Muslim Outrage

[The Last Autobot]

The principles under which America was founded makes this country the greatest in the world, IMO.

"This beautiful country that we inherited... well, actually we stole it from the mexicans and the indians".
Yeah, it's great.

NOT REALLY!

They stole it from the mexicans (a part) and killed almost all the indians and then stole it (the greater part).

Well if Usa is the root/father of all evils. Then England is the grandfather.

What is clear to me -I dont know the rest- is that if you treat the others (a single person, people, country or countries) like they dont worth a dime unless they suit your purposes then expet a lot of trouble.

[Best First]

The principles under which America was founded makes this country the greatest in the world, IMO.

any country who's electorte believe they are best will never achieve that moniker in any meaningful way.

Anyway - the Hitchen's article is a good read, but i think he comes close to making the key point that Ramadan (for me) does, that the threats and hysteria need to be stopped so debate can engage in a more meaningful manner.

as for feeling threatened, whilst that constitutes a reason for espousing to more prejudicial and generalised opinions, it doesn't constitute a good one.

[Metal Vendetta]

Anyway - the Hitchen's article is a good read, but i think he comes close to making the key point that Ramadan (for me) does, that the threats and hysteria need to be stopped so debate can engage in a more meaningful manner.

as for feeling threatened, whilst that constitutes a reason for espousing to more prejudicial and generalised opinions, it doesn't constitute a good one.

I dunno, how many people on here have actually talked to Muslim people about this issue? I spent a good two hours on Friday discussing it with "the other side". And yes, sometimes I do feel threatened by "the Muslims" but like they say it's not paranoia if they really are after you - the Koran has page after page of nasty things that will happen to non-believers, most of which involve fire and pain and death. So yeah, I am a bit worried by that kind of thing, and I think I will continue to be so.

Ramadan's right that the threats and hysteria have to stop but I can't see that happening any time soon while the Muslim viewpoint is as unchangeable as it is - that's the problem with "holy" and "sacred", you see, they don't offer any scope for compromise.

[Yaya]

"This beautiful country that we inherited... well, actually we stole it from the mexicans and the indians".
Yeah, it's great.

Hey, I think its the worst thing any group of people could do to another, so I'm with you there.

By principles, I mean the idea of freedom of speech and religion, the principles of government espoused and signed into law by the Founding Fathers, who were from your part of the world.

I have a friend who lives in Great Britian who feels that it is superior to America in the freedom it gives to its citizens (i.e. no Patriot Act, etc.) This is likely true.

[Bouncelot]

Nowhere in that list does it suggest that all Muslims are murderous vigilantes. It simply highlights the fact that Muslims do not speak out as vociferously against wholesale atrocities that other Muslims have committed than they have against a non-Muslim drawing a little picture.

Alternatively, when they do speak out against such things, they don't get much in the way of media coverage.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

Interesting to see that man who was holding the placard calling to behad ppl made a very public apolagy on TV this afternoon.
It takes alot of bottle to do come back and apolagise in ful too the no-muslim community and to other muslims for tarnishing the name.

Richard Madely posed an interesting question earlier today when he asked how come muslims are so sensitive compare to say other religons like christianity?
For example, depicting say Jesus throwing a nuke at Iraq or somthing whilst distastefull would not provoke the same angry scenes being seen around the world by Muslims. most christians would probably just dismiss it out of hand, yet some Muslims feel the need to take to the streets? I wonder why this is.

Also, another point I heard was in relation to Muslim communitys asking the president of Denmark to apolagise for the cartoon in question, consider that the cartoon was drawn by one man, and the decsion to print it made by a few others to print it, how come a handfull of ppl now represent a country.
SUrely if anyone should say sorry it should be the editor and cartoonist?

World war 1 started pretty easily too.

[Metal Vendetta]

By principles, I mean the idea of freedom of speech and religion, the principles of government espoused and signed into law by the Founding Fathers, who were from your part of the world.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the Constitution signed in 1787, four years after 1783 when an American-French alliance won the War of Independence against the British? Let's see, Founding Fathers...

