Muslim Outrage

[Metal Vendetta]

I have a question for the americans; is this big news over there?

Well, they could look it up in the history books if they wanted. It's all there, the Dutch, German, Spanish and British settlers, the Anglo-Dutch wars, the war of Independence, the founding of the Constitution, the Bill of Rights and all that...It's not exactly news but it's the sort of stuff they should know.

[Obfleur]

I was actually wondering if the whole Denmark VS Muslims was a big news item - but your answer works as well

[Best First]

Eventually almost everyone on the show was comparing him to Nick Griffin and not in a favourable way.

how would you compare him to Griffin in a favourable way?

"quite spry for a fat c***'?

[Metal Vendetta]

Eventually almost everyone on the show was comparing him to Nick Griffin and not in a favourable way.

how would you compare him to Griffin in a favourable way?

Something along the lines of "a bit like Nick Griffin, but not as much of a wanker", I suppose.

[Best First]

made me laugh.

i have a cartoon protest: The comic was way better.

[Dead Head]

Mickey's wildy overrated anyway.

[Denyer]

If you look at it from their pov, they're protecting an aspect of their convictions. Some consider it blasphemous. Some might be just spoiling for a fight, but who can say for sure?

Is it relevant why an individual or group threatens violence towards a nation (or other group of people united only by fact of birth or location), when that "why" is an abstract concept such as blasphemy?

[Bouncelot]

To answer the first question, christianity isn't a religion of a whole nation anymore. But, in many arabic states, Islam is. You'll be hard pressed to find any atheists there. It's the way of life to be a Muslim, people grow up being firm believers of their faith.

In most Muslim countries, you can be executed for choosing to convert from Islam to another religion. I think this fact is highly relevant to understanding the Muslim over-reaction to the cartoons.

And, about the Danmark thing, it's like in the middle ages - they think a ruler (being king or prime minister) is responsible for all the people of his country. Which is not a bad idea at all, but hopelessly naive nowdays. But, the average muslim sees the cartoon on the media and thinks about Danish/european/white people in general, not just that cartoonist. it's giving us all a bad rep.

Muslim countries are usually (but not always) authoritarian dictatorships - their governments can control their press to a degree that would be unthinkable in the West, which probably leads their populations to think that government control of the press is normal - hence targeting the relevant European governments.

There are no limits to freedom of the press. That's why it's FREEDOM.

It's not FREEDOM if there are limits. If you even TRY to suggest that maybe we should have freedom of the press...unless it hurts somebody's feelings, I get the feeling that you will immediately be laughed off of this board.

If freedom has no limits, then does having a free press mean that the press are free to murder someone in the course of writing a story? In m opinion, freedom only makes sense as a concept when applied to a specific (and hence limited) frame of reference. The UK press could be considered fairly free with respect to what they print, but there are definite legal limits (libel is illegal, for example).

Freedom of speech also doesn't mean that it's always a good idea to exercise it in every circumstance. There are some things which are probably best left unsaid (though having seen the cartoons in question, I have to say that they are remarkably mild in terms of satirical content).

If you find all this as stupid as I do, check this site out and skip to the bottom portion (past the historical stuff):

http://info2us.dk/muhammed/

There's nothing at the link. Have the protestors managed to get it shut down?

[Professor Smooth]

Read the whole artilce. If this were done by The Onion, it's be flawless. Unfortunately...it's not.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,18 ... l?from=rss



IRAN'S largest selling newspaper announced today it was holding a contest on cartoons of the Holocaust in response to the publishing in European papers of caricatures of the Prophet Mohammed.
"It will be an international cartoon contest about the Holocaust," said Farid Mortazavi, the graphics editor for Hamshahri newspaper - which is published by Teheran's conservative municipality.

He said the plan was to turn the tables on the assertion that newspapers can print offensive material in the name of freedom of expression.

"The Western papers printed these sacrilegious cartoons on the pretext of freedom of expression, so let's see if they mean what they say and also print these Holocaust cartoons," he said.

Iran's fiercely anti-Israeli regime is supportive of so-called Holocaust revisionist historians, who maintain the systematic slaughter by the Nazis of mainland Europe's Jews as well as other groups during World War II has been either invented or exaggerated.

