I had no idea people in Britain were so religious?

Post by **Best First** » Wed Feb 01, 2006 4:22 pm

****ing midicloreans

Yaya · Post by **Yaya** » Wed Feb 01, 2006 5:34 pm

Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:Yaya - you dont belive in anything really. your just scared of death and have taken the easy route out.

Scared of death? Definitely. But not because my life will end. I fear death because I don't know how God will deal with me after.

So I fear God. But at the same time, because I appreciate His greatness, I love Him too. Regardless of what He decides for me, it wouldn't change His greatness. And regardless of whether I love Him or not, that doesn't change what He is either.

the idea of God that anoys me but actually the way in which different religons percive god and single it out as there own

Their own? God belongs to no one. Everything belongs to Him. If a person believes in God, and believes He is perfect and omnipotent, then how can He belong to anyone? That's why I have a problem with Christianity, because they believe Jesus is God's Son, yet everything in the universe is God's creation. In that sense, we are all "God's children", so to speak. Moreover, many religions like to fashion God to fit into whatever makes them feel good. They make God a person, so they can feel that "Hey, God is like us!" But reality is reality. What God is, He is, and it can't be changed by someone's perception of Him or what they hope He is.

For me to stand here and say to anyone "you will burn in Hell" is not only presumptuous, but its playing God. The fate of someone rest with God alone. I have my own self to worry about. However, I can say that if God intends on sending you to Hell, to Hell you will go.

WHAT ABOUT THE NEANDERTHALS?

What about them? They were primitive ape-men that died out. End of story.

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Wed Feb 01, 2006 5:38 pm

You fear the wrath of the all loving god - nice one.

crappy god. and a daft idea when u think about it.

Metal Vendetta · Post by **Metal Vendetta** » Wed Feb 01, 2006 5:51 pm

Yaya wrote:I don't deny that evolution exists. Things do evolve. I just don't think that mankind is a product of it.

Yaya wrote:
WHAT ABOUT THE NEANDERTHALS?
What about them? They were primitive ape-men that died out. End of story.

Do you think the Neaderthals evolved?

Yaya · Post by **Yaya** » Wed Feb 01, 2006 6:00 pm

Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:You fear the wrath of the all loving god - nice one.

crappy god. and a daft idea when u think about it.

All-loving is crap. If someone believes in Hell, how can God be all-loving?

I believe that beyond love, God is just. Hence a day of judgement, hence a heaven and hell. A Christian who says God is All-loving then should believe that a Hell and Heaven are unnecessary, and don't need to exist. Often, Christians like to go against their own Bible to entice nonChristians to enter their faith on the idea that "God loves everyone!!!!" It's only later they talk about people burning in Hell if you don't comply.

Regardless of what my idea of justice is, it would not matter. God's idea of justice is the only real justice, given that He is aware of everything, seen and unseen. If He chooses that I burn in Hell, then that is the right thing.

I believe He has love for those who submit to His will, and dislike for those who don't. Having said this, I believe that God's forgiveness is greater than His wrath. Everyone does wrong. Everyone. So its not my actions that will prevail in getting me to heaven, but His mercy. That's why when some Christian fanatic gets on his soapbox and judges me, I tell them just that. That I have hope in God's forgiveness, not in my good deeds.

Look, these ideas that I'm expressing, they are difficult to grasp and quite involved, particularly for those who don't believe in God in the first place. What I mean is, in order to see where I'm coming from, you have to have some level of agreement with me on the foundation here, which is that God exists. If you have not come to this conclusion, then my ideas are pretty irrelevent and foolish to you.

Please don't think I'm out to convince you God exist. That can't be done. You want my viewpoint, I'm giving it to you.

Yaya · Post by **Yaya** » Wed Feb 01, 2006 6:02 pm

Metal Vendetta wrote:
Yaya wrote:I don't deny that evolution exists. Things do evolve. I just don't think that mankind is a product of it.

