I had no idea people in Britain were so religious?

[Metal Vendetta]

I got no beef with what you believe, OPR. You seem to come from the far-rational wing of the church.

[Best First]

Hope I haven't missed responding to anything important.

only having the ability to answer direct questions rather than skirt around them with amazing amounts of nonsense.

You can say blah blah I am a Christian and I help people but if you are doing good because god says so rather than because you have rationally arrived at the conclusion that this is a beneficial path to take in the here and now then you are a significantly less inspiring or impressive individual in my eyes.

I thought i did a decent job covering my points. I realize Im not lawyer quality here, but I thought I did a decent job.
Also for about 15 years I had lost faith. I was convinced that God didnt exist. FIRMLY. However, that didnt change my actions as far as helping people goes. I now have to replace all of my top teeth and had to have a plastic ankle put in because I chose to help people and generally be good to my fellow man. I didnt let fear of God or fear of my fellow man deter me from doing what I believe is right. Thats the same attitude that got me in a car to New Orleans this year. Im going back in a couple weeks to help with the cleanup/rebuilding for a few days. God didnt tell me to.

I renewed my faith the moment I held Koen for the first time. I cant explain it and wont even try to because that would cause someone to try to trivialize the greatest moment of my life. There was just something at that moment. Thats just me.

that was more directed at bouncelot's standard 'religion is good because religous people do good things' notion that he likes to trot out.

what you are saying (seems to be) that you believe something created all this but its not something that guides the way you act.

meaning i can discuss with you whether something is right or wrong on rational grounds.

meaning what you believe has no impact on me.

meaning its none of mine.

[sprunkner]

Another idea on the servitude thing:

God is a Father. He has lots of children, spiritual children. He wants his kids to grow up. He provides a physical component to spiritual experience, becase all whole things carry a spiritual and a physical component.

So we end up here, unable to remember what happened before out lives for various reasons, given free will but also given a way to erase our mistakes--a half-God, half-man who suffered for them. We learn. We grow and change. Eventually we end up back with God.

Ultimately, we'll have put ourselves in certain places. Those who didn't make much of their mortal experience don't go to hell, or suffer anything other than maybe some guilt. They just kind of stay where they are. Those who have progressed become grown-ups-- that is, we become Gods.

Just a thought. Since I'm not so sure how much I believe anymore, I'm not going for any absolutes.

I will say, though, that nothing here has moved me either way.

[Best First]

not even the toast?

[sprunkner]

Well, f***, Besty, you never replaced any of my loaves.

It's got to be wheat-free bread, though. Maybe that miracle is harder to finangle when you have defective intestines.

[Best First]

Well, f***, Besty, you never replaced any of my loaves.

i did. i just replaced them with ones that were exactly the same. eat that. literally.

It had the head... of a sheep.
And the body... of a sheep.

But it was the body of a different sheep!

It's got to be wheat-free bread, though. Maybe that miracle is harder to finangle when you have defective intestines.

again, you would asume that would be taken into account...

[Impactor returns 2.0]

. that was a silly generalized statement.

Actually, not one thing on earth, or in its history has been responsible for making more ppl kill under the same banner. from faith to war and back again.
Religon is an evil concept.

Go check out the middle east today, some religous fellows are on a Jihad you know.

Bottom line, are ppl killing other ppl in allhas name, lets say, today and tommorow? - of course. remove religon.

[Bouncelot]

If Jesus is God, and God can't die, how could Jesus be God if he was crucified?

But because He was God, he couldn't stay dead.

So tell me then, where is the sacrifice? I mean, if my mother was tortured and died on the cross for me, wouldn't her sacrifice mean more because she would stay dead.

My disagreement with you is that nothing is beyond God's control. If He chooses to forgive someone, it is an easy thing for Him. No sacrifice of Himself is required. He only need say "Be", and it is.

Yes and no. Sure, God could, in theory, let people off their sins with nobody paying the penalty. However, that would be unjust, and God cares that justice is done. It's a compromise solution between the two extremes of letting everyone off scott free and condeming everybody for their sin

If God loves all those who suffer, then how can He not want to see those who cause that suffering be properly punished for the suffering they have caused? How can a God of love not want to see justice done? He's given you a way out of Hell, if you're willing to take it.

Okay, so tell me, from a Christian standpoint, if I don't believe Jesus to be God or the Son of God, where do I stand with Him according to the Bible?

Well, you wouldn't be accepting the way God has provided to get rid of your sin. Jesus did say that "no-one comes to the Father except through me."