Iran's hardline President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad prompted international anger when he dismissed the systematic slaughter by the Nazis of mainland Europe's Jews as a "myth" used to justify the creation of Israel.

Advertisement:
Mr Mortazavi said tomorrow's edition of the paper will invite cartoonists to enter the competition, with "private individuals" offering gold coins to the best 12 artists - the same number of cartoons that appeared in the Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten.

Last week, the Iranian foreign ministry also invited British Prime Minister Tony Blair to Teheran to take part in a planned conference on the Holocaust, even though the idea has been branded by Mr Blair as "shocking, ridiculous, stupid".

Mr Blair also said Mr Ahmadinejad "should come and see the evidence of the Holocaust himself in the countries of Europe", to which Iran responded by saying it was willing to send a team of "independent investigators".

[Denyer]

Expect a lack of violent riots, thus proving an important point.

I'd also expect several papers to publish these with detailed rebuttals and historical sources alongside -- which is how disapproval and a discussion should be handled.

[Professor Smooth]

Expect a lack of violent riots, thus proving an important point.

I'd also expect several papers to publish these with detailed rebuttals and historical sources alongside -- which is how disapproval and a discussion should be handled.

Well said.

Their line of thinking must have gone something like this, "You think you can just mock our religion? You think that the steps many of us have taken to show our outrage are more violent than anyone else's? Let's see how YOU like it! We'll publish cartoons saying that millions of Jews were never killed and how it's just a huge lie to justify the creation of Israel! Let's see what happens THEN, eh?"

To which the civilized world says, "Alright. You do that. Then we'll publish them along with indisputable evidence that shows that you're wrong."

Besides, what are the jews going to do about it? Protest products from Iran? I'm pretty sure that if VOWING TO DESTROY ISRAEL, didn't send them into an uproar, a cartoon isn't going to have much sway on how they feel....

[Best First]

OK, this is getting silly:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/cartoonprotes ... 74,00.html

The furious international row over the publication of cartoons satirising the prophet Muhammad intensified today when Iran's supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, claimed it was an Israeli conspiracy motivated by anger over Hamas's win in the Palestinian elections.

er... they were published about 3 months before that happened.

Speaking to Iranian air force personnel, Ayatollah Khamenei said the cartoons were a scandal, particularly as they came "from those who champion civilisation and free expression".

eh?

as an aside - is there any detail as to what the article taht asscoiated teh acrtoon said anywhere?

[Metal Vendetta]

A Muslim newspaper has already published a cartoon of Hitler and Anne Frank in bed together. Shocking, eh?

...er, not really. See, I subscribe to www.b3ta.com and anything, absolutely anything is fair game on there. That website was taking the piss out of the 7/7 bombings literally before the dust had settled. I've seen stuff about Jesus, Mohammed, Anne Frank, Goatse, Barry Scott, Gary Glitter, Hitler, Pol Pot, Zippy from Rainbow...sometimes all in the same animation having a gang bang. This stuff doesn't shock anyone these days. The only things I've seen on the internet that have really shocked me in recent years were:

A) Muslim extemists hacking off someone's head
B) American soldiers shooting people from a helicopter
C) Pictures of dead bodies from Iraq (the gore for porn thing)

You know, taking pictures of actual violence where people die? The important stuff? Who cares about cartoons?

...

How do you draw a cartoon showing that the holocaust didn't happen, anyway? White space with the title "Holocaust"?

[Impactor returns 2.0]

you cant reason with religon...

I think every paper in the world should print front pages with cartoons depicting different religous gods or whatever on the front covers, doing whatever seems most offensive to that said religon.

Then, when all the other religons just go "yeah, whatever" - the muslims Religon will look **** faced, and if they dont, [composite word including 'f*ck'] em.

Lets go to war, yay!