*googles*

George Washington, born in Pope's Creek, Virginia
Benjamin Franklin, born in Boston, Massachusetts
James Madison, born in Port Conway, Virginia
Roger Sherman, born in Newton, Massachusetts
Alexander Hamilton, born on the island of Nevis, West Indies
John Jay, born in New York
James Marshall, born in Lambertville, New Jersey
Gouverneur Morris, born in New York
Thomas Jefferson, born in Albemarle County, Virginia
John Adams, born in Braintree, Massachusetts
Patrick Henry, born in Hanover County, Virginia
John Hancock, born in Braintree, Massachusetts

Did I miss any, or is that all of them?

And honestly, do you just make this crap up as you go along? You need to have some sort of system for checking your posts before you hit submit because seriously, I'm just making you look silly now. I haven't even touched on the fact that these great principles only applied to white people because black people counted as property. Great country, eh?

[edit] ...oh, while I'm at it, I should probably point out that freedom of speech and freedom of religion were not included in the Founding Fathers' Constitution - it wasn't until 1791 that the Bill of Rights (the first 10 amendments to the Constitution of which the first concerns free speech and religion) was added, largely at the behest of George Mason, born in Fairfax County, Virginia, and put before Congress by James Madison.

[Metal Vendetta]

Interesting to see that man who was holding the placard calling to behad ppl made a very public apolagy on TV this afternoon.
It takes alot of bottle to do come back and apolagise in ful too the no-muslim community and to other muslims for tarnishing the name.

Actually I'm well impressed by that. Fair play.

Alternatively, when they do speak out against such things, they don't get much in the way of media coverage.

See above, see also the huge amount of coverage that was given over to members of the Muslim Association of Britain and other groups denouncing 7/7, 9/11 - but I don't recall Muslims taking to the streets with placards and banners after either of those atrocities, do you?

[BB Shockwave]

Richard Madely posed an interesting question earlier today when he asked how come muslims are so sensitive compare to say other religons like christianity?
For example, depicting say Jesus throwing a nuke at Iraq or somthing whilst distastefull would not provoke the same angry scenes being seen around the world by Muslims. most christians would probably just dismiss it out of hand, yet some Muslims feel the need to take to the streets? I wonder why this is.

Also, another point I heard was in relation to Muslim communitys asking the president of Denmark to apolagise for the cartoon in question, consider that the cartoon was drawn by one man, and the decsion to print it made by a few others to print it, how come a handfull of ppl now represent a country.
SUrely if anyone should say sorry it should be the editor and cartoonist?

World war 1 started pretty easily too.

To answer the first question, christianity isn't a religion of a whole nation anymore. But, in many arabic states, Islam is. You'll be hard pressed to find any atheists there. It's the way of life to be a Muslim, people grow up being firm believers of their faith.

And, about the Danmark thing, it's like in the middle ages - they think a ruler (being king or prime minister) is responsible for all the people of his country. Which is not a bad idea at all, but hopelessly naive nowdays. But, the average muslim sees the cartoon on the media and thinks about Danish/european/white people in general, not just that cartoonist. it's giving us all a bad rep.

[Professor Smooth]

All this over a political cartoon. I'm having trouble grasping this.

[Yaya]

[edit] ...oh, while I'm at it, I should probably point out that freedom of speech and freedom of religion were not included in the Founding Fathers' Constitution - it wasn't until 1791 that the Bill of Rights (the first 10 amendments to the Constitution of which the first concerns free speech and religion) was added, largely at the behest of George Mason, born in Fairfax County, Virginia, and put before Congress by James Madison.

Is not the Bill of Rights a creation of the Founding Fathers? George Mason and James Madison are considered founding fathers here. Sure, it might not have initially been made into law, but eventually the Bill of Rights became part of the Constitution. You're getting too technical here.

Obviously, some need things spelled out for some. Next time, I'll bring out the finger puppets for ya, okay?

George Washington, born in Pope's Creek, Virginia
Benjamin Franklin, born in Boston, Massachusetts
James Madison, born in Port Conway, Virginia
Roger Sherman, born in Newton, Massachusetts
Alexander Hamilton, born on the island of Nevis, West Indies
John Jay, born in New York
James Marshall, born in Lambertville, New Jersey
Gouverneur Morris, born in New York
Thomas Jefferson, born in Albemarle County, Virginia
John Adams, born in Braintree, Massachusetts
Patrick Henry, born in Hanover County, Virginia
John Hancock, born in Braintree, Massachusetts

So, they were all born in America. I don't get your point. America spawned as a colony of Britian, of your land.

