Kobe Drops 81

Metal Vendetta · Post by **Metal Vendetta** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 11:17 am

Best First wrote:Last Autobot - if you can't see how Maradonna's actions undermine his skill you are missing the point of sport and sportsmanship.

To be fair, this isn't just LA - my housemate (German, of course) tells me frequently how Maradona is the best player the world has ever produced. We disagree on this.

Post by **Best First** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 12:00 pm

i don't recal pele ever having to cheat to win...

The Last Autobot · Post by **The Last Autobot** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 5:24 pm

Best First wrote:i don't recal pele ever having to cheat to win...

Well Pele was really the best player of the World.

Maradona was just a great player with a lot of problems, but that doesnt alter all the great things he did for the sport. Did it?

And definitely Brazil is the best team. By the numbers and history, the rest is (.)less.

And Impactor as obviously you keep record of everything you can care explaining all your factorial analysis points to me.

Argentina and Uruguay both have poorer records than European sides so using them to state that all South American teams are better is idiotic.

How so Argentina has poorer record than Europe? In which terms?

And I didnt put them to show that All southamerican teams are better than european but to state that England Football is not better than all Southamerican football as Impactor graphically put in his post

English footy pees on south american football because... not worth the explenation really

See?

By showing some statistics.

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 7:12 pm

your still missing the point, you must have mental problems, sorry but I just cant help you anymore on this matter.

And BF, I agree, that was the point I was making.

The Last Autobot · Post by **The Last Autobot** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 7:17 pm

Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:your still missing the point, you must have mental problems, sorry but I just cant help you anymore on this matter.

And BF, I agree, that was the point I was making.

Ingrained in several acting outs, really.

Maradona cheated ergo English Football is better than Southamerican.

You definitely would be very interesting in a word association therapy.

Post by **Best First** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 10:10 pm

The Last Autobot wrote: Maradona was just a great player with a lot of problems, but that doesnt alter all the great things he did for the sport. Did it?

of course it does. Like i say, if you don't see how some of his actions taint his achievments you are missing the point of sport. Its not just winning, its how you win.

i love it when you play the psychology card by the way.

I think you have the wrong end of the stick on what he is saying though, so, um... oops.

The Last Autobot · Post by **The Last Autobot** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 10:40 pm

Best First wrote:
The Last Autobot wrote: Maradona was just a great player with a lot of problems, but that doesnt alter all the great things he did for the sport. Did it?
of course it does. Like i say, if you don't see how some of his actions taint his achievments you are missing the point of sport. Its not just winning, its how you win.

i love it when you play the psychology card by the way. I think you have the wrong end of the stick on what he is saying though, so, um... oops.

Yes, I know he made a lot of mistakes in his life. But one act of cheating(who incidentally was against you

) dont destroy everything else. That would be an inadecuate generalization.

Its like saying that all the irony and sarcasm your portray in almost everything you do, affects negatively -in any way- the great and noble person you are.

Post by **Best First** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 10:09 am

The Last Autobot wrote:
Best First wrote:
The Last Autobot wrote: Maradona was just a great player with a lot of problems, but that doesnt alter all the great things he did for the sport. Did it?
of course it does. Like i say, if you don't see how some of his actions taint his achievments you are missing the point of sport. Its not just winning, its how you win.

i love it when you play the psychology card by the way. I think you have the wrong end of the stick on what he is saying though, so, um... oops.
Yes, I know he made a lot of mistakes in his life. But one act of cheating(who incidentally was against you ) dont destroy everything else. That would be an inadecuate generalization.

Its like saying that all the irony and sarcasm your portray in almost everything you do, affects negatively -in any way- the great and noble person you are.

that would assume that irony and sarcasm are negative traists.

anyway - you are still missing the point - it does not 'destroy' his positive contributions, but it does damage them, and lead one to question wether he can be considered a great 'sportsman' rather than just someone who is very skilled, because he does not embody what sport is about.

Do your eally think we should hail people who have unapologetically cheated as role models?

Optimus Prime Rib · Post by **Optimus Prime Rib** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 12:34 am

Best First wrote:i don't recal pele ever having to cheat to win...

Thats because you never played him in Street Fighter II.. the bastard

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 1:38 am

Optimus Prime Rib wrote:
Best First wrote:i don't recal pele ever having to cheat to win...
Thats because you never played him in Street Fighter II.. the bastard

I hated that 'total football ninja' power he always spams, its so un sportsman like!