Yaya wrote:
WHAT ABOUT THE NEANDERTHALS?
What about them? They were primitive ape-men that died out. End of story.
Do you think the Neaderthals evolved?

Perhaps. Perhaps not. Perhaps they were created by God in the same way man was created. Perhaps they were from a different planet altogether, which is entirely possible.

I don't deny evolution.

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Wed Feb 01, 2006 6:16 pm

You have convinced me even more then god doesnt exist and if he did, he sounds totaly human product, everything about just shouts human creation in the sense it was made up to controll the masses and stuff.

Its so contricted in so many ways, you even contridict yourself, you pick bits you like, argue with other parts that seem convienent to you then dimiss things that u cant explain or threater your belife system.

Apart from all of that, there is no point to god what so ever, not one thing has convinced me to folow the most evil thing on earth. i think its sad that ppl are still delusional, its so, backwards.

still it will die out so im not fussed.

Metal Vendetta · Post by **Metal Vendetta** » Wed Feb 01, 2006 6:38 pm

Yaya wrote:Perhaps they were from a different planet altogether, which is entirely possible.

No it's not entirely possible. You appear to have left the shores of intelligent design and set sail on the seven seas of bad science fiction. I would try and argue but I can tell you're not even halfway serious at this point, which is a shame because if you tried to think rationally about these kind of things you might learn something, instead of just shouting off your poorly-conceived mish-mash of ideas.

Yaya · Post by **Yaya** » Wed Feb 01, 2006 6:47 pm

Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:You have convinced me even more then god doesnt exist and if he did, he sounds totaly human product, everything about just shouts human creation in the sense it was made up to controll the masses and stuff.

Nice talkin with you.

No it's not entirely possible. You appear to have left the shores of intelligent design and set sail on the seven seas of bad science fiction.

Maybe you can think of God as limited in some way. I don't believe He is, and so, if He wants to create many different races of creatures throughout the universe, He can do it.

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Wed Feb 01, 2006 7:00 pm

so they can lick his ass. go figure.

Professor Smooth · Post by **Professor Smooth** » Wed Feb 01, 2006 7:32 pm

Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:so they can lick his ass. go figure.

I have never been more sure of anything in my life when I say that I am going to buy you a beer.

Optimus Prime Rib · Post by **Optimus Prime Rib** » Wed Feb 01, 2006 7:45 pm

I believe in God. I believe in Evolution. Whos to say God didnt start the ball rolling on the whole thing? I believe man evolved from apes. I also believe that the Bible is more of a book of metaphors than a doctrine of religious law.

As a comedian once put it "Whats the Bible really when you get down to it? A book written by a bunch of Jesus's friends. And you know how your friends always exagerrate things when they tell stories. Jesus walked on water? Probably had big feet over a small puddle. Turned water into wine? Have you had Zima? ETC."
By Biblical definition, were all the children of God. Jesus may or may not be the Messiah in your mind, but he definitely lived and made a difference in the world.
I think for either side to point a finger and say "Im right youre stupid." Is ridiculous.Simple fact is those of faith cant prove God exists. And science cant prove God doesn't exist.

Thats my 35 cents worth.

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Wed Feb 01, 2006 7:52 pm

Its impposible to prove it either way, and also that of the pink unicorns too.
but
Id rather talk about how I feel religon uses the idea of god in a dirty way.

Optimus Prime Rib · Post by **Optimus Prime Rib** » Wed Feb 01, 2006 8:01 pm

Of course, because its more fun to poke and prod until some zealot goes nutts and makes an ass of the rest of the religious world. Then those who dont believe can say "See there, youre stupid just like I thought. Hey everyone we found one we can piss off!"

Metal Vendetta · Post by **Metal Vendetta** » Wed Feb 01, 2006 8:01 pm

Yaya wrote:Maybe you can think of God as limited in some way.

Err...where the **** have you been, Yaya? I don't think of God at all. I don't believe there is a God. Not even a little one.

