The fall and sorta rise of Star Wars. My take.

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Post by Legion » Mon Nov 14, 2005 4:36 pm

Metal Vendetta wrote:
Legion wrote:i've heard, rather worryingly, rumours that there are plans to put a short Paply scene into some future version of EpIV to go before Tarkin mentions that the Emperor has "dissolved the Senate permenantly"...
i get the feeling that, should this ever come to pass, it will stick out like a sore thumb and be a bit ****... much like the whole Jabba scene...
Is this the version where he dubs every single Stormtrooper with an annoying Kiwi accent to match the clones in Eps 1-3?

"Leck sair! Drayads!"
"Thise err net thar drayads werr lecking fear. Moive elaong. Moive elaong."
*shudders* probably...

although i'm still hoping for that rumoured scene from ESB where we see the AT-AT's being loaded/deployed into/from dropships... however i doubt we'll ever see that...

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Post by spiderfrommars » Mon Nov 14, 2005 4:51 pm

I like the new Emperor scene in ESB.

I agree Lucas must have made some of it up as he went along (that Luke/Leia snog in ESB is nasty), but the Old Republic/Emperor/fall of Vader thing had been outlined briefly before he set sail with ANH.

Yoda was new because originally Obi-wan survived ANH and then trained Luke in the next film. When Lucas realised Obi-wan had nothing to do for the second half of ANH he killed him off instead.
Pissin' Poonani wrote:One glaring ommision that proves how utterly useless Lucas has become:

He tries, and fails miserably, to inject humour into AOTC via C3PO and his "Die Jedi Dogs!/This is such a drag" crap, when all he had to do for instant hilarity and the possible salvation of the trilogy, was to have Jangos head fall out of the bottom of his helmet when Boba picks it up off of the arena floor.

Would. Have. Loved. That.
:lol:

Though I feel strongly that it was a gazillion times better than Jar Jar doing 'funny' in Ep 1. The comedy scenes in that film really should have gone to Threepio.

Ever watched the Making Of Phantom Menace on the DVD? Its quite depressing how no one picks up on the multitude of problems staring them in the face. At one point Lucas goes, "Jar Jar is easily the funniest character we've ever had." :(

By the way, re: the Jango scene, if you watch his head fly off in slow motion (after decapitation) you see the shadow of his bonce fall out the helmet.

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Post by Pissin' Poonani » Mon Nov 14, 2005 5:12 pm

spiderfrommars wrote: By the way, re: the Jango scene, if you watch his head fly off in slow motion (after decapitation) you see the shadow of his bonce fall out the helmet.
I hadn't noticed that-I'll keep an eye out for it. :)

Also, it may be just me, but when you first saw the Yoda/Dooku fight did it seem like this awesome Jedi/Sith martial arts style battle, but with each subsequent viewing you realise it's actually just 5 minutes of Yoda jumping around going "Grrrreeaarrrggghhh!"?
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Post by Metal Vendetta » Mon Nov 14, 2005 5:57 pm

spiderfrommars wrote:Ever watched the Making Of Phantom Menace on the DVD? Its quite depressing how no one picks up on the multitude of problems staring them in the face. At one point Lucas goes, "Jar Jar is easily the funniest character we've ever had." :(
Christ on a bike, is that the one where he wheels in every director chum he can find, points them at the camera and gets them to recite through their beard: "George is totally ruthless with his own material. If it doesn't fit the flow of the story then he cuts it. George is the best film-maker ever. Can I go now?"

It makes me cry just to think that this buffoon edited out the first Maul/Qui-Gon duel on Tattooine but then left in the bit when the big wobbly CGI creature farts and Jar-Jar holds his nose going "pyew, pyew". (There is even a longer version of that specific scene that they show on the DVD, showing how they edited down the introductions to the pod-racers and they left that bit in, so Lucas obviously thought the farting animal was more important to the plot than introducing characters) Or then there's the bit when Jar-Jar steps in crap and makes a "Bantha poodoo" joke. Or the bit where Jar-Jar tries to eat that frog thing and gets his tongue caught. Or the bit where he gets his mouth stuck in the energy bonds on the pod and goes "flibbleibbleibbleibble"...I'm sorry, I'm going to have to stop typing, lest my blood literally boil from frustration and anger at this. We could have had an extra lightsaber fight in this movie, instead we got wanked upon from a great height by a huge CGI cock.
I would have waited a ******* eternity for this!!!!
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Post by Best First » Mon Nov 14, 2005 6:30 pm

And another thing!