I cannot imagine how anybody who has experienced the relationship with God which defines Christianity could possibly want to commit an atrocity of any kind

And yet, we have numerous examples of such people today, who invoke God's blessing in one sentence, and bomb an innocent people in another. Just so you know though, I would never judge a religion by its followers. Only by those who were intended to be examples, like prophets, and only by what one's religious scripture says, for example the Bible. For me to judge Christianity by the words of Pat Robertson or judge Islam by what Sadaam Hussein says is fraught with inaccuracies and personal biases. I go to the source. In the case of Christianity, the Bible. In the case of Islam, the Koran and the Hadith. In the case of Judaism, the Old Testament, and so forth.

If we take the followers of these religions today as examples of what they are about, we are making a grave error. We must study the religions for what they truly are, not by todays representatives of them.

True up to a point. Of course, the examples you quote are of people who go against the teachings of their faith. Judging a religion by the actions of those who actually follow it would seem to be perfectly sensible to me.

Greed makes people kill one another as well. As does jealousy. I could even say that Country music has made me want to kill a time or two. that was a silly generalized statement.

Damn, I glad somebody understands this. People who feel religion is the root cause of all evil need only look as far as human nature to understand where true evil comes from. In the hands of an evil person, a soft pillow that we use to sleep can smuther. Its not the pillow that is evil, but how it is used. Such is religion. Such is any instituiton, whether it be politics, family, race, etc. White people here in America put black people in chains, in chains, because of how they looked, not what they believed.

[/quote]

Exactly. Religious extremists twist the teachings of the faith they claim to follow to justify things that aren't compatible with their religion. Impy's claims that as religion kills people it must be evil are a hopelessly simplistic and invalid way of looking at it. If Osama Bin Laden claims Islam in support of a murder, how does that make Christianity or Judaism or Hinduism or Sikhism or any other religion evil? An equivalent would be that because politics leads to terrorist groups like the IRA or ETA who kill people, then people who belong to peaceful political groups that oppose war are evil because they also subscribe to politics. Even if you limit it to within a single religion, the atrocities committed by the Roman Catholic Church via the Crusades and the Inquisition don't mean that I, as a Protestant Evangelical Christian am tainted by events which go against my faith and in which I would have been a victim rather than a perpetrator. They also don't taint any of the Catholic friends I've had over the years because they also utterly reject and condemn such actions. Blaming either would be like blaming the Labour Party for the evils of Stalinism - both examples of Socialist political beliefs in action. One extreme and one less so.

Actually, not one thing on earth, or in its history has been responsible for making more ppl kill under the same banner.

Even if you lump every religion together as part of the same thing, I'm not sure the figures add up to your claim. Stalin and Chairman Mao both killed tens of millions of people in the name of Communism - the last time I looked, both regimes have death figures that significantly exceed the most that could be realistically claimed for Christianity, and probably both regimes individually were responsible for killing more people than all religions put together.

Anyway, I'm going to be naughty and double-post in order to answer some more comments in a different post without making this one horribly long. Hope that's OK.

[Bouncelot]

Jesus and Judas, for one example-or did he always know not to trust him (I can't remember).

He knew what Judas was going to do according to the gospels.

So…

God, who loves Judas, puts him in a position where he betrays Jesus (thus actually saving mankind) and is then vilified for it. Go God!

Who's vilifying Judas? You don't see much of that around.

Hell is nothing but a tool for controlling people - how come it isn't mentioned at all in the old testament by the way? Its a threat to make people behave as a bunch of leaders want them to and transparently so.

So how come, out of the hundreds of Christians I've known fairly well over the years, not one has been motivated to any significant degree by the fear of going to Hell?

I’m sorry, but I don’t really feel compelled to take evidence from the toast people.

Hey, I've known Christians from lots of different types of churches well enough to know that Hell isn't a significant motivating factor for any of those I've known. So if Christians from across the spectrum of Christian belief aren't motivated by the concept of Hell, how can you claim that it is a tool for controlling people?

There are plenty of things in the New Testament not mentioned, or not explained, in the Old Testament. The Bible is built on the concept of progressive revelation.

“Hmm, today I think I shall reveal the fact that tthere is a big burning pit you can go to if you reject my way. This place will consistently be portrayed in the most negative light possible but hey, by no means construe it as some kind of threat”

You must have missed all the bits in the New Testament that tell believers that they are utterly safe from Hell..

God reveals more of Himself as time goes by, and this builds on the earlier revelation to make a fuller picture.

right. Because God loves everyone equally so… tells some of them one thing and some of them another thing. You see how what you are saying…makes no sense?

That's not what I said. God tells one group of people one thing, because that's the bit that they need to know at that time. Later on, He tells the same group of people - or some other people who are familiar with the earlier message and, hence, understand it, something that builds on the first thing. Because telling people everything at once would be too difficult to grasp. It's like the way school works. When you enter school, you're told how to read and write. When you've been in the school system a few years, you are taught other things because, having learnt to read and write, you are better able to appreciate being taught about things like poetry and writing style. You couldn't and wouldn't properly understand those things without understanding the things that came first. Or would you claim that the way things are taught in schools makes no sense?