And honestly, do you just make this crap up as you go along?

Yes. I do.

You need to have some sort of system for checking your posts before you hit submit because seriously, I'm just making you look silly now

Really? Let's all laugh at Yaya.

I haven't even touched on the fact that these great principles only applied to white people because black people counted as property

Originally, and sadly, this was very true, until this century. Laws were refined and rewritten to be more just. Look, maybe you're mistaking me for someone blinded by patriotism, but I really am not. In fact, because I stand up for what is right and just, I take a lot of flak for it here. Nothing infuriates me more than the hypocrisy against the black man and the annihlation of the native American, and so on.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

I think the point is, your saying that your country was built on all these great values, but it wasnt, it was built on poor values, well documented, and its taken you along time to a few of them right.
No ones saying your crap now, but you cant say your best ever. its that attitude that turns the world against you.

[Yaya]

but you cant say your best ever. .

Far, far, from it.

[Yaya]

All this over a political cartoon. I'm having trouble grasping this.

Really, its about "what are the limits?"

[Professor Smooth]

All this over a political cartoon. I'm having trouble grasping this.

Really, its about "what are the limits?"

Limits to what?

[Yaya]

All this over a political cartoon. I'm having trouble grasping this.

Really, its about "what are the limits?"

Limits to what?

What are the limits to freedom of the press.

[Professor Smooth]

Really, its about "what are the limits?"

Limits to what?

What are the limits to freedom of the press.

There are no limits to freedom of the press. That's why it's FREEDOM.

It's not FREEDOM if there are limits. If you even TRY to suggest that maybe we should have freedom of the press...unless it hurts somebody's feelings, I get the feeling that you will immediately be laughed off of this board.

Here's what we've got here. People who are so offended by a CARTOON that they are burning down buildings and threatening people's lives. The problem is not with the CARTOON; the problem is with THE PEOPLE!

[jboyler]

Limits to what?

What are the limits to freedom of the press.

There are no limits to freedom of the press. That's why it's FREEDOM.

It's not FREEDOM if there are limits. If you even TRY to suggest that maybe we should have freedom of the press...unless it hurts somebody's feelings, I get the feeling that you will immediately be laughed off of this board.

Here's what we've got here. People who are so offended by a CARTOON that they are burning down buildings and threatening people's lives. The problem is not with the CARTOON; the problem is with THE PEOPLE!

I would like to add something to this. I really would.

But I can't.

As for these events not representing Muslims blah blah blah, well, I could give a **** less what they're protesting about. I really don't even care how they go about it. I wish they would be more civil, but the fact that they're not doesn't keep me up at night.

What gets me is that they choose to protest chicken**** but when their religion is hijacked by terrorists and violently fanatical extremists, they do nothing. If they're willing to attack embassies and innocents, why are they not willing to stand up to mass murderers and oppressive dictators?

-J

[Professor Smooth]

What are the limits to freedom of the press.

There are no limits to freedom of the press. That's why it's FREEDOM.

It's not FREEDOM if there are limits. If you even TRY to suggest that maybe we should have freedom of the press...unless it hurts somebody's feelings, I get the feeling that you will immediately be laughed off of this board.

Here's what we've got here. People who are so offended by a CARTOON that they are burning down buildings and threatening people's lives. The problem is not with the CARTOON; the problem is with THE PEOPLE!

I would like to add something to this. I really would.

But I can't.

You could try. It'd be fun! ANGRY FUN!

[saysadie]

the problem is with THE PEOPLE!

On both sides of the issue.

[Professor Smooth]

the problem is with THE PEOPLE!

On both sides of the issue.

Explain. I see how people are at fault for violently rioting againt the people of a nation because one guy drew a cartoon and a few others published it. I don't see how the people who drew/published it are at fault. At all. In ANY regard.

[saysadie]

the problem is with THE PEOPLE!

On both sides of the issue.