Why is Darth so cool?

in 4-6 Darth is a one step ahead intergalctic chess playing rebekllion spaying mother flipper. He is cool. He is calculated. He is shockwave with a light sabre.

But Anakin is an emotional goober who never thinks things through, always goes for the quick win, shows off and is more easily manipulated than play dough. And he has crap hair. He is someone from One Tree Hill with a light sabre

So how does he become all John Shaft?

I know you can say 'blah blah 20 years experience' between 3 & 4, but in the interim he is supposed to be hunting down Jedi - how come he doesn't just get gis ass killed because he is clearly, clearly a bit of a moron.

All you would have to say is "If you walk over that 50 foot drop with spikes and poo at the bottom of it i will tell you how to bring your wife back from the dead. And give you a panda pop" and he's off.

pfft.
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Post by Brendocon » Mon Nov 14, 2005 7:59 pm

What do all you people think of the yackety-yack about a live-action SW series set between eps 3 and 4?

Good idea?
Bad idea?
Total cash-in overkill?

I'm more excited about the pending Joss-penned post-s5-of-Angel in-continuity Buffy comic...
Grrr. Argh.

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Post by Obfleur » Mon Nov 14, 2005 8:14 pm

Horrible idea.

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Post by Pissin' Poonani » Mon Nov 14, 2005 10:03 pm

Best First wrote:And another thing!

So how does he become all John Shaft?
"Who's the pan-galactic menace that can take yo head clean off?...VADER!"

Best as I can rationalise it, maybe killing his wife, having his extremities lopped off, then having to spend the rest of his life on a ventilator may have made him think "Ah-maybe it's time for a change in the old attitude-really isn't working out for me the way it currently is". Maybe it was only through losing so much that he finally realised he had to change, or end up deaded.

Possibly, possibly not.

Although, who amongst us wouldn't do absolutely anything for a Panda Pop? Chuck in a bag of KP Space Raiders, and consider that deal well and truely sealed. :)
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Post by KingMob » Tue Nov 15, 2005 7:59 am

Hmm. I've been sneakily reading the new Star Wars novel at work (Rise of Vader or something) in the hope that it might be awesome but....eh.

There's a sequence where Vader goes to Alderaan and gets introduced to Bail Organa - a lot of the book deals with how Vader is introduced to various parts of the Empire and how he is percieved/starts to big up his rep - and that leads into an awful keystone cops type mini-plot where Organa has to stop Vader seeing security images of C3-P0 and R2, not to mention find excuses to keep baby Leia out of his presence.
Thing is, by the scale of events involved, this has to be played completely straight. It's torturous reading.
And what, he does this for the next 20 years?

It's utterly crap reading about how Vader has to be played all the time like some sucka.
That's the thing that I'm displeased with; that the status quo set up for Vader at the end of the film is : Vader is a gimp.

Nooooooooooooooo, indeed.

Oh, and there's a bit in the book in which Vader's internal monologue comments on the Emperor taking disfiguring injuries from Mace, no mention of it being an illusion he dropped...good job everyone's so used to there being little consistency in Star Wars any more.
Or maybe Vader just thinks that and is wrong! Maybe he's being played again! Because obv Vader is a gimp who's always wrong or being decieved now! :|

Oooh, Whedon writing a Buffy comic?

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Post by Legion » Tue Nov 15, 2005 9:31 am

KingMob wrote:Vader is a gimp.
errr, yeah, he is isn't he? :(

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Post by spiderfrommars » Tue Nov 15, 2005 9:58 am

Brendocon wrote:What do all you people think of the yackety-yack about a live-action SW series set between eps 3 and 4?