[Professor Smooth]

I just want to clarify something. I do not believe that all muslims are radicals and violent. I don't even believe that a majority are. Though, I have read some pretty convincing thoughts proving the last statement to be the contrary. A little anectdote I read said, "You know those muslims that live down the street from you and attend Mosque at the little place nearby? The Muslims that wave you at the grocery store and would never dream of taking up arms to defend an imagined slight against their religion? Those are the radical muslims."

I wonder if this is a case of the vocal minority making the silent majority look arse (similar to loud Republicans in the US) or if this really is as ****** up as it seems.

[Metal Vendetta]

I wonder if this is a case of the vocal minority making the silent majority look arse (similar to loud Republicans in the US) or if this really is as ****** up as it seems.

The guy I work with told me today as he went to pray that he was going to ask Allah to make sure Abu Hamza got deported. I think that says it all, really.

[Bouncelot]

I just want to clarify something. I do not believe that all muslims are radicals and violent. I don't even believe that a majority are. Though, I have read some pretty convincing thoughts proving the last statement to be the contrary. A little anectdote I read said, "You know those muslims that live down the street from you and attend Mosque at the little place nearby? The Muslims that wave you at the grocery store and would never dream of taking up arms to defend an imagined slight against their religion? Those are the radical muslims."

I wonder if this is a case of the vocal minority making the silent majority look arse (similar to loud Republicans in the US) or if this really is as ****** up as it seems.

Fundamentalist/extremist/violent Muslims are certianly a tiny minority amongst those that live in the West. However, they're much more numerous (though not the majority) in Muslim countries.

[Lucifer]

Please allow me to introduce myself. I'm a man of wealth and taste. I've been around for a long, long time and stole many a man's soul and faith.

Pleased to meet you. hope you guess my name. It's over there on the left if you need a hint.

[Gekigengar]

made me laugh.

i have a cartoon protest: The comic was way better.

Your heads will roll if you make fun of people from Orlando!

Who cares... this city I live in, can't drive for **** if there was a toilet in front of them.

[Metal Vendetta]

Your heads will roll if you make fun of people from Orlando!

Who cares... this city I live in, can't drive for **** if there was a toilet in front of them.

Walt Disney was born in southern Spain, near Mojacar

Actually that might not be true, but there's no record of him being born in America, and all the records from Mojacar were lost in the civil war, so I can't claim it as fact, but it's a local legend there, and his mother was from there, it's a question of whether he was born before or after she emigrated...

[saysadie]

Is that has sad for you as it is for me?

It was at one point and would still be if I still gave a damn. Individuals matter more to me.

Is it relevant why an individual or group threatens violence towards a nation (or other group of people united only by fact of birth or location), when that "why" is an abstract concept such as blasphemy?

To them, yes.

Somewhere I heard that not killing innocent people was also an aspect of their religion.

Good for you. But it has nothing to do with what I was talking about, not really. [well, it does, but it doesn't].

To people who think I'm defending this: I'm not. Least, I don't think I am... I don't care either way, actually. There's always more than one way to view a situation however. I'm more mindful of that fact than I am anything else.

[Denyer]

Everything else... er, long and rambling screed here:

http://tfarchive.com/community/showthre ... post478697

To them, yes.

Mmm-hmm. Do we allow it to be relevant to ourselves? i.e. To what degree is compromise necessary, sensible or permissible? What must we do, what should we do, and what will lead to worst case scenarios (setting precedents, etc.)?

[Best First]

To them, yes.

Mmm-hmm. Do we allow it to be relevant to ourselves? i.e. To what degree is compromise necessary, sensible or permissible? What must we do, what should we do, and what will lead to worst case scenarios (setting precedents, etc.)?

empathy is always a useful trait, even if to only assure yourslf that your rejection of an other opinion is valid.

Not bothering to understand why people act they way they do, or how representative some peoples actuons are of an enture group, as jboyler seesm to think is justified in doing because some peopel have pissed him off, is never going to lead toward a constructive resolution.

of course it takes two to tango...

[jboyler]

jboyler seesm to think is justified in doing because some peopel have pissed him off, is never going to lead toward a constructive resolution.

I'll admit that this pisses me off. It makes me furious.

It makes me furious because I'm likely to be deployed to Iraq within three weeks. And if I'm not deployed in March, I certainly will go in autumn. And regardless of whether I go or not, my wife definitely will.