Explain. I see how people are at fault for violently rioting againt the people of a nation because one guy drew a cartoon and a few others published it. I don't see how the people who drew/published it are at fault. At all. In ANY regard.

I didn't say anyone was at fault. People are the problem, though. Cause and effect. In that respect such a reaction is hardly surprising given the nature of the religion/material and some people, as well. There's always someone imflammatory around just waiting for an oppertunity, however small, to light a fire under someone else, or something else. It doesn't matter if they started it or reacted.

This could eventually be a good thing. It might lead to a shared pov, or some form of understanding of the way different groups of people think. Or [the current and more likely, imo] it could be a very bad thing if the closemindedness continues.

[Professor Smooth]

This could eventually be a good thing. It might lead to a shared pov, or some form of understanding of the way different groups of people think. Or [the current and more likely, imo] it could be a very bad thing if the closemindedness continues.

If your group of people thinks it's alright to threaten the lives of people because one of their countrymen made a joke about them being violent, then there's definately SOME blame there. Some blame, boatload of irony.

[saysadie]

If your group of people thinks it's alright to threaten the lives of people because one of their countrymen made a joke about them being violent, then there's definately SOME blame there. Some blame, boatload of irony.

If you look at it from their pov, they're protecting an aspect of their convictions. Some consider it blasphemous. Some might be just spoiling for a fight, but who can say for sure?

The reaction doesn't come as much of a surprise to me, at any rate.

[Professor Smooth]

The reaction doesn't come as much of a surprise to me, at any rate.

Is that has sad for you as it is for me?

Where's Impy? This should be like tossing benzin on an inferno!

[jboyler]

If you look at it from their pov, they're protecting an aspect of their convictions.

Somewhere I heard that not killing innocent people was also an aspect of their religion.

-J

[Obfleur]

Man, I cant wait for the South Park episode of this.

[jboyler]

I think everybody should read this:
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editor ... danes_now/


If you find all this as stupid as I do, check this site out and skip to the bottom portion (past the historical stuff):

http://info2us.dk/muhammed/

-J

[Metal Vendetta]

Anyone see Newsnight last night? Besty's boy Ramadan was stunning, as were most people who joined the debate, and it gave me a great deal of hope that this can be sorted peacefully, in this country at least. The hardline Muslim guy who organised the protests, Chowdri, made a complete arse of himself, refusing to recognise women without their faces covered and even criticising Ramadan for not having a beard. Eventually almost everyone on the show was comparing him to Nick Griffin and not in a favourable way.

*sigh*

You're getting too technical here.

You say technical, I say factual. See, I actually know something about the history of America and what I don't know I look up. But then again you're never one to let the facts stand in the way of your opinion, are you?

Is not the Bill of Rights a creation of the Founding Fathers? George Mason and James Madison are considered founding fathers here. Sure, it might not have initially been made into law, but eventually the Bill of Rights became part of the Constitution.

Mmmm, yes, but you said it was "espoused and signed into law" by the founding fathers. It wasn't, it was presented to Congress by two of the founding fathers and some of it was ratified by Congress and made into law. Madison put 17 amendments before Congress, but only twelve were passed. It's a bit like me saying that King John created the Magna Carta.

So, they were all born in America. I don't get your point.

You said the founding fathers were all from our part of the world (actually you said it in response to 'Fleur, I think, which would imply they were from Sweden, but that's splitting hairs) and I pointed out that what you said was wrong - the founding fathers were all from America, apart from one dude who was born in the West Indies. My point is, what you typed was incorrect. If you are trying to back up your point with something that is incorrect, you will get shot down. Hang on, I'll show you how this works:

America spawned as a colony of Britian, of your land.

And that's why New York was called New Amsterdam for so long, is it? Named after Amsterdam, that famous British city. America started as a Dutch colony, it wasn't until a few wars later that the British took over. Oops, you got your facts wrong again. Do you know any history, or...

...do you just make this crap up as you go along?

Yes. I do.

It shows.

You need to have some sort of system for checking your posts before you hit submit because seriously, I'm just making you look silly now

Really? Let's all laugh at Yaya.

[Obfleur]

I have a question for the americans; is this big news over there?

Nice reply MV