Good idea?
Bad idea?
Total cash-in overkill?

I'm more excited about the pending Joss-penned post-s5-of-Angel in-continuity Buffy comic...
I'm up for a SW series actually... can't be any worse than some sci-fi out there. However, I'd rather characters like Yoda, Obi-wan, Luke, Leia and Han were left alone in the process... if they can introduce other characters, fair dos.

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Post by Best First » Tue Nov 15, 2005 10:35 am

Legion wrote:
KingMob wrote:Vader is a gimp.
errr, yeah, he is isn't he? :(
yep.

Jar Jar was a smoke screen.
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Post by Metal Vendetta » Tue Nov 15, 2005 11:24 am

KingMob wrote:...an awful keystone cops type mini-plot where Organa has to stop Vader seeing security images of C3-P0 and R2, not to mention find excuses to keep baby Leia out of his presence...And what, he does this for the next 20 years?
Nah, by the start of ANH, Vader and Leia apparently know each other, so at some point they must have met. Even without the force, surely he'd be going, that girl looks just like Padme...
I would have waited a ******* eternity for this!!!!
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Post by spiderfrommars » Tue Nov 15, 2005 11:46 am

Hamill and Fisher do look believably like Christensen and Portman's offspring don't they? :)

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Post by Legion » Tue Nov 15, 2005 11:51 am

Metal Vendetta wrote:
KingMob wrote:...an awful keystone cops type mini-plot where Organa has to stop Vader seeing security images of C3-P0 and R2, not to mention find excuses to keep baby Leia out of his presence...And what, he does this for the next 20 years?
Nah, by the start of ANH, Vader and Leia apparently know each other, so at some point they must have met. Even without the force, surely he'd be going, that girl looks just like Padme...
Maybe that's why he was chasing her at the start of EpIV, after all those years he'd found a padme replacement but she'd been ignoring his calls, so, under the guise of "searching for stolen plans" took his SD out for a cruise to pick her up... :lol:

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Post by Brendocon » Tue Nov 15, 2005 3:31 pm

Pissin' Poonani wrote:Best as I can rationalise it, maybe killing his wife, having his extremities lopped off, then having to spend the rest of his life on a ventilator may have made him think "Ah-maybe it's time for a change in the old attitude-really isn't working out for me the way it currently is". Maybe it was only through losing so much that he finally realised he had to change, or end up deaded.
It's silly, though. The whole point of the prequels was surely to show how he became Vader - not to faff about for eight hours and then end with a character that blatantly isn't yet Vader being crammed into a suit.

Would it have worked better if he'd been crippled in the first act of Ep III and spent the remainder of the film in the costume, becoming increasingly psycho badass?

Or somesuch.

I've written more "hero turns evil" angles than I care to think of (byproduct of plotting the AWF for about two and a half years) and even at my most half-hearted, I would have thrown out the script for Anakin's heel turn...

It's all about gradual shifts and believable factors. Not "he's good, he's tortured, he's confused.... aaaaand he's the most evil man in the galaxy... NOW!"

Say it happened this way around...

- The Jedi tell him he can't be a proper elder.
- He finds out Palpatine is Sidious. He decides to keep the secret, but only in the interim.
- He confides in Padme, who he then sees chatting with Obi-Wan
- He finds that the Jedi know about Palpatine, assumes Padme told them and in a fit of blind rage strikes her down
- He realises what he's done and angsts for a bit before rushing off to warn Palpatine that he's been rumbled
- He walks in on Samuel L Jedi kicking the crap out of Palpy and instinctively goes to his aid. At this point, he's already lost Padme and his trust of the Jedi. He goes all badass on Sammy and kills him himself. Palpy of course was in no danger, and wanted Anakin to do the job because he knew the effect it would have.

And, as if by magic, you have an Anakin who's already lost everything, has sided with Sidious because he's the only person left that he can trust, and has just established himself as a psycho badass by killing Mace Windu.

Which, to me, is far more believable than "OH MY GOD WHAT HAVE I DONE?!" "You've gone evil - go with it." "Mmmm... okay!"