So what happens when some kid who otherwise wouldn't give a **** gets riled up by some loudmouth Islamic facist, ends up joining the cause, and blows up my wife?

I guarantee you no one's going to protest that. 'Cept me.

-J

[Obfleur]

I'm guessing that you are in the army?

I cant understand that people in the army complain about being placed in Iraq, etc.
Dont they explain that to you when you sign up? "You might get killed"?

[Best First]

jboyler seesm to think is justified in doing because some peopel have pissed him off, is never going to lead toward a constructive resolution.

I'll admit that this pisses me off. It makes me furious.

It makes me furious because I'm likely to be deployed to Iraq within three weeks. And if I'm not deployed in March, I certainly will go in autumn. And regardless of whether I go or not, my wife definitely will.

So what happens when some kid who otherwise wouldn't give a **** gets riled up by some loudmouth Islamic facist, ends up joining the cause, and blows up my wife?

I guarantee you no one's going to protest that. 'Cept me.

-J

sorry, i forgot this was all about you.

I think you will find there is a strong anti war sentiment amongst some on these boards and many in the western world,. there is probably greater consensus on the deplorable use of terror as a polictial medium (if less agreement on what constitutes it) so i would say that whenever something happens to someone in iraq there is quite a lot of protest, comment and call for answers actually.

Also maybe you should look a bit deeper into an isue rather than unquestioningly accepting that it may be that easy for someone to stir up hate.

Sorry but i have little time for people who only care about issues when they affact them, and then take the scewed point of view that that is the most importnat aspact of the issue.

tregardless of your self obsessive approach to this topic i hope both you and your wife say safe and healthy wherever you are.

[BB Shockwave]

jboyler seesm to think is justified in doing because some peopel have pissed him off, is never going to lead toward a constructive resolution.

I'll admit that this pisses me off. It makes me furious.

It makes me furious because I'm likely to be deployed to Iraq within three weeks. And if I'm not deployed in March, I certainly will go in autumn. And regardless of whether I go or not, my wife definitely will.

So what happens when some kid who otherwise wouldn't give a **** gets riled up by some loudmouth Islamic facist, ends up joining the cause, and blows up my wife?

I guarantee you no one's going to protest that. 'Cept me.

-J

Well, umm... why did you join the army then? I mean, USA is practically at war with Iraq, Afganisthan and Iran's coming next soon. Every sane man/woman gets out of active service at times like this...

[Denyer]

I guarantee you no one's going to protest that.

Actually, we're pretty vocal in condemnation of the individual sending you there.

[jboyler]

Well, umm... why did you join the army then?

I joined the Army with the (perhaps naive) idea that I could go make a difference in the world and that I could give oppressed people a chance. Now I believe that regardless of whether our war was right or wrong we still need to finish it, and to quit and leave Iraq now would be a grave mistake. I have friends over there right now, and I hope that if I go I can help them out and hopefully we can all go home a little bit faster.

As for the problem of me and my wife going, well, you have to understand that even though I've volunteered to go and I'm willing to go, that doesn't mean that I want to go and it does not make me immune to feeling some trepidation or being afraid for the safety of my family. It just means that I'm willing to put all that aside because I think there's something bigger out there that's worth the hardship.

I'm sorry that I gave you all the idea that this is just about me and my family. It's also about my friends and it's about all the people in Iraq and Afghanistan who want to be free. It's about Denmark and most of Europe which has been targetted by terrorists for years but have chosen to play their games instead of ending it. And after what I read this morning about attacks in Afghanistan, it looks like it's going to be about all of America.

I would like everyone to be free and happy, and I support the right of these protestors to be able to say whatever they want. I just wish people would notice the hypocrisy and selfishness of being mad about a cartoon when there are so many more horrible things in the world. If you want to call me selfish for bringing it up, go ahead. I don't really care right now.

-J

[BB Shockwave]

It was a noble idea to think you could make a difference, and I respect you for going even though you don't want to. But what did you hope an army could make right in the world? The US may call it protective presence, but it's still an occupation force.