I had no idea people in Britain were so religious?

[The Last Autobot]

I know I'm going to regret getting involved in a religion-thread...

Well, to be frank Impy, I don't think I've ever seen people as negative to religion as on this board, anywhere. Least not anyone I've talked too.

And everybody I know is an atheist, so that's saying something.

And please people, anybody except me that's getting bloody bored and tired of these incessant, endless repetitive threads about religion??

No offense Preds, but if you don't like the subject matter of the topic, stay out of said topic. I'm not saying you're not right, hell, even I'm getting bored (as neither side is EVER going to get through to the other),.

Yes and well there is no way really. Even if God himself appear and tell anything I definitely think some would say is a trick or explain it somehow.

I think that if you are a believer (jew, muslim, christian or whatever) and that makes/or is related to you being a good or better person, so be it.

If you are an atheist and you are a good or better person because or related to it, so be it.

Saying that either side is wrong because of being an atheist/believer is not really that important.

Fanatism is a very dangerous approach to be taken in life. Fanatism in ANY thing.

[Professor Smooth]

The Last Autobot speaks wisely. I know that my life is rarely negatively effected by religious people. Granted, when they do interject themselves, it's usually quite memorable, but it does not happen all that often.

I suppose my real problem with when people with political power use their religon to make laws that apply to everyone.

[Yaya]

Even if God himself appear and tell anything I definitely think some would say is a trick or explain it somehow.

I really believe what you say here is the absolute truth and I couldn't agree with you more. Well said.


As far as this topic turning into one side bashing the other, I don't think that is in anyway a constructive thing. I didn't get into this discussion to convince anyone of anything, only to give my viewpoint on what and why I believe what I do.

[Best First]

Even if God himself appear and tell anything I definitely think some would say is a trick or explain it somehow.

he hasn't posted in ages anyway.

However in fairness that statement actually makes little sense, if God appeared surely he would be capable of convincing the beings he has created that he was him?

Can we just partition Buoncelot and Impy into a topic together and watch them dance round each other with equally unsupportabe statements?

"Religion is the worst thing ever because i say so"

"Religion is the best thing ever cos i say so"

yawn.

[sprunkner]

Let's say that in 2035, some world leader decided to pull some Holocaust type-stuff again. Only this time, he succeeded. He killed off everybody who was religious. Now, let's fast-forward to the year 2503. How is this looked upon? Is it still viewed as something terrible? Or is it looked at as the one morbid event that, given a couple hundred years to reflect, seemed to be a good thing?

Smooth, my friend, I want you to take a very careful look at this statement.

Is there any chance we will ever see the Holocaust, or the expulsion of the Palestinians, or the massive deaths of Native Americans, or the atrocities in Dharfour, Sudan, or 9/11, or the slaughter of Muslims and Jews during the Crusades, or the slaughter of Mormons in 1836 in Missouri, or the actions of Stalin and Mao against their people, as a good thing?

Wholesale genocidal slaughter is always wholesale genocidal slaughter. The more time passes, the more our shock and horror increases.

[Professor Smooth]

Is there any chance we will ever see the Holocaust, or the expulsion of the Palestinians, or the massive deaths of Native Americans, or the atrocities in Dharfour, Sudan, or 9/11, or the slaughter of Muslims and Jews during the Crusades, or the slaughter of Mormons in 1836 in Missouri, or the actions of Stalin and Mao against their people, as a good thing?

Wholesale genocidal slaughter is always wholesale genocidal slaughter. The more time passes, the more our shock and horror increases.

I hate to break this to you. I really really do, but there are a LOT of people, possibly even the majority of people in the US, that view the wholesale slaughter of Native Americans as justifed. This disgusts me, of course, but it's the truth.

This could be chalked up to ignorance more than anything. The US government's indian massacre isn't something that's taught to students until college in most schools.

[The Last Autobot]

Even if God himself appear and tell anything I definitely think some would say is a trick or explain it somehow.

he hasn't posted in ages anyway.

However in fairness that statement actually makes little sense, if God appeared surely he would be capable of convincing the beings he has created that he was him?

How long before somebody says its an illusion? Or that you were delusional? Or something of the like? He would/could hipothetically convince everybody He made us but that wouldnt make everybody a follower because of it.

Well each position has made their points as far as I can tell. And from reading them it definitely made me think a few things I didnt realize before.

[Best First]

Even if God himself appear and tell anything I definitely think some would say is a trick or explain it somehow.

he hasn't posted in ages anyway.