Embracing the dark sid because there were no perceivable options left > doing it because Sidious told him to. All by shuffling the order of events.

Plus it gives another third of the film to show him building on that. And makes him a credible threat to Obi-Wan (as he's already killed Mace), rather than it just being somersaults on lava whilst you wait for Kenobe to give him the kicking that you know is gonna come.

Of course, personally I'd scrap the whole thing and come up with something better, but that's just me...
Grrr. Argh.

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Post by Legion » Tue Nov 15, 2005 3:50 pm

Brendocon wrote: Of course, personally I'd scrap the whole thing and come up with something better, but that's just me...
Totally!

For instance, i'd probably drop TPM. Start of with AOTC as Ep1 (but keep Maul in it but have Dooku in it as ex-Jedi, not yet fallen to Sith). Have Anakin beginning to turn to the darkside at the end of Ep2 (more clone war stuff, introduce Grevious now, Dooku now Sith ) when he learns that Palpy is Sith and then have Ep3 deal with his struggling with his Dark side and doing in Jedi whenever he can before killing Dooku and becoming Palpy's apprentice official, he's then finally cut down to size by Obiwan.

Not enough was made of Vading having "hunted down and betraying" the Jedi in Ep3 for my liking, it was all done by the Clones!!

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Post by Pissin' Poonani » Tue Nov 15, 2005 4:15 pm

Brendocon wrote: post
:up:

Couldn't have said it better. :)

Anakins' journey to the Dark Side was a joke-at no point was I convinced that this whiny, egotistical little moron was ever going to be one of the most evil men the universe would ever see, at least, not in a way that would show respect to the already established character I'd grown up knowing.

The only way for me to rationalise his transformation is to force myself to believe that after all he'd lost he felt he had no choice but to discipline himself and accept the role he'd basically forced himself into-it was either that or die. It's horribly simplistic, and George Lucas is a prize tit for handling it so badly, but I've been a fan since birth (practically), and although Star Wars no longer holds the same meaning for me as it used to, I'd still like to enjoy it rather than hate it-unfortunately, this means in some cases I find myself caught up in trying to rationalise and tie up Lucas' crappy story telling just so I don't give up on it all together.

So yep, I agree Brend-I think anyone other than the actual creator of Star Wars could have made the transformation of Anakin into Vader a convincing one, but unfortunately we're stuck with what we've got-at least until the first of the inevitable 'Special Editions' surfaces.

Mind you, Lucas may have done me a favour in that I care so little about the franchise these days, that I've probably saved a small fortune.
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Post by Metal Vendetta » Tue Nov 15, 2005 4:44 pm

Pissin' Poonani wrote:Mind you, Lucas may have done me a favour in that I care so little about the franchise these days, that I've probably saved a small fortune.
THESE WERE SUPPOSED TO BE THE CHOSEN FILMS!!!
THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO BUILD THE MYTH, NOT DESTROY IT!!!
I would have waited a ******* eternity for this!!!!
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Post by Pissin' Poonani » Tue Nov 15, 2005 4:58 pm

Metal Vendetta wrote: THESE WERE SUPPOSED TO BE THE CHOSEN FILMS!!!
THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO BUILD THE MYTH, NOT DESTROY IT!!!
:lol:

But they're irritating-like sand...
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Post by Legion » Tue Nov 15, 2005 5:03 pm

Metal Vendetta wrote:THESE WERE SUPPOSED TO BE THE CHOSEN FILMS!!!
THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO BUILD THE MYTH, NOT DESTROY IT!!!
:up: :up: :up:

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Post by Best First » Tue Nov 15, 2005 8:12 pm

Pissin' Poonani wrote:
Metal Vendetta wrote: THESE WERE SUPPOSED TO BE THE CHOSEN FILMS!!!
THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO BUILD THE MYTH, NOT DESTROY IT!!!
:lol:

But they're irritating-like sand...
sand is irritating. i wish i could take over the entire universe and obliterate it.

wassat?

er, nowt master yoda, peace and balance and stuff.

alreet then. Wanna Panda Pop?

