I had no idea people in Britain were so religious?

Metal Vendetta · Post by **Metal Vendetta** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 2:42 pm

Bouncelot wrote:Feeding of the five thousand? A couple of weeks ago, a friend from church experienced something extremely similar during a day's work as a chef.

OMG I missed this. What, did it look like they were going to run out of fries, but someone found another box of them out back?

Miracles don't happen. If they did, they'd be on TV.

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 7:16 pm

Oh miracles... how can anyone with half a brain belive in stories from ppl who didnt understand didly squat that were written hundreds of years after the event happened. thats so silly.

Post by **Denyer** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 7:28 pm

Best First wrote:how does it point to the divine?

Trafficking with demons is a behead, burn and bury-at-crossroads offence, isn't it?

Yaya · Post by **Yaya** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 7:47 pm

Best First wrote: Why would a God who loves everyone equally.

I don't ascribe to this. I mean if God loved everyone equally, why send them to hell or punish them?

Miracles don't happen.

The fact that you spawned from two cells dividing millions of times is miracle enough for me if not for you. Something of infinite complexity happening seemingly on its own, regardless of whether or not a scientific explanation for it all exists, is to me no less miraculous a thing.

However, if by miraculous you mean paranormal, you only have to look as far as the black arts, black magic, Ouiji boards, etc today to know that things happen outside our ability to explain them rationally. I know perfectly sane people who have used the Ouiji board, for example, and have been brought to tears by fear of something happening beyond logical reasoning. Sometimes that sort of delving gives results, other times not, but clearly there is something beyond our physical world. This is in no way an argument for God's existence, merely an argument that things happen without earthly explanations that defy the physical principles of nature

Bouncelot · Post by **Bouncelot** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 7:47 pm

Metal Vendetta wrote:
Bouncelot wrote:Feeding of the five thousand? A couple of weeks ago, a friend from church experienced something extremely similar during a day's work as a chef.
OMG I missed this. What, did it look like they were going to run out of fries, but someone found another box of them out back?

Nope. They were down to their last loaf of bread, and he kept making toast, turned round, and they were still down to the same last loaf, kept making toast, turned round, and they were still down to the same last loaf etc.

Miracles don't happen. If they did, they'd be on TV.

But would they? If they don't happen to happen right in front of the cameras, then there's no pictures, hence no story.

Professor Smooth · Post by **Professor Smooth** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 8:04 pm

Yaya wrote: The fact that you spawned from two cells dividing millions of times is miracle enough for me if not for you.

That's not a miracle unless you're a sodding prat who knows nothing about basic human biology! It's easier to say "It's a mirace" than actually learning anything.

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 8:12 pm

Nope. They were down to their last loaf of bread, and he kept making toast, turned round, and they were still down to the same last loaf, kept making toast, turned round, and they were still down to the same last loaf etc.

What aload of bollocks, if u belive that ill belive that I have spent the night ******* god up the ass.

As for god loving everyone equally and sending some to hell, thats exactly why its bull - its human controll. nothing more nothing less. your all sheep.

Post by **Denyer** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 8:15 pm

Yaya wrote: if God loved everyone equally, why send them to hell or punish them?

Exactly. C'mon, you're almost there, the cogs are whirring away...

Universal salvation has typically been regarded as heresy by churches because, well, it's bad for recruitment. It also makes it a lot harder to tell people to fall in line "or else we might not be going to do something to you, but that guy with the Chain Lightning and Pillar Of Salt cast at 30th level is."

And also because we're vindictive bastards who derive great satisfaction from retribution, which is why our gods tend to as well.

It just isn't fair, say traditional religious folk.

Who are, remarkably enough, often the same people claiming that everyone's in like a shot if they repent and accept Babar the elephant (or a wise and peaceful prophet of your choice) as their personal saviour.

Personally I've got it boiled down to: do the best you can, because the world really sucks if people are horrible to each other, and don't worry, because a supreme being probably isn't a bastard, if it exists.

Yaya · Post by **Yaya** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 8:38 pm

Professor Smooth wrote: That's not a miracle unless you're a sodding prat who knows nothing about basic human biology! .