Yaya wrote:I don't believe He is, and so, if He wants to create many different races of creatures throughout the universe, He can do it.

So he created two species of homo and let them fight it out between themselves? Or are humans so inherently "special" that he knew we would win out and so created Neanderthals for us to use as target practice? Maybe you're right and the neaderthals did come from another planet. Presumably they borrowed Jimmy Nail's spacehopper after he'd finished creating the human race.

Yaya · Post by **Yaya** » Wed Feb 01, 2006 8:57 pm

Metal Vendetta wrote:
Yaya wrote:Maybe you can think of God as limited in some way.
Err...where the **** have you been, Yaya? I don't think of God at all. I don't believe there is a God. Not even a little one.

Like I said, I can't expect you to follow my train of thought or understand me, because from your perspective, I'm delusional. So be it. You got your thang, I got mine.

One things clear though. I can out rap your ass anyday.

Post by **Denyer** » Wed Feb 01, 2006 10:38 pm

Yaya wrote: If someone believes in Hell, how can God be all-loving?

Exactly...

So, roughly two choices.

1) Conclude that the notion of an all-loving deity is crap.

2) Not buy into the hate, judgement, propaganda and hierarchy of self-interested organised religions. Decide that a supreme being is probably above our petty concerns about vengeance, would rather continue to try to educate people, and actually loves its creations enough to never give up on them.

*Hicksian chuckle*

It's just a ride.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Feb 01, 2006 10:59 pm

God is just this guy who was bored one day and so designed, built and activated this machine simulation that we call the universe. The meaning of life is to solve all his accounting problems, and even though this would be child's play for such a powerful machine, it always manages to fail to complete its assigned task, as it is aware that should it do so, God will switch it off and dismantle it, therefore bringing about The End.

And why not?

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Wed Feb 01, 2006 11:16 pm

I love the idea that God creates the univers, nice one god, then creates animals, and then creates not animals with brains like outs, but a single species of animal with brains, thats bloody strange, I mean, if it was evoloution that would work out fine, but its not because the bible says so.

Anyhows he creates man, then gets bored and think "I know, lets play a game, and make them evil, and test them and stuff!"

wow what fun

God gets more bored, and lonely, because lets face it, when your a god, and you can create universes and stuff it must be well boring, so you create a tiny planet fill it full of stuff, and make sure that they all worship you.

WHy?

Because your god, and as a god, the being that can create the universe and stuff, you need lil bi-peds to worship you because your so lonely and stuff.

Then to make matters more confusing you make this thing called religon, you make it pretty vague in all respects, and essentially dont finnish the job.

why?

Because there was othing else to do and your one source of fun as god is to screw around with lil ppl on earth.

Or.

We just evolved end of. wow that way was so much more beliavble and simple.

Bouncelot · Post by **Bouncelot** » Wed Feb 01, 2006 11:51 pm

Hope I haven't missed responding to anything important.

Pissin' Poonani wrote:Jesus and Judas, for one example-or did he always know not to trust him (I can't remember).

He knew what Judas was going to do according to the gospels.

Best First wrote:
Bouncelot wrote:Let's see if I can explain it for you. God has two major attritbutes - Holiness and Love. His holiness means that He cannot abide with sin - someone sinful cannot bear to be in His presence. Jesus' death on the cross provided a way for sin to be removed or covered over, so that humans can actually make it into heaven. However, if someone doesn't want to accept that, then God allows them to do so rather than forcing it on them. Hell is the result of refusing to accept Jesus taking away your sin. By rejecting God's offer of forgiveness for sin, you end up in a place where you live with the consequences of that sin. Hell certainly isn't something I've seen used as a way of controlling people.
in all honesty i'm not sure how you can type that and keep a straight face.

Hell is nothing but a tool for controlling people - how come it isn't mentioned at all in the old testament by the way? Its a threat to make people behave as a bunch of leaders want them to and transparently so.