And why does God, who is apparently perfect, create a system where he then has to send his son (who is also him) to die to allow humanity to buck the system that he has created?

Would you prefer it if God had no sense of justice at all? Justice demands that sin and wrongdoing requires punishment. Jesus takes the punishment in out place. Surely that's a simple and easy to understand concept.

What? What? Its easy to understand? In that’s it readily stupid – absolutely:

Making up a set of rules and punishments and then giving a part of yourself to mean that the people who should have received those punishments don’t? What’s the point of the rules in the first place if you are going to give everyone a get out of jail free card?

To satisfy God's sense of Justice and His sense of mercy at the same time/ In Christian Theology, God is constrained by His nature - He cannot do something that goes against who He is. And part of who He is is a God who cares that justice is done. Part of who He is is a God who wants to show mercy. By doing it this way, He satisfies both parts of His nature.

And if god doesn’t require worship why make a big song and dance of it?

Because it's good for us. Worship is the one activity in life I am certain that I will never get bored of. It's one of the things I most enjoy doing. It keeps me from being self-centred and selfish. It enables me to keep a good persepective on life. Most of all, it enables me to experience God in a way I wouldn't be able to without it. In short, worship of God is fantastic. That's why He wants us to be able to enjoy it.

And why create a creature that has the potential to not exist in his presence? If god cannot bear sin, how can he create something with the potential to commit it, given that, as the creator, only he can define what sin is?

You object to the idea of God giving us freewill rather than making us automatons? He's allowing us to have the choice of choosing to live His way or to depart from His way.

I’m sorry, I’m fairly sure I asked why would god a) create something he cannot abide and b) create beings who have the potential to become something he cannot abide?

Neither of those things necessarily point to us being automatons.

Sin is really more of an absence than a presence. It's not something that God created, It's what happens when someone perverts God's creation into something less good than the original intention. Sn is what happens when someone rejects God's way of doing things, and the only way to ensure that it cannot exist is to make people into automatons incapable of making any kind of moral choices. In short, the potential for sin can only be eliminated by removing free will.

Did God not see this coming? If he didn't isn't the system unfair, given that he himself (who is obvioulsy better than us, being God) failed to anticipate it and therefore how the hell were we supposed to not fall foul? And if he did predict it (as you would think) why create it that way? it almost seems... cruel and vindicative, or as if the being in question is desperate for attention.

What, you're calling God giving us free will "cruel and vindictive"? God hasn't ever told us His reasons for creating the world this way. My favourite option is that He decided to make it that way so that He could turn evil things into something that is ultimately good.

! evil things that… he created. Brilliant.

God only created the potential for sin, not the actuality of sin. Thus there were two ways His creation could go. Either, sin would be avoided, and it would be good. Or sin would come into being, and God would intervene to turn sin towards what would ultimately be the greater good.

Why not signpost 'the choice' more clearly rather than, you know, creating extra toast? Why would anyone reject this choice if it was spelt out in clear terms and the reasons for taking it were clear?

I can think of quite a few people who have had the choice spelt out to them very explicitly, understood them, and still chosen to reject God.

nowhere has the choice been spelt out explicitly, this would require evidence, which god doesn’t seem to be a big fan of.

There's plenty of evidence out there. Maybe you're just not noticing it.

God has chosen, for whatever reason, to make Himself known through the agency of the Christian Church.

According to… the Christian Church – how strange. Your opinions aren’t at all self serving are they?

Hey, I'm just telling you what God said via the Bible - the Church is at the centre of God's plan for humanity. It's the primary means He's chosen to use from Pentecost (Acts Chapter 2) onwards.

Look at a functioning Church community, and it's got God's fingerprints all over it. That's way more obvious than any one event.

You do realise that stating things doesn’t actually make them true, right?

I guess you've not seen a properly functioning local church, then. Because if you had, you'd have some idea what I was talking about there.

Then why is a relationship with God so much fun in the here and now?

Are you actually capable of answering a straight question with a straight answer?

God's been extremely good to me throughout my life, and in the lives of loads of people I know, and in the lives of loads of people I've read about. He's consistent about being good to us whilst we're here on Earth. Logic dictates that he'll be good to us afterwards.

If God's lying about it, then he's being extremely consistent.

Yes, his these are the rules, obey the rules, ok ill just kill my son so you can get away with not obeying the rules approach has consistent written all over it.

The focus of the Bible - even in the Old Testament - has bever been about "do this, don't do that, make sure you do the other in a certain way". It is frequently stressed that the basics are "love God and love others". Those are relational things that come from the heart, not rules and regulations that you have to follow. It's much more about attifude and gettting to know God than it is about "follow the rules".

The miraculous dimension to faith is there partly as a tool to help us grow in our relationship with God and to help in the tasks he's given us to do within the Church.