I have spent my life studying the biological sciences. As a physician, it is my life.

And I say to you that unless you're a sodding prat who knows nothing about basic human biology, you would find embryology an extraordinarily intricate and detailed phenomenon, quite miraculous in its complexity. Even in embryologic texts, the world miraculous has been used to describe its contents. Again, whether the scientific steps that occur from embryo to adult can be explained or not is irrelevent to me. It is no less a miracle to me and to many others when we step back and look at the wider scope of things.

Professor Smooth · Post by **Professor Smooth** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 8:49 pm

Yaya wrote:
Professor Smooth wrote: That's not a miracle unless you're a sodding prat who knows nothing about basic human biology! .
I have spent my life studying the biological sciences. As a physician, it is my life.

And I say to you that unless you're a sodding prat who knows nothing about basic human biology, you would find embryology an extraordinarily intricate and detailed phenomenon, quite miraculous in its complexity. Even in embryologic texts, the world miraculous has been used to describe its contents. Again, whether the scientific steps that occur from embryo to adult can be explained or not is irrelevent to me. It is no less a miracle to me and to many others when we step back and look at the wider scope of things.

This must go far beyond being a sodding prat, then. You know what causes these things to happen. You've studied it. And you still believe that an all-powerful invisible being is somehow involved.

Up until this point, I laughed at your miracles. Now, I'm laughing at you.

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 8:54 pm

My sister is a Doctor in Bioloagy and she can explain all of it using science.

Again, whether the scientific steps that occur from embryo to adult can be explained or not is irrelevent to me.

If some parts are irrelevent to you, and obviously the 'important' parts why bother studying it.

Thats like being a relgious person and picking out the bits you like and dismissing the bits you dont like.

Laughable. your belife system is based on sand.

Post by **Best First** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 9:00 pm

keep it civil kids.

Don't make me smite anyone.

Bouncelot · Post by **Bouncelot** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 9:10 pm

Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:
Nope. They were down to their last loaf of bread, and he kept making toast, turned round, and they were still down to the same last loaf, kept making toast, turned round, and they were still down to the same last loaf etc.
What aload of bollocks, if u belive that ill belive that I have spent the night ******* god up the ass.

So, someone who I know from experience to be honest and trustworthy tells me that something happened, and yet it is automatically "a load of bollocks"? Right

. I think this debate is becoming rather pointless and futile.

As for god loving everyone equally and sending some to hell, thats exactly why its bull - its human controll. nothing more nothing less. your all sheep.

Let's see if I can explain it for you. God has two major attritbutes - Holiness and Love. His holiness means that He cannot abide with sin - someone sinful cannot bear to be in His presence. Jesus' death on the cross provided a way for sin to be removed or covered over, so that humans can actually make it into heaven. However, if someone doesn't want to accept that, then God allows them to do so rather than forcing it on them. Hell is the result of refusing to accept Jesus taking away your sin. By rejecting God's offer of forgiveness for sin, you end up in a place where you live with the consequences of that sin. Hell certainly isn't something I've seen used as a way of controlling people.

Amnesia · Post by **Amnesia** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 9:21 pm

Best First wrote:Don't make me smite anyone.

I'm sorry, it's all my fault! Don't hurt them, oh mighty BF!

Pissin' Poonani · Post by **Pissin' Poonani** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 9:23 pm

Bouncelot wrote:
So, someone who I know from experience to be honest and trustworthy tells me that something happened, and yet it is automatically "a load of bollocks"? Right . I think this debate is becoming rather pointless and futile.

In all fairness though, some of the harshest and most painful betrayals are a result of the actions of those we considered to be honest and trust worthy.

Jesus and Judas, for one example-or did he always know not to trust him (I can't remember).