The Last Autobot · Post by **The Last Autobot** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 5:06 am

Best First wrote:
The Last Autobot wrote:
Best First wrote: of course it does. Like i say, if you don't see how some of his actions taint his achievments you are missing the point of sport. Its not just winning, its how you win.

i love it when you play the psychology card by the way. I think you have the wrong end of the stick on what he is saying though, so, um... oops.
Yes, I know he made a lot of mistakes in his life. But one act of cheating(who incidentally was against you ) dont destroy everything else. That would be an inadecuate generalization.

Its like saying that all the irony and sarcasm your portray in almost everything you do, affects negatively -in any way- the great and noble person you are.
that would assume that irony and sarcasm are negative traists.

anyway - you are still missing the point - it does not 'destroy' his positive contributions, but it does damage them, and lead one to question wether he can be considered a great 'sportsman' rather than just someone who is very skilled, because he does not embody what sport is about.

Do your eally think we should hail people who have unapologetically cheated as role models?

Yes, Irony and sarcasm are negative traits in a normal communication relationship, they are part of a style of communicating with others called Passive Aggresive. Instead of saying something to someone in an assertive way -or direct- you use other means to imply it. Its usual in people who understimate the others or want to show their superiority.

And speaking of Maradona, maybe he is not a sportsman or a role model (in some ways) but he definitely was a great soccer player from my point of view.

Post by **Best First** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 10:35 am

The Last Autobot wrote: Yes, Irony and sarcasm are negative traits in a normal communication relationship, they are part of a style of communicating with others called Passive Aggresive. Instead of saying something to someone in an assertive way -or direct- you use other means to imply it. Its usual in people who understimate the others or want to show their superiority.

irony and sarcasm are only ever used in a passive aggressive fashion. right...

over simplifying is good mmm-kay?

The Last Autobot · Post by **The Last Autobot** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 3:13 pm

Best First wrote:
The Last Autobot wrote: Yes, Irony and sarcasm are negative traits in a normal communication relationship, they are part of a style of communicating with others called Passive Aggresive. Instead of saying something to someone in an assertive way -or direct- you use other means to imply it. Its usual in people who understimate the others or want to show their superiority.
irony and sarcasm are only ever used in a passive aggressive fashion. right...

In a normal communication relationship, yes

Metal Vendetta · Post by **Metal Vendetta** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 3:55 pm

The Last Autobot wrote:In a normal communication relationship, yes

Define normal.

Oops, you can't.

The Last Autobot · Post by **The Last Autobot** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 3:59 pm

Metal Vendetta wrote:
The Last Autobot wrote:In a normal communication relationship, yes
Define normal.

Oops, you can't.

The Normal criteria is set on the basis of three components in any given society

Biological
Cultural
Statiscal

Metal Vendetta · Post by **Metal Vendetta** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:08 pm

That's the lamest answer I think I've ever seen. If I have a "statistically normal" relationship with someone I can't be sarcastic to them? If I'm "biologically normal" irony is a big no-no? Please try and make a little sense, although I do thank you for keeping your answer brief

There's no such thing as a normal relationship. Everyone is individual and when you put two individuals together, you get unexpected results. Is a "normal communication relationship", say, like me and my best friend have where we take the piss out of each other all the time? Is it like me and the missus where we are very affectionate yet call each other the rudest insults we can think of? Is it talking to someone across the internet on a Transformers message board? What's "normal" about that?

Man, I don't even know where to start.

Brendocon · Post by **Brendocon** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:31 pm

Statistically speaking, my normal relationship contains incessent sarcasm, in both directions.

Based on available data, relating to behaviour within my local culture.

The Last Autobot · Post by **The Last Autobot** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:31 pm

Metal Vendetta wrote:That's the lamest answer I think I've ever seen. If I have a "statistically normal" relationship with someone I can't be sarcastic to them? If I'm "biologically normal" irony is a big no-no? Please try and make a little sense, although I do thank you for keeping your answer brief

There's no such thing as a normal relationship. Everyone is individual and when you put two individuals together, you get unexpected results. Is a "normal communication relationship", say, like me and my best friend have where we take the piss out of each other all the time? Is it like me and the missus where we are very affectionate yet call each other the rudest insults we can think of? Is it talking to someone across the internet on a Transformers message board? What's "normal" about that?

Man, I don't even know where to start.