Making sandwiches?

Some people do have a ministry that involves making sandwiches. You guys really are making a lot of one sentence and forgetting everything I mentioned in the rest of the surrounding paragraph, aren't you.

For the record I believe the notion that religion is the root of all evil is simplistic nonsense and making comments like that in this forum does nothing but polarise and stymie more intersting discussions, but I do believe religion has an overtly negative impact on humanity in terms of our abilities to relate to one another, evolve our philosophies beyond childish irrelevant notions and by providing a control mechanism for those who would happily pray on a fear of the unknown to push their own irrational prejudices.

You can say blah blah I am a Christian and I help people but if you are doing good because god says so rather than because you have rationally arrived at the conclusion that this is a beneficial path to take in the here and now then you are a significantly less inspiring or impressive individual in my eyes.

Boil it down to core benevolent principles that benefit EVERYONE, lose the irrational aspects (i.e the laughable notion that humanity is in any way special, any argument that has no other basis than that’s what god want’s), move forward as a species. Bingo Bango.

The primary reason I want to help other people and be a "nice person" is because I'm grateful for what God has done. Sure, I could come up with non-religious reasons why doing these things is good, but I could equally come up with non-religious reasons why it's better to look after myself and leave caring about things to other people. Both approaches make equal sense if there is no God.

Religion is a force for good in the world, the number of people motivated to do good things by religion almost certainly exceeds the number of people motivated to do good things for any other reason. Statistics show religious people to be - on average - more generous than non-religious people. There are countless millions of religious people who are like Mother Theresa - giving their lives entirely to help others, whilst there are relatively few equivalents amonst non-religious people.

Yes there are religious extremists who twist their faith to hurt others. But their numbers are tiny compared to those who sacrifice themselves to help others, The extremists are much more often than not acting directly in conflict with the teachings of the religion they choose to follow. That's why I believe that religion is, on balance, a force for good in the world and not, as Impy keeps claiming, the greatest evil on the Earth.

Oh, and as for your claim about religion impeding our ability to relate to one another, that's rubbish. If there's anything that impedes our ability to relate to each other it's tribalism. And that is every bit as prevalent in non-religious societies as it is in religious ones. My faith helps me relate to others who share it and to others who don't much better than I would otherwise do. I can say with absolute certainty that it has improved the ability of myself and others who share it to relate to other people (whether they share that faith or not) by a very very large margin.

As to your claim about childish irrelevant notions, the only thing I can think you might be referring to is specific religious beliefs. In which case, disdain for a particular belief doesn't make it any more or less valid. My faith is utterly relevant to life in today's world, and certainly makes me less childish.

And religion isn't exactly a significant factor in the success of the BNP and the other far right groups who have recently become popular in Europe by "providing a control mechanism for those who would happily pray on a fear of the unknown to push their own irrational prejudices." These groups have done precisely that across in the least religious continent on the planet. It would happen with or without religion. Where it happens in tandem with religion (or distorted forms of it), the most effective remedy is to spread the non-prejudical, inclusive version of the religion in question - undercut the evil people by undermining the message they're preaching by showing that it's in conflict with the things they puport to be basing it on.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

The primary reason I want to help other people and be a "nice person" is because I'm grateful for what God has done. Sure, I could come up with non-religious reasons why doing these things is good, but I could equally come up with non-religious reasons why it's better to look after myself and leave caring about things to other people. Both approaches make equal sense if there is no God.

I can do that without religon, and I can do it better because you are confused by god.

Religion is a force for good in the world, the number of people motivated to do good things by religion almost certainly exceeds the number of people motivated to do good things for any other reason. Statistics show religious people to be - on average - more generous than non-religious people. There are countless millions of religious people who are like Mother Theresa - giving their lives entirely to help others, whilst there are relatively few equivalents amonst non-religious people.

Actually thats not true at all.
Religous ppl do less good because they follow god by rules and preach rubbish.
Also, for every person that dies due to religon, thats 1 to many, and you cannot stop that whilst u follow the evil of religon.

Yes there are religious extremists who twist their faith to hurt others. But their numbers are tiny compared to those who sacrifice themselves to help others, The extremists are much more often than not acting directly in conflict with the teachings of the religion they choose to follow. That's why I believe that religion is, on balance, a force for good in the world and not, as Impy keeps claiming, the greatest evil on the Earth.

Greatest evil on earth because it twists and perverts ppl to kill, 1 dead person, just 1 undoes anything else.
Plus religon is motivated by money -
Stop wasting your time, work it out foryourself, your a sheep and if there was agod hes disapointed with you, he wants you to be a human being not a human doing.

Religon is the greatest evil on earth and you cant even come close to disproving it.