Post by **Best First** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 9:31 pm

Bouncelot wrote: Let's see if I can explain it for you. God has two major attritbutes - Holiness and Love. His holiness means that He cannot abide with sin - someone sinful cannot bear to be in His presence. Jesus' death on the cross provided a way for sin to be removed or covered over, so that humans can actually make it into heaven. However, if someone doesn't want to accept that, then God allows them to do so rather than forcing it on them. Hell is the result of refusing to accept Jesus taking away your sin. By rejecting God's offer of forgiveness for sin, you end up in a place where you live with the consequences of that sin. Hell certainly isn't something I've seen used as a way of controlling people.

in all honesty i'm not sure how you can type that and keep a straight face.

Hell is nothing but a tool for controlling people - how come it isn't mentioned at all in the old testament by the way? Its a threat to make people behave as a bunch of leaders want them to and transparently so.

And why does God, who is apparently perfect, create a system where he then has to send his son (who is also him) to die to allow humanity to buck the system that he has created? And why create a creature that has the potential to not exist in his presence? If god cannot bear sin, how can he create something with the potential to commit it, given that, as the creator, only he can define what sin is?

Did God not see this coming? If he didn't isn't the system unfair, given that he himself (who is obvioulsy better than us, being God) failed to anticipate it and therefore how the hell were we supposed to not fall foul? And if he did predict it (as you would think) why create it that way? it almost seems... cruel and vindicative, or as if the being in question is desperate for attention.

Why not signpost 'the choice' more clearly rather than, you know, creating extra toast? Why would anyone reject this choice if it was spelt out in clear terms and the reasons for taking it were clear?

In fact why assume heaven is better than hell? Why so trusting? What if its a trick and Heaven is actually an upmarket Cannibal Restuarant?

On top of that what is the point of these supposed miracles, given that you only need faith? I mean surely miracles are akin to an insult as its basically God saying, hmm, better give you some evidence, your faith seems a bit crap.

except the toast one, which is insulting but useful.

Anyway, if you'll excuse me i need to get back to my hobby of replacing loaves when people aren't looking.

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 9:36 pm

Bouncelot wrote:
So, someone who I know from experience to be honest and trustworthy tells me that something happened, and yet it is automatically "a load of bollocks"? Right . I think this debate is becoming rather pointless and futile.

Its complete and utter bollocks because not one miracle on earth has ever been proven by anyone ever. Including the church, you do know that the church sounds out investigation teams, and not one single mircale has even been proven as an 'act' of god. so if the very faith u belive in doesnt account any, and your mates making toast gag is the first one ever that news to me and your faith! wow! chances are now 0%.

As for it being toast, you have got to be kidding me, god makes toast, please...

just continuing from what BF said, if faith is what you need explain to me why 6 million very faithfull jews were allowed to die, but god wouldnt alow some homeless ppl to go without toast, can u not see how silly it sounds.

thats because its not real, its as real as the FSM.

Yaya · Post by **Yaya** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 9:39 pm

Professor Smooth wrote: You know what causes these things to happen. You've studied it. [/i].

I don't know scientifically speaking what causes all these things to happen. Not even a fraction of these things, in all likelihood. No one does. No matter how many questions are answered, there are an infinite number of unanswered questions that remain, and that's only within a single scientific field.

I'm sure there is a scientific explanation for how these things work the way they do.

If you can laugh at me, then laugh at most of the greatest scientists that ever lived, like Einstein and Newton. Scientists whose works you, in your pathetic argument against the possibility of a divinity, would in all likelihood quote as an argument in your favor. I mean, you will praise the works of such scientists and even quote lesser scientists of today in your argument against God's existence, yet throw out the fact that they themselves conclude that God exists.

Don't ever go around quoting Newton or Einstein, don't ever acknowledge their works. You would be the ultimate hypocrite if you did, because if you can laugh at me, you should laugh at them too, not praise them.

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 9:45 pm

actually, ill state again, my sister is a Doctor in Biology and she can explain what you have problems with.

Also Einstien couldnt explain certain factors, and thus refered to a devine power, Newton couldnt even explain what einstien new, and if you go further back pythagoras didnt know what Newton knows, they had to figure it out.

Science continues to explain what these 3 didnt know in thier respective eras, modern science continues to evolve almost every day explain forces that other scientists didnt know about.

The notion that because you cannot explain quantom string theory preciely yet means "oh there must be a god" then is the very reason religons were started when someone got confused over lightning.