However in fairness that statement actually makes little sense, if God appeared surely he would be capable of convincing the beings he has created that he was him?

How long before somebody says its an illusion? Or that you were delusional? Or something of the like? He would/could hipothetically convince everybody He made us but that wouldnt make everybody a follower because of it.

not very all power then is he?

[sprunkner]

Or he prizes free will in his children above any other gift he could give.

[The Last Autobot]

not very all power then is he?

Maybe the other way around:....

Or he prizes free will in his children above any other gift he could give.

....Thats the thing that supposedly differentiates us from all the rest of the creation and would consequently show his power

[Yaya]

I hate to break this to you. I really really do, but there are a LOT of people, possibly even the majority of people in the US, that view the wholesale slaughter of Native Americans as justifed. This disgusts me, of course, but it's the truth.

You want to talk about something that can be twisted to further evil ends? Patriotism, like religion, can be and is all too often twisted to fufill greedy selfish desires.

It is true what you say, that many believe that because we now have the USA, the annihilation and massacre of the native Americans was okay and necessary. A blind eye is turned to this, and it is never taught in schools in this manner. Instead, what is taught is how they skinned the scalps of innocent cowboys and settlers. Its the same kind of propoganda ******** that we have today. In reality, the native Americans were a peaceful people, who honored their contracts, respected nature. Yet, they were losing their lands to the settlers. They defended themselves by fighting back, to which American history labels them not as self defenders, but as barbaric butchers that needed to be put in their place. Who's land was it? And who were the freedom fighters really? Sound familiar to something going on today, does it not?

We (the US) are at war with a nation, a poor nation, where most people just want to survive each day. In the name of patriotism and freedom, we bomb these people. Yet, in the past 100 years, we have put black people in chains. We have wiped out an entire race of people in the native Americans, who were a just and honest people, who were trusting in their dealings.

Hypocricy. ******* hypocrisy. All in the name of patriotism.

[Best First]

not very all power then is he?

Maybe the other way around:....

Or he prizes free will in his children above any other gift he could give.

....Thats the thing that supposedly differentiates us from all the rest of the creation and would consequently show his power

sorry, that just leads to yet more questions that don't have logical answers - if free will is so important why only give it to one species? And even if there is a choice why not make the choice clear? Why allow so much disinformation to exist? If free will is all important why intervene at all? Why the commandments? "You are free to act how you like but you should act like this because i say so" - that's not loving, that's being a **** parent. No wonder we are so dysfunctional as a race.

Which comes down one of my biggest issues - religion stops people from finding better, less devisive and less manipulatble answers.

[Professor Smooth]

I hate to break this to you. I really really do, but there are a LOT of people, possibly even the majority of people in the US, that view the wholesale slaughter of Native Americans as justifed. This disgusts me, of course, but it's the truth.

You want to talk about something that can be twisted to further evil ends? Patriotism, like religion, can be and is all too often twisted to fufill greedy selfish desires.

It is true what you say, that many believe that because we now have the USA, the annihilation and massacre of the native Americans was okay and necessary. A blind eye is turned to this, and it is never taught in schools in this manner. Instead, what is taught is how they skinned the scalps of innocent cowboys and settlers. Its the same kind of propoganda ******** that we have today. In reality, the native Americans were a peaceful people, who honored their contracts, respected nature. Yet, they were losing their lands to the settlers. They defended themselves by fighting back, to which American history labels them not as self defenders, but as barbaric butchers that needed to be put in their place. Who's land was it? And who were the freedom fighters really? Sound familiar to something going on today, does it not?

We (the US) are at war with a nation, a poor nation, where most people just want to survive each day. In the name of patriotism and freedom, we bomb these people. Yet, in the past 100 years, we have put black people in chains. We have wiped out an entire race of people in the native Americans, who were a just and honest people, who were trusting in their dealings.

Hypocricy. ******* hypocrisy. All in the name of patriotism.

I agree absolutely everything you said in this post. Patriotism and religion are often uses as tools (or instruments, to use the parlance of our time) of destruction.

[Denyer]

Even if God himself appear and tell anything I definitely think some would say is a trick or explain it somehow.

You're assuming it would try to communicate through language, aren't you?

And selling an omnipotent being rather short...

Why allow so much disinformation to exist?

Probably for the same reason as leaving a snake in a garden, and not giving the two humans in knowledge of good and evil. Because it's a fictional rationalis- er, because it's all part of the plan.