Oh, and as for your claim about religion impeding our ability to relate to one another, that's rubbish. If there's anything that impedes our ability to relate to each other it's tribalism. And that is every bit as prevalent in non-religious societies as it is in religious ones. My faith helps me relate to others who share it and to others who don't much better than I would otherwise do. I can say with absolute certainty that it has improved the ability of myself and others who share it to relate to other people (whether they share that faith or not) by a very very large margin.

Unfortuantly it makes u narrow minded, it makes u think god is the answer, you ignore what religon really is and what it actually does, you cant even stand on your own two feet.
You create evil on earth and help no one.

As to your claim about childish irrelevant notions, the only thing I can think you might be referring to is specific religious beliefs. In which case, disdain for a particular belief doesn't make it any more or less valid. My faith is utterly relevant to life in today's world, and certainly makes me less childish.

Your faith is based upon fear of death alone. we lie and die. stop screwing the world up with your fairy tales.

And religion isn't exactly a significant factor in the success of the BNP and the other far right groups who have recently become popular in Europe by "providing a control mechanism for those who would happily pray on a fear of the unknown to push their own irrational prejudices." These groups have done precisely that across in the least religious continent on the planet. It would happen with or without religion. Where it happens in tandem with religion (or distorted forms of it), the most effective remedy is to spread the non-prejudical, inclusive version of the religion in question - undercut the evil people by undermining the message they're preaching by showing that it's in conflict with the things they puport to be basing it on.

Wrong again!
Religon created yet another angle, the world has evil in it anyhows, and your adding the worst of them all. fairy tale evil an evil that cannot be reasoned with!

way to go [composite word including 'f*ck'] up the earth.

religon is the greates evil on earth, you follow it, the death of 100's each day is on your hands.

[Yaya]

Actually, not one thing on earth, or in its history has been responsible for making more ppl kill under the same banner. from faith to war and back again.
Religon is an evil concept.

Bottom line, are ppl killing other ppl in allhas name, lets say, today and tommorow? - of course. remove religon.

Right. I mean if a few psychos do something in yo mamma's name, I guess that makes her evil too, right?

Nothing has been more responsible for killing and wars than injustice and greed. In the name of patriotism and God, a war is currently ongoing which has nothing to do with either God or country, but stealing oil to stuff the pockets of a few in power. Do you think this is all truly happening because "they do it for God?"

Money and power talk louder in this world than the voice of any priest, imam, or rabbi.

The extremists are much more often than not acting directly in conflict with the teachings of the religion they choose to follow.

Exactly, it is this perversion of faith, not the faith itself. And faith usually gets perverted because of greed and injustice.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

Right. I mean if a few psychos do something in yo mamma's name, I guess that makes her evil too, right? [/quote]

Foolish quote. think about it.

Nothing has been more responsible for killing and wars than injustice and greed.

Yes, that being religon.

In the name of patriotism and God, a war is currently ongoing which has nothing to do with either God or country, but stealing oil to stuff the pockets of a few in power. Do you think this is all truly happening because "they do it for God?"

They being muslims yes - because the attacks in Iraq kill muslims, which, according to thier religon, means they must strike back.
Also, go check out Israel, and palistine, thats a religous war.
Religon is perverted.

Money and power talk louder in this world than the voice of any priest, imam, or rabbi.

I can pay someone to go only so far, I cant pay someone to sucide bomb.

The extremists are much more often than not acting directly in conflict with the teachings of the religion they choose to follow.

Exactly, it is this perversion of faith, not the faith itself. And faith usually gets perverted because of greed and injustice.

Without the evil of religon you wouldnt have perversion.
Regardless of the crap in the world, your adding to it with an evil you cant reason with.

[Yaya]

Without the evil of religon you wouldnt have perversion.

Man, you really have it in for religion. I've only seen this kind of hatred in people who have been molested by priests and the such.

To not have a religion is one thing.

To blame religion for anything and everything evil that every happened to anybody is the ultimate definition of an extremist.

[Optimus Prime Rib]

I got no beef with what you believe, OPR. You seem to come from the far-rational wing of the church.

OPR FOR POPE!

POPE COMMONSENSIUS I

[Impactor returns 2.0]

Without the evil of religon you wouldnt have perversion.

To blame religion for anything and everything evil that every happened to anybody is the ultimate definition of an extremist.

No,

Because I blame religon for what it causes, not for a dog poo on my garden.

I hate religon because its evil.

I also despise religous ppl because they are so concited to think that if there was a god you worship god in the correct way.
So i guess muslims are wrong, or budists are wrong, what makes you right?
I know, faith... but that itself is so concited.

[Professor Smooth]

Let's say that in 2035, some world leader decided to pull some Holocaust type-stuff again. Only this time, he succeeded. He killed off everybody who was religious. Now, let's fast-forward to the year 2503. How is this looked upon? Is it still viewed as something terrible? Or is it looked at as the one morbid event that, given a couple hundred years to reflect, seemed to be a good thing?