Its a very shaky ground for you to base your entire belife system on. You dont even know what science cannot and can explain you are not a proffesoor in that area, so exactly what do you belive in?

You belive in god because some of the most complex bits of science cannot be explain, tell me, when each bit is explained, brick by brick year by year, does your faith decline at the same rate?

Yaya · Post by **Yaya** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 9:51 pm

Bouncelot wrote: Let's see if I can explain it for you. God has two major attritbutes - Holiness and Love. His holiness means that He cannot abide with sin - someone sinful cannot bear to be in His presence. Jesus' death on the cross provided a way for sin to be removed or covered over, so that humans can actually make it into heaven. However, if someone doesn't want to accept that, then God allows them to do so rather than forcing it on them. Hell is the result of refusing to accept Jesus taking away your sin. By rejecting God's offer of forgiveness for sin, you end up in a place where you live with the consequences of that sin. Hell certainly isn't something I've seen used as a way of controlling people.

I know I have enough antagonists amongnst the atheists here, but I have to disagree with you on your belief of God.

If Jesus is God, and God can't die, how could Jesus be God if he was crucified?

If Jesus is God, and God is perfect, then the attributes of Jesus define perfection. Thus being a women, for example, you are automatically inferior to men for being less like God.

If love is God's greatest attribute, then why create Hell? I have debated with Christians who have told me that Jesus loves me, yet I am destined for Hell based on my belief that Jesus is not God. If God loves me, He would not send me to Hell. Thus, God does not love everyone.

I believe God to be Just. For if a person commits murder, his being a Christian should not exempt him from punishment based on his belief in Jesus. The same crime is committed, yet a nonChristian will burn in Hell while a Christian will be "saved". This gives a Christian free license to commit any atrocity and not be held accountable for it. Is that justice? Is it justice that someone else pay for anothers crime i.e. die for anothers crimes? Would it have been proper for Jeffrey Dahmer's mother, no mattter how much she loved him, to die in his place for his crimes?

I respect your beliefs, I just disagree and fail to understand them.

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 9:52 pm

Do you know why you cant answer those questions, because its called a plot hole.

Oh and continue to ignore this.

My sister is a docotr and can answer that what you dont understand easily.

Man didnt know what what Newton new, newton didnt know what einstien new, Einstien didnt know what Hawkings new does not go anywhere to explaining god.

Each year as more of the science of the universe is explained does your faith in god decline, if u say it doesnt then u have just proven me right. and u cannot use science in your argument again.

Yaya · Post by **Yaya** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 10:04 pm

Impactor returns 2.0 wrote: You belive in god because some of the most complex bits of science cannot be explain

No.

You obviously either a) didn't read what I wrote, or b) didn't understand it. Let me say again, I believe that in all likelihood there is a scientific explanation for almost everything. We will uncover bit by bit with time.

I don't base my faith in God on the concept that there are questions out there without answers and will never be answered and so the answer must be "God". You missed my point.

In fact the more questions that get answered scieintfiically, the stronger my faith becomes and the more convinced I am. As our knowledge increases so does my fascination.

Science for me is one of the strongest confirmations of God. The more we find out, the more amazed I am at how it all came about, how it works.

The beauty of science excedes that of the arts, because I really feel, it is art in its finest form.

Post by **Denyer** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 10:22 pm

Best First wrote:how come it isn't mentioned at all in the old testament by the way?

Basically 'cause it's by a bunch of people who believed rather different things to the guys who wrote the books incorporated into the New (which is a bit more thoroughly weeded for dissenting voices -- literally, a bunch of people got together and decided to have an editing session in 397.) Those earlier texts don't incorporate the dualism creeping into later Christian thought and popularised with imagery of a literal hell, where devil-guy is set up as an opposite number.

It's a way of getting pantheism back into religion whilst slowly circling the question of an all-powerful and all-knowing monotheistic deity. Again, it's partly because people aren't that keen on being told they're inherently wicked, so we get the "devil made me do it" angle.