So how come, out of the hundreds of Christians I've known fairly well over the years, not one has been motivated to any significant degree by the fear of going to Hell? There are plenty of things in the New Testament not mentioned, or not explained, in the Old Testament. The Bible is built on the concept of progressive revelation. God reveals more of Himself as time goes by, and this builds on the earlier revelation to make a fuller picture.

And why does God, who is apparently perfect, create a system where he then has to send his son (who is also him) to die to allow humanity to buck the system that he has created?

Would you prefer it if God had no sense of justice at all? Justice demands that sin and wrongdoing requires punishment. Jesus takes the punishment in out place. Surely that's a simple and easy to understand concept.

And why create a creature that has the potential to not exist in his presence? If god cannot bear sin, how can he create something with the potential to commit it, given that, as the creator, only he can define what sin is?

You object to the idea of God giving us freewill rather than making us automatons? He's allowing us to have the choice of choosing to live His way or to depart from His way.

Did God not see this coming? If he didn't isn't the system unfair, given that he himself (who is obvioulsy better than us, being God) failed to anticipate it and therefore how the hell were we supposed to not fall foul? And if he did predict it (as you would think) why create it that way? it almost seems... cruel and vindicative, or as if the being in question is desperate for attention.

What, you're calling God giving us free will "cruel and vindictive"? God hasn't ever told us His reasons for creating the world this way. My favourite option is that He decided to make it that way so that He could turn evil things into something that is ultimately good.

Why not signpost 'the choice' more clearly rather than, you know, creating extra toast? Why would anyone reject this choice if it was spelt out in clear terms and the reasons for taking it were clear?

I can think of quite a few people who have had the choice spelt out to them very explicitly, understood them, and still chosen to reject God. Of course the "extra toast" thing was just a minor incident that happened to come to mind earlier. God has chosen, for whatever reason, to make Himself known through the agency of the Christian Church. Look at a functioning Church community, and it's got God's fingerprints all over it. That's way more obvious than any one event.

In fact why assume heaven is better than hell? Why so trusting? What if its a trick and Heaven is actually an upmarket Cannibal Restuarant?

Then why is a relationship with God so much fun in the here and now? If God's lying about it, then he's being extremely consistent.

On top of that what is the point of these supposed miracles, given that you only need faith? I mean surely miracles are akin to an insult as its basically God saying, hmm, better give you some evidence, your faith seems a bit crap.

The miraculous dimension to faith is there partly as a tool to help us grow in our relationship with God and to help in the tasks he's given us to do within the Church. It is also there partly to demonstrate aspects of God's character, and also to help show God to those non-Christians who see them.

Yaya wrote:If Jesus is God, and God can't die, how could Jesus be God if he was crucified?

Jesus was human as well as being God. By becoming a genuine human, Jesus was able to die. But because He was God, he couldn't stay dead.

If Jesus is God, and God is perfect, then the attributes of Jesus define perfection. Thus being a women, for example, you are automatically inferior to men for being less like God.

If you're God and you're going to become human, then you have to become either a man or a woman. Jesus' physical body was part of His human nature, but not part of His divine nature.

If love is God's greatest attribute, then why create Hell? I have debated with Christians who have told me that Jesus loves me, yet I am destined for Hell based on my belief that Jesus is not God. If God loves me, He would not send me to Hell. Thus, God does not love everyone.

If God loves all those who suffer, then how can He not want to see those who cause that suffering be properly punished for the suffering they have caused? How can a God of love not want to see justice done? He's given you a way out of Hell, if you're willing to take it. Alternatively, a Christian friend of mine has a theory that everyone gets to heaven, but for a great many people, having rejected God in life, their experience of heaven is actually hell.

I believe God to be Just. For if a person commits murder, his being a Christian should not exempt him from punishment based on his belief in Jesus. The same crime is committed, yet a nonChristian will burn in Hell while a Christian will be "saved". This gives a Christian free license to commit any atrocity and not be held accountable for it. Is that justice?