[Denyer]

Religions come and go, but people still keep building them. Revenge and fear are powerful emotions.

Pattern recognition / construction isn't going to go away. It could be better understood.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

Its like I keep saying, lets just say everyone on earth dies, theres no one about to worship god then, does he still exist.
Honestly with no one about, what does he do, start over? seems pointless if thats human nature it will self repeat.
It makes the notion of god pointless.

[Bouncelot]

The primary reason I want to help other people and be a "nice person" is because I'm grateful for what God has done. Sure, I could come up with non-religious reasons why doing these things is good, but I could equally come up with non-religious reasons why it's better to look after myself and leave caring about things to other people. Both approaches make equal sense if there is no God.

I can do that without religon, and I can do it better because you are confused by god.

Ah, making judgements about the life of someone you've never actually met again, are you?

Religion is a force for good in the world, the number of people motivated to do good things by religion almost certainly exceeds the number of people motivated to do good things for any other reason. Statistics show religious people to be - on average - more generous than non-religious people. There are countless millions of religious people who are like Mother Theresa - giving their lives entirely to help others, whilst there are relatively few equivalents amonst non-religious people.

Actually thats not true at all.
Religous ppl do less good because they follow god by rules and preach rubbish.[/quote]

Assertation without evidence there. There is some evidence that religious people are, on average, "better people" than non-religious people because, even if all religions are a load of rubbish, it motivates people to be better people. In some cases it's following God by rules (though, I would say, not in the case of real Christianity). And if "rubbish" motivates people to be more loving towards others, surely it's rubbish worth having.

Also, for every person that dies due to religon, thats 1 to many, and you cannot stop that whilst u follow the evil of religon.

I would agree that one person killed in the name of religion is one too many. However, your claim that following a religion means I can't stop at least some of that. I can point out to those extremists who do kill in the name of religion that their actions are in direct contradiction to the faith they claim to be following. And because I share religious beliefs with them, they are a lot more likely to listen to me telling them to stop it than they are to listen to you telling them to stop it. Especially if you're arguing in the same manner you have been doing on this thread - which is only more likely to entrench their position.

Yes there are religious extremists who twist their faith to hurt others. But their numbers are tiny compared to those who sacrifice themselves to help others, The extremists are much more often than not acting directly in conflict with the teachings of the religion they choose to follow. That's why I believe that religion is, on balance, a force for good in the world and not, as Impy keeps claiming, the greatest evil on the Earth.

Greatest evil on earth because it twists and perverts ppl to kill, 1 dead person, just 1 undoes anything else.

If one death undoes everything else, then politics must be evil because it twists and perverts people to kill. Do the actions of, for example, Josef Stalin or Adolph Hitler - who have killed people in the name of politics - make all forms of politics evil? Because if you condemn religion as being inherently evil because it is twisted to support killing people, then you also have to condemn politics as being inherently evil because it is twisted to support killing people. Do you condemn politics as one of the greatest evils on Earth, or are you inconsistent about the standards you apply?

Plus religon is motivated by money -

No. Some religious activity is motivated by money. It was the Bible that first said "the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil". My faith has led me to view money as simply a tool, it's nice to have, but I can live with only enough to supply my basic needs, and can really enjoy giving it away. If it was all motivated by money, then religion couldn't have produced millions upon millions of Mother Theresa types, could it?

Stop wasting your time, work it out foryourself, your a sheep and if there was agod hes disapointed with you, he wants you to be a human being not a human doing.

Someone who doesn't believe in God is telling me for certain what God thinks of me? Sure, if my faith is based on a falsehood, then I am wasting my time with it. However, even so my faith serves as a foundation for caring about others, a reason to fight the human tendancy to be self-centred and selfish, and provides me with more joy out of life than I get from anything else.

Religon is the greatest evil on earth and you cant even come close to disproving it.

You've yet to make a convincing case. The closest you've come is saying "people are killed in the name of religion. Therefore it is the greatest evil on earth". However, as has been repeatedly pointed out, people have been killed in the name of politics (the figure almost certainly puts religion in the shade), economics and greed (ditto), and numerous other things. Why single out Religion as the greatest evil and ignore these other things? Why ignore the vast number of good deeds that people do in the name of religion? You've failed to even attempt to answer those questions, and without doing so, you've failed to make your case.

Oh, and as for your claim about religion impeding our ability to relate to one another, that's rubbish. If there's anything that impedes our ability to relate to each other it's tribalism. And that is every bit as prevalent in non-religious societies as it is in religious ones. My faith helps me relate to others who share it and to others who don't much better than I would otherwise do. I can say with absolute certainty that it has improved the ability of myself and others who share it to relate to other people (whether they share that faith or not) by a very very large margin.