People (as a collective) can't resist transferrence of responsibility, whether it's to a benign god or a figurative creature of malice who leads them astray.

Yaya wrote:throw out the fact that they themselves conclude that God exists.

There's certainly no shortage of scientists and mathematicians with personal faiths -- though it tends to be personal faith rather than religion, probably because on the whole they'd rather not get lumped in with the bampots...

Yaya wrote:I'm sure there is a scientific explanation for how these things work the way they do.

I think you're going over a head or two by separating the how from the why. The 'how's are largely shared (except by last-Thursday-ists), it's the 'why's we might disagree on -- and, thankfully, it's much easier to do so peaceably than with people who are trying to filter everything back through a particular story in order to prop it up as a core of their faith.

Yaya wrote:Science['s] beauty [exceeds] that of art, because I really feel[] it is art.

Ouch. That sentence is painful, even tidied.

Simpler version: any categorical distinction between two things is irrelevant for purposes of considering them art.

Metal Vendetta · Post by **Metal Vendetta** » Wed Feb 01, 2006 10:36 am

Say, I've run out of bourbon biscuits, I don't suppose God could rustle up another packet while I'm not looking...?

...

It's a miracle!

Yaya wrote:However, if by miraculous you mean paranormal, you only have to look as far as the black arts, black magic, Ouiji boards, etc today to know that things happen outside our ability to explain them rationally. I know perfectly sane people who have used the Ouiji board, for example, and have been brought to tears by fear of something happening beyond logical reasoning.

Oh yeah, I'm totally convinced of the existence of the paranormal now. Wow. Ouiji boards, eh? Note you didn't say anything paranormal happened. You said they were brought to tears by the fear of something happening. So they have an imagination. As a kid I was terrified of werewolves and bigfoot coming up through my garden to kill me while I was in bed. It doesn't mean I seriously believed that the two fields behind my mom's house were capable of sustaining a population of lycanthropes and sasquatch.
Incidentally, I don't believe in the black arts either. If you sacrifice a chicken at midnight while deflowering a virgin and reciting the Lord's Prayer backwards the most you are going to get is a nice roast dinner and possibly an unwanted pregnancy. Magic is not real. Black magic is not real. Honestly, there should be a list of things that aren't real and all kids in schools should be made to learn it.

Yaya wrote:The fact that you spawned from two cells dividing millions of times is miracle enough for me if not for you.

Except that it's also happened to...well, every other living thing on this entire planet. Something of an "everyday miracle" then. Was it miraculous when my friend's cat gave birth to kittens or was it just that she got knocked up by a big black tom in the alley out back?

For me, miraculous would be that it happened once, totally unexpectedly, with no precedent or indication of how it happened. Since it's happened billions upon billions of times since the world began, I have to suspect that it's not exactly a miracle, more like the status quo. That's not to say it's not amazing, but let's face it, anyone can do it whether they believe in God or not. You can say "Isn't it incredible?" and I'll say yeah. But claiming that conception is a miracle is a bit much considering that it happens literally all the time everywhere, almost any living creature can do it and if it didn't happen we'd all die out and there wouldn't be anyone left to argue over it.

If you check http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=miracle you'll find:
mir-a-cle
n.
1. An event that appears inexplicable by the laws of nature and so is held to be supernatural in origin or an act of God

The laws of nature are all about conception - we're all equipped with our own "make a human" kit, and if you have sex, then you're likely to conceive. Conception and the development of the foetus are pretty much what the laws of nature are all about - aside from "virgin births" and there have been a few of those reported, not just the one you're used to hearing about - conception is probably the least miraculous event on the planet. By that definition it's more "miraculous" that we developed birth control pills that prevent conception, though we attribute that success to human scientists rather than supernatural intervention.

And once more for those who seem to be suffering from selective reading:
WHAT ABOUT THE NEANDERTHALS?

[edit] And since you brought up Newton, know that he did all of his work on gravity, forces etc. in his early years. He spent most of his career trying (unsuccessfully) to crack the secrets of alchemy and turn base metals into gold. So yeah, he believed in some weird stuff, *BUT* and this is the crucial part, I don't need to believe in God or alchemy to try out a couple of his formulae. They work* even if you don't believe in God. I don't recall ever having to include God in my school physics diagrams, but maybe that's because he's invisible and does absolutely nothing whatsoever.