Where we disagree is on the matter of what that plan might be.

Love meaning forgiveness, forgiveness meaning not weighing the finite against the infinite... but most people would prefer to believe in a divine validation of the same hierarchies they see around them. Because although they may not give on people, they don't mind offsetting that judgement onto their god. Which strikes me as woefully the wrong way around: people have finite patiences and capacities for forgiveness.

[The Last Autobot]

Even if God himself appear and tell anything I definitely think some would say is a trick or explain it somehow.

You're assuming it would try to communicate through language, aren't you?

And selling an omnipotent being rather short...

No, by any other means. And the most logical here would think they were schyzophrenic more than being adressed by God.

[Denyer]

the most logical here would think they were schyzophrenic more than being adressed by God.

You're also working on the assumption a supreme being is only going to bother communicating with five people, or fifty. Rather than everyone, everywhere, simultaneously.

[The Last Autobot]

the most logical here would think they were schyzophrenic more than being adressed by God.

You're also working on the assumption a supreme being is only going to bother communicating with five people, or fifty. Rather than everyone, everywhere, simultaneously.

Mmmm, no again. But in that particular scenario -as Ive seen through the years Ive been in this board- some would say that ALL the rest are crazy. After all, many have stated that not what the majority say -in a lot of issues- is right.

Or would think is a global pandemic, something wrong in the water, anything scientifically, logically, rationally functional

[Denyer]

some would say that ALL the rest are crazy

Om-ni-po-tent.

And if there's an all (singular: everyone) how can there be a some?

[Metal Vendetta]

Is there any chance we will ever see the Holocaust, or the expulsion of the Palestinians, or the massive deaths of Native Americans, or the atrocities in Dharfour, Sudan, or 9/11, or the slaughter of Muslims and Jews during the Crusades, or the slaughter of Mormons in 1836 in Missouri, or the actions of Stalin and Mao against their people, as a good thing?

Wholesale genocidal slaughter is always wholesale genocidal slaughter. The more time passes, the more our shock and horror increases.

Actually sprunk, I have to pull you up on this one. Check out Numbers 31 or Isaiah 13 (there are plenty of other examples) for biblical genocidal fun. Because those who were being "put to the sword, their children's heads dashed open upon the ground and their women raped" were "sinners" it was seen by God's chosen people as a good thing. See how a little religion can distort even the most cut and dried cases? Ask anyone about Moses these days and they'll mention the 10 Commandments and all that. They tend to skip the part where he ordered his men to slaughter all the Midianite women and boys, sparing only the youngest virgin girls for...well, you get the idea. I bet there are loads of Jews (and Christians, for that matter) who would defend Moses's actions as a good thing even today.

Incidentally, I've just been reading the suras about Moses (or Musa) in the Koran. For some reason the Muslim accounts of his life leave out all the genocidal bits, and he comes across as a much nicer and more tolerant chap. Odd, that.

[The Last Autobot]

some would say that ALL the rest are crazy

Om-ni-po-tent.

And if there's an all (singular: everyone) how can there be a some?

In that situation.

All see God (including you)

Some (of the all) dont necessarrilly accept it, some accept it but dont follow Him. Some would say that the rest are crazy (or more to the point crazier than you). Or some just deny it. Denial is a very powerful thing.

Being onmipotent doesnt mean HE will force you to something you dont want. Or showing time after time HE is God to you.

Lets just shorten it to that I dont believe Non believers (like Ive seen here) to be persuaded or want to accept the existance of God not even if He himself appear.

[Metal Vendetta]

Lets just shorten it to that I dont believe Non believers (like Ive seen here) to be persuaded or want to accept the existance of God not even if He himself appear.

If God showed up and said "I am God, here's the deal" I'd be a believer in a second.

I don't believe in God because there is no evidence, and what purports to be evidence is contradictory and about as convincing as Starscream's oath of loyalty. If God was real, there wouldn't be any "religion" because we would all know he was real so the notion of religion (certainly different types of religion, anyway) would cease to exist.

[Best First]

you have already said words to that effect.

its just been pointed to be a massively flawed suggestion, repeating it doesn't make it otherwise.

Being omnipotent means that if he wanted to, he could, and if he appeared to everyone, you would assume this means he wanted to.

If he is 'appearing' in a manner that isn't 100% compelling then either he isn't omnipotent or he is playing a slightly odd game.