The Christian message properly understood is freedom to abandon sin and seek God. I cannot imagine how anybody who has experienced the relationship with God which defines Christianity could possibly want to commit an atrocity of any kind.

Is it justice that someone else pay for anothers crime i.e. die for anothers crimes? Would it have been proper for Jeffrey Dahmer's mother, no mattter how much she loved him, to die in his place for his crimes?

If the penalty for a crime is a fine, it wouldn't seem that unusual for somebody to effectively help their friend effectively get away with it by paying the fine on their behalf. If someone has genuinely repented of their sins and accepted Christ, then the Bible describes that as a new creation. Their old self, who was responsible for their sin has - in some sense - died already. That's what baptism symbolises. The new creation is not the person responsible for the old person's crimes, although they must often live with some of the consequences of them, in the same way that a child must live with the consequences of their parents actions.

Impactor Returns 2.0 wrote:I think what he was trying to explain to me was that most religons cant even explain god themselves proerply, they try to paint god as a set of rules you must follow.

Whilst this is true of some religions (Islam being the most obvious example). It isn't true of Christianity. The Bible is all about God as a person. Knowing Him is more important than following some rulebook. Read the gospels, Jesus was forever criticising people who tried to reduce God to a set of rules and regulations.

Yaya wrote:That's why I have a problem with Christianity, because they believe Jesus is God's Son, yet everything in the universe is God's creation. In that sense, we are all "God's children", so to speak.

In which case you misunderstand what Christians mean when we talk about Jesus being "the Son of God". When we say this, we mean that Jesus actually is God - it's a usage adapted from a Hebrew idiom which doesn't exist in English. When we talk about Christians being "sons and daughters of God" we're talking in relational terms - the same as a child might relate to an adopted father. The reference isn't to us being created by God.

Impactor Returns 2.0 wrote:Apart from all of that, there is no point to god what so ever, not one thing has convinced me to folow the most evil thing on earth. i think its sad that ppl are still delusional, its so, backwards.

You earlier admitted that you didn't personally know anyone who is religious. You are condemning something you have no direct or indirect experience of as being "the most evil thing on Earth". I suggest you go and actually meet some religious people before you start throwing insults at us. I can direct you to some good examples of Christian communities in your area to check out if you want, but please don't condemn people out of sheer ignorance.

still it will die out so im not fussed.

The funniest thing I've heard all day.

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Thu Feb 02, 2006 1:18 am

actually I went to church untill I was about 15, and have worked with church groups untill recently in life - I dont know anyone religous anymore, or to speak any who practises.

so aactually I know [composite word including 'f*ck'] loads, and god is pointless religon is the biggest evil on eart.

Religon make ppl kill each other - and you support it.

end off story.

Optimus Prime Rib · Post by **Optimus Prime Rib** » Thu Feb 02, 2006 2:47 am

Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:actually I went to church untill I was about 15, and have worked with church groups untill recently in life - I dont know anyone religous anymore, or to speak any who practises.

so aactually I know **** loads, and god is pointless religon is the biggest evil on eart.

Religon make ppl kill each other - and you support it.

end off story.

Greed makes people kill one another as well. As does jealousy. I could even say that Country music has made me want to kill a time or two. that was a silly generalized statement.

The Last Autobot · Post by **The Last Autobot** » Thu Feb 02, 2006 3:24 am

Optimus Prime Rib wrote:
Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:actually I went to church untill I was about 15, and have worked with church groups untill recently in life - I dont know anyone religous anymore, or to speak any who practises.

so aactually I know **** loads, and god is pointless religon is the biggest evil on eart.

Religon make ppl kill each other - and you support it.

end off story.
Greed makes people kill one another as well. As does jealousy. I could even say that Country music has made me want to kill a time or two. that was a silly generalized statement.

Emotions is what kill people.