*to a degree, Newtonian physical laws are an approximate model of the real world, and not 100% accurate.

Metal Vendetta · Post by **Metal Vendetta** » Wed Feb 01, 2006 11:46 am

Bouncelot wrote:So, someone who I know from experience to be honest and trustworthy tells me that something happened, and yet it is automatically "a load of bollocks"? Right . I think this debate is becoming rather pointless and futile.

Wait, someone at your church, who is "honest and trustworthy" told you about a miracle that happened to him personally, yet rivals the miracles performed by Jesus frickin' Christ the frickin' Son of God, and you believe him? What part of planet Gullible did you fall from? Are you in some kind of cult? Seriously, this is whacko stuff, you know. This isn't like Yaya's "I believe in something undefined but benevolent out there", which I can kind of understand but is fun to pick apart, you are seriously telling us that you believe that God magically created a few more slices of bread so your mate didn't have to walk to the shops to get a new loaf? If so, then you really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really need a reality check. Really. Like, right now.

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Wed Feb 01, 2006 1:52 pm

Yaya - you dont belive in anything really. your just scared of death and have taken the easy route out.

anyhows.
I bumped into a very old friend yesterday who travels the world looking into different religons, hes a big fan of gaia etc...

Right, we were talking about this very conversation we were having here and it dawned on myself that it wasnt so much the idea of God that anoys me but actually the way in which different religons percive god and single it out as there own.

Essentially, christianity for example paints a picture and so does budism etc.. they all percive god in a different ways.

I have a problem with religons like chrisanity which are full of plot holes, the worshping of a higher being and the general BS that surrounds them. Its the way each religon says that its 'there god', the way they try to control with the fear of god etc..
Its the shear dim-wittery that religons use to explain 'god' and the way they use god.

my friend is a spiritual person and explained to me his view of god, and if I was ever to belive in a view this is the only one I could except.

God is the known universe, it is in essence the life of everything, from the Universe, that lives and dies, to the enrgy that created it, to the smallest atom, to you and me. god isnt an it or a thing, its a way to refer to, and i like this bit, its the Life of everything in the Universe('s)

Religon perverts everything else. Religon is what I despise, its evil and twisted and manipulitive.

Metal Vendetta · Post by **Metal Vendetta** » Wed Feb 01, 2006 2:13 pm

Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:God is the known universe, it is in essence the life of everything, from the Universe, that lives and dies, to the enrgy that created it, to the smallest atom, to you and me. god isnt an it or a thing, its a way to refer to, and i like this bit, its the Life of everything in the Universe('s)

...

I can't see the point of this. If we assume that there are a number of living beings in the universe (and I'm fairly certain there are, as I've met some of them) then "God" is equal to the sum of all their lives? So you are taking something that exists (the sum of all the lives of all the living beings in the universe) and calling it God? Is that right? What's the point? Why not just take, say, the chair I'm sitting on and call it God? Same principle. It sounds like wishy-washy spiritualist nonsense to me. If everyone in the universe died apart from me and you, does that mean we would jointly be God? If I kill you, do I inherit the position?

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Wed Feb 01, 2006 2:19 pm

I think what he was trying to explain to me was that most religons cant even explain god themselves proerply, they try to paint god as a set of rules you must follow. he was saying that if there was a god, woudlnt god be everything? as apposed to an old wise man with a beared (not santa)

Metal Vendetta · Post by **Metal Vendetta** » Wed Feb 01, 2006 2:22 pm

Okay, so God is everything. That doesn't change my point of view in the slightest, since I already believe in everything. A rose by any other name is still a rose; the universe is still the universe, we'll just call it "God" from now on.

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Wed Feb 01, 2006 2:25 pm

Your right, it is spirtual wish-washyness. Its just a definition, and If I had to belive in one, it makes more sense then the god most religons lead me to try and accept exists.

Maybe it just that I like the idea of a star wars inspired concept