Unfortuantly it makes u narrow minded, it makes u think god is the answer, you ignore what religon really is and what it actually does, you cant even stand on your own two feet.
You create evil on earth and help no one.

Hm, I've been called, narrow-minded, delusional, and there's been an implication that I'm highly credulous as well on this thread. Of course, I don't really think I am. I have my religious beliefs, they've become the cornerstone of my worldview (and everyone has beliefs of some kind that define the way they see the world). However, I'm certainly open-minded about most things that can be made to fit within my worldview, which is probably about as open-minded as people get.

Of course, the rest of that paragraph is simply repeating what you've claimed (but not backed up) elsewhere in the thread. Of course, if I'm ignoring what relgion really is, then maybe I'm not actually following a religon at all, maybe in all those years of studying my faith, the things behind it, and the implications for the way I live my life, I've missed the essential nature of it. Or maybe you're just seeing religious extremists and assuming that they are the ones who define what relgion is, rather than the mainstream of each religion, or the revelation it claims to be based on being the ones/things which define it.

As to your claim about childish irrelevant notions, the only thing I can think you might be referring to is specific religious beliefs. In which case, disdain for a particular belief doesn't make it any more or less valid. My faith is utterly relevant to life in today's world, and certainly makes me less childish.

Your faith is based upon fear of death alone. we lie and die. stop screwing the world up with your fairy tales.

Wait a minute. You're telling me why I believe what I believe? How would this be any different from me claiming as absolute fact that your hatred of religion is based on having had a bad experience with religion, and that you're projecting that experience onto people who have nothing to do with that bad experience? Because, quite frankly, I don't have any significant fear of death, and it certainly played no part in my becoming a Christian, nor does it play any part in my ongoing decision to continue with my faith.

And religion isn't exactly a significant factor in the success of the BNP and the other far right groups who have recently become popular in Europe by "providing a control mechanism for those who would happily pray on a fear of the unknown to push their own irrational prejudices." These groups have done precisely that across in the least religious continent on the planet. It would happen with or without religion. Where it happens in tandem with religion (or distorted forms of it), the most effective remedy is to spread the non-prejudical, inclusive version of the religion in question - undercut the evil people by undermining the message they're preaching by showing that it's in conflict with the things they puport to be basing it on.

Wrong again!

Hm, so the success of far-right groups who do exactly what you're accusing religion of in the most secular and non-religious part of the world has no relation to the question of whether preying on fear of the unknown in order to further irrational prejudices is a religious thing, or a part of the human condition. If you're going to claim I'm just plain wrong, at least have the decency to offer some kind of reason or argument why I'm wrong.

Religon created yet another angle, the world has evil in it anyhows, and your adding the worst of them all. fairy tale evil an evil that cannot be reasoned with!

way to go **** up the earth.

Hm, you wouldn't be displaying an irrational prejudice here would you?

religon is the greates evil on earth, you follow it, the death of 100's each day is on your hands.

Nope, you've still failed to back that one up with any arguments. I can accept that the death of all those thousands who die each day as a direct result of the activities of big business could be on my hands when I support the companies responsible by buying their products. I accept that those dieing as a result of the actions or inaction of my government could be on my hands because I didn't take enough effort to protest at the policies responsible - or I may even have supported some of said policies. But to say that deaths caused by people acting in the name of religions I do not subscribe to are on my hands is just plain lunacy. To say that deaths caused by people who I believe to be perverting my own religion, and whose actions I profoundly disagree with and condemn are on my hands is slightly more plausible, but still utterly wrong. Sure, I could have spoken up more to dissuade such elements from their specific (wrong) beliefs - though I don't have any direct contact with such extremists. But that's about as far as my culpability in their actions could reasonably be taken.

In short, provide some evidence to link me to the extremists before calling me a murderer.

I also despise religous ppl because they are so concited to think that if there was a god you worship god in the correct way.
So i guess muslims are wrong, or budists are wrong, what makes you right?

Well, if you believe something, then it naturally follows that you think anything that contradicts it to be incorrect - not conceiit, simply being consistent with your beliefs. If the teaching of the Bible (particularly the New Testament) is genuinely from God, then either all other religions are wrong, or God was lying when He gave the teaching that's in the Bible. SImilarly if, as you believe, there is no God, then all those religions which believe in Him are wrong. Is stating that any less conceited than me stating that I believe other religions to be wrong? How about if we were to start using terms that imply extreme moral judgement like, I don't know, calling those religious beliefs we disagree with "evil", is that something we should consider conceited?

[Professor Smooth]

Assertation without evidence there. There is some evidence that religious people are, on average, "better people" than non-religious people because, even if all religions are a load of rubbish, it motivates people to be better people.