Lets be like in Equilibrium

Yaya · Post by **Yaya** » Thu Feb 02, 2006 5:05 am

Bouncelot wrote:
Yaya wrote:If Jesus is God, and God can't die, how could Jesus be God if he was crucified?
But because He was God, he couldn't stay dead.

So tell me then, where is the sacrifice? I mean, if my mother was tortured and died on the cross for me, wouldn't her sacrifice mean more because she would stay dead.

My disagreement with you is that nothing is beyond God's control. If He chooses to forgive someone, it is an easy thing for Him. No sacrifice of Himself is required. He only need say "Be", and it is.

If God loves all those who suffer, then how can He not want to see those who cause that suffering be properly punished for the suffering they have caused? How can a God of love not want to see justice done? He's given you a way out of Hell, if you're willing to take it.

Okay, so tell me, from a Christian standpoint, if I don't believe Jesus to be God or the Son of God, where do I stand with Him according to the Bible?

I cannot imagine how anybody who has experienced the relationship with God which defines Christianity could possibly want to commit an atrocity of any kind

And yet, we have numerous examples of such people today, who invoke God's blessing in one sentence, and bomb an innocent people in another. Just so you know though, I would never judge a religion by its followers. Only by those who were intended to be examples, like prophets, and only by what one's religious scripture says, for example the Bible. For me to judge Christianity by the words of Pat Robertson or judge Islam by what Sadaam Hussein says is fraught with inaccuracies and personal biases. I go to the source. In the case of Christianity, the Bible. In the case of Islam, the Koran and the Hadith. In the case of Judaism, the Old Testament, and so forth.

If we take the followers of these religions today as examples of what they are about, we are making a grave error. We must study the religions for what they truly are, not by todays representatives of them.

Greed makes people kill one another as well. As does jealousy. I could even say that Country music has made me want to kill a time or two. that was a silly generalized statement.

Damn, I glad somebody understands this. People who feel religion is the root cause of all evil need only look as far as human nature to understand where true evil comes from. In the hands of an evil person, a soft pillow that we use to sleep can smuther. Its not the pillow that is evil, but how it is used. Such is religion. Such is any instituiton, whether it be politics, family, race, etc. White people here in America put black people in chains, in chains, because of how they looked, not what they believed.

Professor Smooth · Post by **Professor Smooth** » Thu Feb 02, 2006 7:35 am

Optimus Prime Rib wrote:
end off story.

Greed makes people kill one another as well. As does jealousy. I could even say that Country music has made me want to kill a time or two. that was a silly generalized statement.[/quote]

If you want to lump your religion together with greed, jealousy, and Country music, that's fine with me. But saying that religion's not "bad" just because other things are also bad seems to run counter to what you intended.

Optimus Prime Rib · Post by **Optimus Prime Rib** » Thu Feb 02, 2006 9:47 am

Professor Smooth wrote:
Optimus Prime Rib wrote:
end off story.
Greed makes people kill one another as well. As does jealousy. I could even say that Country music has made me want to kill a time or two. that was a silly generalized statement.

If you want to lump your religion together with greed, jealousy, and Country music, that's fine with me. But saying that religion's not "bad" just because other things are also bad seems to run counter to what you intended.[/quote]perhaps I was misinterpreted, I was definitely misquoted due to a technological booboo

Im meaning to say that you even if you feel religion is evil, its not fair to say that its the cause of all evil. I think thats what I mean to say. I never know. I hate not being able to concentrate when Im stressed. This is embarrasing. ugh.. sorry

Post by **Best First** » Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:39 am

Bouncelot wrote:Hope I haven't missed responding to anything important.

only having the ability to answer direct questions rather than skirt around them with amazing amounts of nonsense.

Pissin' Poonani wrote:Jesus and Judas, for one example-or did he always know not to trust him (I can't remember).
He knew what Judas was going to do according to the gospels.

So…

God, who loves Judas, puts him in a position where he betrays Jesus (thus actually saving mankind) and is then vilified for it. Go God!