Yay!

bell! utter bells!
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Post by Pissin' Poonani » Tue Nov 15, 2005 9:30 pm

Best First wrote:
sand is irritating. i wish i could take over the entire universe and obliterate it.

wassat?

er, nowt master yoda, peace and balance and stuff.

alreet then. Wanna Panda Pop?

Yay!

bell! utter bells!
That's unfair-he only had 20+ years to write the prequels.

How many of us could cope with such a demanding deadline?

Actually, you know that wotsit about a roomfull of monkeys with typewriters will eventually type out Shakespeares' plays? Well, I reckon if you stuck George Lucas in a room with a typewriter, he'd just about produce the monkeys' first draft.
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Post by Best First » Tue Nov 15, 2005 11:15 pm

dude.

he'd just write.

Monkey.

And possibly the words

"played by Ahmed Best"
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Post by Pissin' Poonani » Tue Nov 15, 2005 11:26 pm

Best First wrote:dude.

he'd just write.

Monkey.

And possibly the words

"played by Ahmed Best"
:lol:

"Mesa seein none o'dese a stereotypes!"

Actually, after seeing behind the scenes footage for Episode I, I couldn't help but feel sorry for the guy-first black man* since Billy Dee Williams to have a starring role in the most succesful Sci-fi franchise ever? He must have thought his career was sorted, until the first day of filming when he wound up in a rubber suit like those guys who dress up in banana costumes and hand out flyers for nightclubs and the like. He just looked so ridiculous, and that voice...poor, poor bastard. I know he had a choice, but that moment of realisation when he found out exactly how he would appear on screen must have been soul destroying.

*Not including Sam Jackson, who I done forgot.
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Post by Legion » Tue Nov 15, 2005 11:30 pm

Pissin' Poonani wrote: That's unfair-he only had 20+ years to write the prequels.

How many of us could cope with such a demanding deadline?

Actually, you know that wotsit about a roomfull of monkeys with typewriters will eventually type out Shakespeares' plays? Well, I reckon if you stuck George Lucas in a room with a typewriter, he'd just about produce the monkeys' first draft.
but that's just it, he had 20+ years... but he was making lines up and changing whole scenes during recording of episode 3!! (according to the commentary on said flick)

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Post by Metal Vendetta » Tue Nov 15, 2005 11:46 pm

Legion wrote:but that's just it, he had 20+ years... but he was making lines up and changing whole scenes during recording of episode 3!! (according to the commentary on said flick)
There's a Super Furry Animals song springs to mind...
I would have waited a ******* eternity for this!!!!
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Post by Impactor returns 2.0 » Tue Nov 15, 2005 11:59 pm

Its actually pretty hard to concive a story where a super trainned Jedi would ever turn to be honest...

Take a Padwan, train him for years and years, mental,physical,force. and one day he turns...

Whilst im at it go watch the old films, big battles are not the key to a great a movie. character and charisma seem to do better
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Post by Legion » Wed Nov 16, 2005 9:54 am

Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:Its actually pretty hard to concive a story where a super trainned Jedi would ever turn to be honest...

Take a Padwan, train him for years and years, mental,physical,force. and one day he turns...
I think the point is that he wasn't a super-trainned Jedi though, in EpIV ObiWan admits his training failed Anakin/Vader. Heck, in Ep1 Yoda basically says they won't train him because he feels they couldn't do it properly (because he was too old apparently - but that didn't stop him with Luke).

It's someone like Dooku that's a bit of odd one, i mean, he should have been one of these super-trainned Jedi, but then he just ups and leaves? A "difference of opinions" is one (odd -for a Jedi) thing, but then turning to the Sith? wow, must have been a vast difference! :D

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Post by Best First » Mon Nov 21, 2005 3:34 pm

Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:Its actually pretty hard to concive a story where a super trainned Jedi would ever turn to be honest...
i don't think so, plenty of people flip out of a life time of conditioning, you just need to find the right angle.

ergo someone should really get Georgie a protractor for xmas. That and possibly the concepts of character development and time.

Maybe GL could have another stab at a similar trilogy, where Tony Blair starts off as a dedicated socialist...
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