[The Last Autobot]

Lets just shorten it to that I dont believe Non believers (like Ive seen here) to be persuaded or want to accept the existance of God not even if He himself appear.

If God showed up and said "I am God, here's the deal" I'd be a believer in a second.

I don't believe in God because there is no evidence, and what purports to be evidence is contradictory and about as convincing as Starscream's oath of loyalty. If God was real, there wouldn't be any "religion" because we would all know he was real so the notion of religion (certainly different types of religion, anyway) would cease to exist.

We would be one happy family, perhaps. Maybe someday.

Being omnipotent means that if he wanted to, he could, and if he appeared to everyone, you would assume this means he wanted to.

Or if you dont want to follow then you can go to hell

[Metal Vendetta]

We would be one happy family, perhaps. Maybe someday.

Well, I'm waiting. I reckon I've got 40 or 50 years left on the clock, we'll give God until then to show up, shall we? Otherwise he'll have missed his window...

[The Last Autobot]

We would be one happy family, perhaps. Maybe someday.

Well, I'm waiting. I reckon I've got 40 or 50 years left on the clock, we'll give God until then to show up, shall we? Otherwise he'll have missed his window...

Well there is always trying to be that way on your own. Each of us do it in a way.

[Denyer]

If he is 'appearing' in a manner that isn't 100% compelling then either he isn't omnipotent or he is playing a slightly odd game.

"Ho ho ho. I'm a prankster god. I am killing me."

even if He himself appear.

Curiously enough, I'm not talking about lights and thunder. Anyone can do a few special effects or visuals.

Knowledge that a god exists and what its plan is could be presented to all -- stripped of any miscommunication caused by medium. It isn't. We have, instead, multitudinous groups arguing that there was a message and they're the only ones who get it right.

Lots of people are really eager to sell their gods short, aren't they?

[Metal Vendetta]

We would be one happy family, perhaps. Maybe someday.

Well, I'm waiting. I reckon I've got 40 or 50 years left on the clock, we'll give God until then to show up, shall we? Otherwise he'll have missed his window...

Well there is always trying to be that way on your own. Each of us do it in a way.

I am that way on my own, thanks. I've very secure and happy in my beliefs, they just don't match yours, which I consider to be misguided and delusional. Even if I did agree 100% with you, we still wouldn't be one big happy family, because as this topic has shown, even you, Bouncelot, Yaya and OPR don't agree on the same definition of God. Then there are the Muslims, Hindus, Jews...in fact check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God to see just how many different definitions of God are out there. Which one is right, or does it not matter as long as you believe in something?

Curiously enough, I'm not talking about lights and thunder. Anyone can do a few special effects or visuals.

See, I'd want lights and thunder.

[The Last Autobot]

Well, I'm waiting. I reckon I've got 40 or 50 years left on the clock, we'll give God until then to show up, shall we? Otherwise he'll have missed his window...

Well there is always trying to be that way on your own. Each of us do it in a way.

I am that way on my own, thanks. I've very secure and happy in my beliefs, they just don't match yours, which I consider to be misguided and delusional. Even if I did agree 100% with you, we still wouldn't be one big happy family, because as this topic has shown, even you, Bouncelot, Yaya and OPR don't agree on the same definition of God. Then there are the Muslims, Hindus, Jews...in fact check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God to see just how many different definitions of God are out there. Which one is right, or does it not matter as long as you believe in something?

Curiously enough, I'm not talking about lights and thunder. Anyone can do a few special effects or visuals.

See, I'd want lights and thunder.

Ive alrealy checked Wikipedia, thanks. The bottom line -for me- is that if you are a good person you can be it in anything you do. If you are bad just the same.

I dont intend to preach or convince anyone of my beliefs. I think its a private and personal path.

There a lot of different definitions of God because each of us want to comprehend Him and in the history of our race there are a lot of different ways of trying to reach him or explain from a sociological, cultural and antropological view. In our own society there are so many different perspectives of phenommenons and concepts who in complexity pale in comparison and nonetheless are valid.

Well maybe Im misguided (there is always the probability of being wrong). But delusional would be something else.

[Dead Head]

check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God

Ah. They missed out the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

[Metal Vendetta]

The bottom line -for me- is that if you are a good person you can be it in anything you do. If you are bad just the same.

And also for me. Good and bad are relative though.

There a lot of different definitions of God because each of us want to comprehend Him and in the history of our race there are a lot of different ways of trying to reach him or explain from a sociological, cultural and antropological view.

So who's right?