at least a little bit of reality through!

Performing character abortion doesn't make the comic full of possibilities. In terms of story, the only thing that can happen to Peter is a major fall, because he's been undone by his own flaw. For all his talk about responsibility, Peter's avoided responsibility in this story. He's given in to his own version of Hamlet's indecisiveness, Macbeth's ambition, Lear's pride and Othello's jealousy.

I think Straczynski knew very well what this said in terms of story. This said that Spider-Man had destroyed himself as completely as any tragic character. The only thing left, in Shakespearian terms, would be the body count.

This isn't a new start. This is the greatest mistake Spider-Man has ever made as a character.

I believe JMS wrote it that way for a purpose. There was no other way to do it with that editorial mandate. Same as "Sins Past," they didn't publish the story he wanted to write. I'm starting to think that if JMS could have written what he wanted to in "Sins Past," "The Other," "Civil War" and "Back in Black" as well as "One More Day," those arcs would have been a lot more like "Coming Home" and "Revelations."

I hope some writer in the future has the balls to address this and make Spidey pay for being so ******* selfish. Forget editorial stuff and writerly stuff for a minute. The character wimped out. It was better written and better motivated than the "Clone Saga," but Peter wimped out. He failed. The hero failed. He did something selfish and mean and totally unheroic.

Why, all other concerns aside, should Marvel expect us to read comics about him?

[Professor Smooth]

At least this saves me from having to page 15 dollars an issue to import Spider-Man books to Japan. JMS sent a message to Newsarama to set the record straight. Apparently, he'd been misquoted by Quesada in one of the MANY "No, it's not a bad idea, stick around and see what we do with it because I'm so damn clever" interviews that he's been doing.

Here's the whole interview: http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=141756

Here's the highlight, or, as I like to call it, "JMS throwing Quesada under the bus."

To explain, here's the conversation I had with Marvel, in sum:

"So what does Mephisto do?" I ask.

"He makes everybody forget Peter's Spider-Man."

"Uh, huh. So Aunt May's still in the hospital --"

"No, he saves Aunt May."

"But if all he does is save her life and make everybody forget he's Spidey, she still has a scar on her midsection."

"No, he makes that go away too."

"Okay...:

"Then he wakes up in her house."

"The house that was burned down?"

"Right."

"But how --"

"Mephisto undoes that as well."

"Okay. And the guys who shot at Peter and May and were killed, they're alive too? Mephisto can bring guys back from the dead?"

"It's all part of the spell."

"And Doc Strange can't tell?"

"No,"

"And the newspaper articles? News footage?"

"Joe, it's been forgotten."

"I'm just asking is that stuff there or not there?"

"Not there. And Peter's web shooters are back."

"Is this the same spell or a different spell?"

"Same spell."

"How does making people forget he's Spidey bring back his web shooters?"

"It's magic, okay?"

"I see. And Harry's back."

"Right."

"And Mephisto does this too."

"Yep."

"So is Harry back from the dead, or has he been alive? If they ask him, hey Harry, what did you do last summer, will he remember? And the year before? And the year before? If he says they all went on a picnic two years ago, will they remember it?"

"It's --"

"Because if he now has a life he remembers, if he's not back from the dead, then you've changed the continuity you said you didn't want to change. Those are your only options: he was brought back from the dead, and there's a grave, and people remember him dying --"

"Mephisto changes THEIR memories too."

"-- or he's effectively been alive as far as our characters know, so he's been alive all along, so either way as far as our characters are concerned, continuity's been violated going back to 1971.

How do you explain that?"

"It's magic, we don't have to explain it."

And that's the part I had a real problem with, maybe the single biggest problem. There's this notion that magic fixes everything. It doesn't. "It's magic, we don't have to explain it." Well, actually, yes, you do. Magic has to have rules. And this is clearly not just a case of one spell making everybody forget he's Spidey...suddenly you're bringing back the dead, undoing wounds, erasing records, reinstating web shooters, on and on and on.

[Best First]

i don't really agree about the quality of the writing, but i agree entirely with other sentiments.