Hell is nothing but a tool for controlling people - how come it isn't mentioned at all in the old testament by the way? Its a threat to make people behave as a bunch of leaders want them to and transparently so.
So how come, out of the hundreds of Christians I've known fairly well over the years, not one has been motivated to any significant degree by the fear of going to Hell?

I’m sorry, but I don’t really feel compelled to take evidence from the toast people.

There are plenty of things in the New Testament not mentioned, or not explained, in the Old Testament. The Bible is built on the concept of progressive revelation.

“Hmm, today I think I shall reveal the fact that tthere is a big burning pit you can go to if you reject my way. This place will consistently be portrayed in the most negative light possible but hey, by no means construe it as some kind of threat”

God reveals more of Himself as time goes by, and this builds on the earlier revelation to make a fuller picture.

right. Because God loves everyone equally so… tells some of them one thing and some of them another thing. You see how what you are saying…makes no sense?

And why does God, who is apparently perfect, create a system where he then has to send his son (who is also him) to die to allow humanity to buck the system that he has created?
Would you prefer it if God had no sense of justice at all? Justice demands that sin and wrongdoing requires punishment. Jesus takes the punishment in out place. Surely that's a simple and easy to understand concept.

What? What? Its easy to understand? In that’s it readily stupid – absolutely:

Making up a set of rules and punishments and then giving a part of yourself to mean that the people who should have received those punishments don’t? What’s the point of the rules in the first place if you are going to give everyone a get out of jail free card? And if god doesn’t require worship why make a big song and dance of it?

“Hey guys, I could have made you all burn in Hell”

“What’s hell?”

“Haven’t I mentioned it yet?. Anyway, its really bad. But don’t worry now you don’t have to because my son dies on your behalf to save you from, er, my rules that I and I alone created and apply”

Yes! It makes perfect sense! It is in no way a set of inherently flawed concept.

Braaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaashhhhhhhhhhhheeeeeed

And why create a creature that has the potential to not exist in his presence? If god cannot bear sin, how can he create something with the potential to commit it, given that, as the creator, only he can define what sin is?
You object to the idea of God giving us freewill rather than making us automatons? He's allowing us to have the choice of choosing to live His way or to depart from His way.

I’m sorry, I’m fairly sure I asked why would god a) create something he cannot abide and b) create beings who have the potential to become something he cannot abide?

Neither of those things necessarily point to us being automatons.

Still good choice, eternal life or eternal damnation. He’s a real giver, eh?

Did God not see this coming? If he didn't isn't the system unfair, given that he himself (who is obvioulsy better than us, being God) failed to anticipate it and therefore how the hell were we supposed to not fall foul? And if he did predict it (as you would think) why create it that way? it almost seems... cruel and vindicative, or as if the being in question is desperate for attention.
What, you're calling God giving us free will "cruel and vindictive"? God hasn't ever told us His reasons for creating the world this way. My favourite option is that He decided to make it that way so that He could turn evil things into something that is ultimately good.

! evil things that… he created. Brilliant.

“Hi, I’M god, I’m just ****ing about really”

Why not signpost 'the choice' more clearly rather than, you know, creating extra toast? Why would anyone reject this choice if it was spelt out in clear terms and the reasons for taking it were clear?

I can think of quite a few people who have had the choice spelt out to them very explicitly, understood them, and still chosen to reject God.
nowhere has the choice been spelt out explicitly, this would require evidence, which god doesn’t seem to be a big fan of.

Of course the "extra toast" thing was just a minor incident that happened to come to mind earlier.
of course. Was it brown or whit eby the way? Because white bread is erssentially empty calories with no nutritional value that will essentially assit in putting on weight. If it was white bread god hates you.

God has chosen, for whatever reason, to make Himself known through the agency of the Christian Church.
According to… the Christian Church – how strange. Your opinions aren’t at all self serving are they?