Now, what I really want to say to that is "[composite word including 'f*ck'] you," I'll simply ask what "evidence" exists for this. I'd also like to know what criteria you're using to define "better."

[Bouncelot]

Assertation without evidence there. There is some evidence that religious people are, on average, "better people" than non-religious people because, even if all religions are a load of rubbish, it motivates people to be better people.

Now, what I really want to say to that is "**** you," I'll simply ask what "evidence" exists for this. I'd also like to know what criteria you're using to define "better."

Well, earlier on, I mentioned a study that showed that religious people were more generous than non-religious people. I also mentioned that there are millions of religious people who - as a result of their faith, give up their lives to help others, which is rare amongst non-religious people. That's not to say that any individual religious person is better than any individual non-religious person, just that - on average - religion has an improving effect.

Also, note that I didn't say that it was conclusive evidence, or that there wasn't any evidence pointing the other way. Just that there was some evidence which could be taken to point in that direction.

[Professor Smooth]

As long as we're looking at evidence, I could point out that there is quite a bit of evidence that points to most of The Bible being wrong.

[Optimus Prime Rib]

I more worried about Impys thoughts that Im a total [composite word including 'f*ck'] because I believe in God rather than whos a nicer person.

[Professor Smooth]

I more worried about Impys thoughts that Im a total **** because I believe in God rather than whos a nicer person.

It's alright, Commonsensius, believing in God is not nearly as big a problem as believing yourself above other people because of it. You clearly don't. Bouncelot clearly does. Though I'm not sure Bouncelot's aware of this yet.

[Yaya]

I more worried about Impys thoughts that Im a total **** because I believe in God rather than whos a nicer person.

Like I said, extremist can work both ways. Impy is an atheist extremist. I have only seen this kind of hatred for religion in someone who has been a victim of abuse from a priest or the like.

Who cares though? Its not like my belief in hinges on what others think.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

yo dude ie not been abused by anyone, if I had id tell you, but I havent,.

Get this, you dont have to be abused to not belive in god, wow, what a shock that must be to you. what a total penis, sorry, but because someone does belive in god they have been abused? where do u get off?

Oh the same stop as beliving in god. ok ill play the same stupid game.

Anyone who belives in god was touched by thier dad.

toss pot.

Religon is the biggest evil on earth, you support death.

[Bouncelot]

Get this, you dont have to be abused to not belive in god, wow, what a shock that must be to you. what a total penis, sorry, but because someone does belive in god they have been abused? where do u get off?

Hey, read what Yaya was actually saying. Most atheists aren't even remotely as hostile towards religion as you are. Heck, Richard Dawkins is less intolerant of religion than you are. The implication (rightly or wrongly) was that the level of vitriol you're spewing out against religion is usually only expressed by those who have been abused in some manner by people acting in the name of religion.

Religon is the biggest evil on earth, you support death.

Just to sound like a CD stuck on repeat: please provide some kind of argument to back up this absurd claim. Repeating it doesn't make it any more true.

As long as we're looking at evidence, I could point out that there is quite a bit of evidence that points to most of The Bible being wrong.

The only such evidence that's been claimed on this thread is the claim that miracles don't happen, and therefore that they can't have happened in the Bible - it's not actually evidence that shows the Bible to be untrustworthy or wrong - the argument goes "miracles don't happen, therefore they can't happen, therefore this account of miracles happening must be wrong, therefore, you will never accept any accounts of miracles happening".

It's alright, Commonsensius, believing in God is not nearly as big a problem as believing yourself above other people because of it. You clearly don't. Bouncelot clearly does. Though I'm not sure Bouncelot's aware of this yet.

Except I don't believe myself above other people as a result of my faith. I believe I deserve hell as much as the next man.

[Predabot]

I know I'm going to regret getting involved in a religion-thread...

Well, to be frank Impy, I don't think I've ever seen people as negative to religion as on this board, anywhere. Least not anyone I've talked too.

And everybody I know is an atheist, so that's saying something.

And please people, anybody except me that's getting bloody bored and tired of these incessant, endless repetitive threads about religion??

Can't we talk about something that's acctually fun?? Like, say, intelligent, and less intelligent, adventure-comics?

[Professor Smooth]

I know I'm going to regret getting involved in a religion-thread...

Well, to be frank Impy, I don't think I've ever seen people as negative to religion as on this board, anywhere. Least not anyone I've talked too.

And everybody I know is an atheist, so that's saying something.

And please people, anybody except me that's getting bloody bored and tired of these incessant, endless repetitive threads about religion??

Can't we talk about something that's acctually fun?? Like, say, intelligent, and less intelligent, adventure-comics?

No offense Preds, but if you don't like the subject matter of the topic, stay out of said topic. I'm not saying you're not right, hell, even I'm getting bored (as neither side is EVER going to get through to the other),.

[Predabot]

I just felt that I had to say something, really.