Well everything you say is more than the words you use, theres a lot of unconscious reasons behind, also in the way you treat each other. Maybe you are "rude" to someone in an "affectionate" way but theres more that you dont see in first instance, or maybe you were treated that way and learned it as the pattern to follow.

And the "normal" criteria is set from the general population standar. So if theres -for instance- a disease that usually affects newborns ("statistically") that is affecting a 30 year old man, then its a not normal situation.

If a woman starts her menstrual cycle when she is 45 then its a not normal situation (from a biological way).

If in your society everybody use clothes to dress and you use leaves then you are not normal from a cultural point of view.

And returning to the previous point I said normal communication relationship from a day to day basis. Irony and sarcasm are useful ways of critisicing or emphasizing things but when are used in everything you do then stablish a passive aggresive pattern of dealing with the rest.

Metal Vendetta · Post by **Metal Vendetta** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:49 pm

The Last Autobot wrote:And returning to the previous point I said normal communication relationship from a day to day basis. Irony and sarcasm are useful ways of critisicing or emphasizing things but when are used in everything you do then stablish a passive aggresive pattern of dealing with the rest.

When irony and sarcasm are used exclusively then, yeah, that's kind of abnormal - see "Ray, the man afflicted with a sarcastic tone of voice" for more details. Just as it would be abnormal to never, ever use them. Most people (the "statistically normal") will use irony, sarcasm and other ways of speaking, often to strengthen a relationship. They seem to get the crazy idea that it's a bit of wordplay or a joke. So for you to say that sarcasm and irony should form no part of a "normal communication relationship" (whatever that is supposed to be, anyway) is just plain wrong. Just because you personally think that they are negative traits doesn't mean you can preach to us and tell us that perfectly ordinary behaviour has no place in a "normal" relationship, because:
A) I don't see sarcasm or irony as negative
B) I don't believe in such a thing as a normal relationship
C) They clearly do form a part of lots, if not the majority, of relationships

The Last Autobot · Post by **The Last Autobot** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 5:10 pm

Metal Vendetta wrote:
The Last Autobot wrote:And returning to the previous point I said normal communication relationship from a day to day basis. Irony and sarcasm are useful ways of critisicing or emphasizing things but when are used in everything you do then stablish a passive aggresive pattern of dealing with the rest.
Just because you personally think that they are negative traits doesn't mean you can preach to us and tell us that perfectly ordinary behaviour has no place in a "normal" relationship, because:
A) I don't see sarcasm or irony as negative
B) I don't believe in such a thing as a normal relationship

I don't personally think they are negative traits but thats something you accomplish when you analize a speech and see the effects of what you say in the rest of people. And dont believe me, read any psychodinamical or styles of communication book.

And, saying that you usually do something doesnt mean its adequate. I personally am very sarcastic and ironical but that doesnt mean I justify my behaviour, being assertive would be a much better way of dealing with people.

edit: And in G1 theres already your Beastbox answer.

Metal Vendetta · Post by **Metal Vendetta** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 5:42 pm

The Last Autobot wrote:edit: And in G1 theres already your Beastbox answer.

Ooh thanks

I've never been particularly convinced by psychology though, not since I lived with a psychology graduate who was easily the most ****ed-up person I've ever met. And I can think of plenty of instances when a sarcastic statement or request would generate a more postive outcome - it all depends on the person in question. Some people react well to being spoken to in a positive way, others may feel that they are being patronised or talked down to.

In some professions, sarcasm is almost mandatory; I can't imagine a drill sergeant saying "Do you know, I do believe your hair is getting a little long, perhaps you might like to run along to the barber's and get a trim?" He's going to say "Are you in pain? You should be 'cause I am standin' on your hair!"

Post by **Best First** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 6:37 pm

The Last Autobot wrote: And returning to the previous point I said normal communication relationship from a day to day basis. Irony and sarcasm are useful ways of critisicing or emphasizing things but when are used in everything you do then stablish a passive aggresive pattern of dealing with the rest.

a) that's not what you oiginally said.

b) they are alwso useful for just being amusing and forming bonds theough humour, thus actually facillitating communication

c) "normal communication" (or statistcially average communication as you seem mean) in one country (e.g. one that is (perhaps unfairly) renowned for not having a sense of irony) will not inform patterns of normal comunication in another country, given a different social and cultural context.

sarcasm is more or less mandatory amongst anyone aged 10 upwards in the UK.