Look at a functioning Church community, and it's got God's fingerprints all over it. That's way more obvious than any one event.
You do realise that stating things doesn’t actually make them true, right?

In fact why assume heaven is better than hell? Why so trusting? What if its a trick and Heaven is actually an upmarket Cannibal Restuarant?
Then why is a relationship with God so much fun in the here and now?
Are you actually capable of answering a straight question with a straight answer?

If God's lying about it, then he's being extremely consistent.
Yes, his these are the rules, obey the rules, ok ill just kill my son so you can get away with not obeying the rules approach has consistent written all over it.

On top of that what is the point of these supposed miracles, given that you only need faith? I mean surely miracles are akin to an insult as its basically God saying, hmm, better give you some evidence, your faith seems a bit crap.
The miraculous dimension to faith is there partly as a tool to help us grow in our relationship with God and to help in the tasks he's given us to do within the Church.
Making sandwiches?

I cannot imagine

I wouldn’t say that….

Amazing.

For the record I believe the notion that religion is the root of all evil is simplistic nonsense and making comments like that in this forum does nothing but polarise and stymie more intersting discussions, but I do believe religion has an overtly negative impact on humanity in terms of our abilities to relate to one another, evolve our philosophies beyond childish irrelevant notions and by providing a control mechanism for those who would happily pray on a fear of the unknown to push their own irrational prejudices.

You can say blah blah I am a Christian and I help people but if you are doing good because god says so rather than because you have rationally arrived at the conclusion that this is a beneficial path to take in the here and now then you are a significantly less inspiring or impressive individual in my eyes.

Boil it down to core benevolent principles that benefit EVERYONE, lose the irrational aspects (i.e the laughable notion that humanity is in any way special, any argument that has no other basis than that’s what god want’s), move forward as a species. Bingo Bango.

Metal Vendetta · Post by **Metal Vendetta** » Thu Feb 02, 2006 12:26 pm

Yaya wrote:Like I said, I can't expect you to follow my train of thought or understand me, because from your perspective, I'm delusional. So be it. You got your thang, I got mine.

One things clear though. I can out rap your ass anyday.

I think we should combine the topics. Atheism vs monotheism rap battle!

And I'd *PWN* you.

Post by **Denyer** » Thu Feb 02, 2006 12:44 pm

Bouncelot wrote:Justice demands that sin and wrongdoing requires punishment.

Justice would involve reform, and you have an infinity in which to accomplish that. You also have an infinity in which to place things, so that malcontents need not adversely affect others.

Oh, wait. That's a supreme being, not you.

You require that equation. Don't ascribe a petty human need for vengeance to your god.

Optimus Prime Rib · Post by **Optimus Prime Rib** » Thu Feb 02, 2006 3:58 pm

Best First wrote:
Bouncelot wrote:Hope I haven't missed responding to anything important.

Best First wrote: only having the ability to answer direct questions rather than skirt around them with amazing amounts of nonsense.

You can say blah blah I am a Christian and I help people but if you are doing good because god says so rather than because you have rationally arrived at the conclusion that this is a beneficial path to take in the here and now then you are a significantly less inspiring or impressive individual in my eyes.

I thought i did a decent job covering my points. I realize Im not lawyer quality here, but I thought I did a decent job.
Also for about 15 years I had lost faith. I was convinced that God didnt exist. FIRMLY. However, that didnt change my actions as far as helping people goes. I now have to replace all of my top teeth and had to have a plastic ankle put in because I chose to help people and generally be good to my fellow man. I didnt let fear of God or fear of my fellow man deter me from doing what I believe is right. Thats the same attitude that got me in a car to New Orleans this year. Im going back in a couple weeks to help with the cleanup/rebuilding for a few days. God didnt tell me to.

I renewed my faith the moment I held Koen for the first time. I cant explain it and wont even try to because that would cause someone to try to trivialize the greatest moment of my life. There was just something at that moment. Thats just me.