I think, if you buy a comic for long enouh, it becomes quite easy to view the characters almost as friends (which i think goes a long way towards explaining people's reactions when character's don'tact as they expect or want). In this case though i'd extend the metaphor to the point that Peter has done something that means i don't want to be his friend any more. He has gone from a guy i looked up to to someone i cannot relate or aspire to. Not only has he done the wrong thing for the wrong reasons, but the way its currently set up there is no way back.

its been fascinating watch this play out over various sites - i can only hope where people are saying they are done with the book they actually mean it, as that is the only thing that will change this.

sigh.

[sprunkner]

Brand New Day preview.

http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fusea ... =343976793

Decent writing. Decent art. I still hate Peter's guts.

[Ozz]

http://blog.newsarama.com/2008/01/04/is ... of-comics/

Har!

What age was (supposed to be) Parker when OMD hit?

[Yaya]

So thankful I don't keep up with Spidey.

Anyway, anybody else enjoying Annihilation:Conquest series as much as I am? Particularly Nova.

[Shanti418]

Peter has done something that means i don't want to be his friend any more. He has gone from a guy i looked up to to someone i cannot relate or aspire to. Not only has he done the wrong thing for the wrong reasons, but the way its currently set up there is no way back.

Q to the F to the T. Peter sacrificed his marriage to avoid guilt (incredibly SLIGHT guilt considering May HERSELF told Peter to let her go), and he made a deal with the Devil, two tings I don't think my friends would do.

It's just like the Clone Saga. There, even though a lot of people were upset about Ben replacing Peter, people were MORE upset that Peter was being written as a aggressive, out of control, violent, wife hitting psychopath in order to facilitate the change. Here, a lot of people are mad about the dissolution of the marriage, but the stain it leaves on Peter's character AND the lazy "magic" writing are the real salts in the wound.

I've dropped ASM. At this point, the only question is "Am I a big enough loser to stand in front of the LCS with a placard once ASM #546 comes out imploring people to drop it as well?"

I REALLY hope that the crazy internet peoples (ourselves included) aren't alone on this one.

[sprunkner]

It seem like a good rule. I can has cheezburger?

[EDIT] I need to stop leaving unfinished posts around where Chrissy can complete them.

It's a good rule of thumb for the Marvel U (one with many, many exceptions) to give a year-and-a-half continuity for every five years in reality. That makes Spidey, starting at fifteen, around twenty-seven and married for six years.

Franklin Richards, born around 1970, should be twelve-ish, but he's been frozen around ten. That also means that Avengers Disassembled, Civil War and World War Hulk happened within weeks of each other, so, as I said, exceptions... And of course, as time goes on, it will slow more, since the year-and-a-half to five years rule can't apply to DC unless Superman and Batman are supposed to be in their mid-40s. Which means Franklin is stuck as a ten-year-old. And Spidey will never get older than twenty-eight, if he's even that old at the moment. But I say twenty-seven, eight (mostly eight so I don't feel weird being older than Spider-Man).

[Ozz]

Had to happen:

http://www.shortpacked.com/d/20080107.html

[Best First]

Kicked it off my standing order on sat - i feel like a man.

But i no longer feel like Spider-men. Boo.

Other stuff:

End League is pretty decent fun, although having bought the first issue i am now half tempted to wait for the trades.

Buffy ist gut, ya (read the letters page as well, crikey)

Thunderbolts was mint, if a bit brief after what seemed like a big wait - especially Venom and Norman - who i believe both may be being driven mad due to thinking about where they now fit in continuity.

Messiah Complex continues to kick balls, although bishop seemed ot give a poor account of himself agaisnt other characters with energy based powers...

Also: Fear the Lobster's Claw!

[Ozz]

although bishop seemed ot give a poor account of himself agaisnt other characters with energy based powers...

I don't know if he can absorb Sunfire's flame and it was established before that he can't use his powers against Gambit.

I gotta catch up with Hellboy/BPRD stuff.

Anybody read Ellis' Ultimates 3... I mean Ultimate Human?

[Best First]

although bishop seemed ot give a poor account of himself agaisnt other characters with energy based powers...

I don't know if he can absorb Sunfire's flame and it was established before that he can't use his powers against Gambit.

hmm, must have missed that - what was the reason given? Shouldn't have though he should have a problem with heat tho - its about as basic an energy source as you can get

read Ellis' Ultimates 3... I mean Ultimate Human?

ah, if only that were true - yeah it was pretty good. Massive twist on Wisdom eh? Only slight doubt is that Ellis's Stark seems a little forced whenever he talks about booze.