Irony? What's that?

[Impactor returns 2.0]

but what i mean is whether or not you let ppl out at different times, it doesnt change the fact that young ppl mainly seem to want to go out and get off thier faces.

Whats up with society that ppl want to do that. - actually whats wrong with me, i know ill be ****** come 6 this morning...

[Jetfire]

Thats society - in eurpoe they stay open all night, yet binge drinking isnt a problem?

...uh, because they don't have a culture of binge drinking?

Ok then im confused why are you linking binge drinking and late licensing?

Are you suggesting that it wont help? because what im saying is that how come it doesnt matter in the rest of europe.
The problem with binge drinking isnt due to our licensing laws but more society itself. What fuels us to go out and get wasted the way we do? when they dont elsewhere?
Culture.

FOr a policing point of view I think the clubs staying open later will make it easier for the police to keep controll.

No it doesn't, tragically even though the logic is good. Areas on the continent which receaves a ton of holidaying Brit's have shown that the problems are still present in the same porportion.


The reason why we go otu and wasted is because it's something we do. There isn't a problem or solution. Teens see their parents return from pubs/clubs and naturally copy them. The cycle repeates itself because in part clubs, pubs and bars there is no incentive not to serve underage drinkers. Take Kingston in south London. It's a bit of the westend outside the Westend. Also week in, week out thousands of blatently underage drinkers get wasted throughout. I know this because it's a bit of a shock when you're out cleebrating the end of half term and you encounter a dozen 14/15 year old girls you teach lined up in the queue to Oceana. Who knows who else frommy school went to The works or anotehr of the 6 clubs inthe area, or went to wimbledon, Epsom or Croydon to get sloshed instead.

What can be done about it.

Everybody knows binge drinking isn't good. Everybody knows you should be 18 to be able to go out drinking but nobody parents and club owners alike just don't care. There is no incentive to be a good parent and no incentive for clubs/off licences to ensure underage drinking laws are applied and enforced.

Europe doesn't have such binge drinking problems because it's enforced. The USA has far less binge drinking problems becasue establishments are far to scared of the reprocussions of being caught serving alcohol to underage drinkers.

Your still going to get binge drinkers regardless, at least this way you dont get them at the same time.
Binge drinkers need to be addressed by education. society shouldnt feel the need to go out and gets smashed out of its face.

The biggest binge drinkers I know are all well educated. Uni students are nortious for binge drinking.
It's like smoking. EVerybody knows it's bad but nobody cares. Partly because it's to easy to obtain when your young and habbits formed early are the hardest to kick.

Sad really. But seeing as the government never leads by example on anything who else can infulence the change in culture?

[Impactor returns 2.0]

you cant use a few places in europe that brits go to as an example of european culture.

Daft.

Terroists came to the UK, we are all terroists.

[Best First]

you cant use a few places in europe that brits go to as an example of european culture.

eh? where does anyone do that?

[Impactor returns 2.0]

No it doesn't, tragically even though the logic is good. Areas on the continent which receaves a ton of holidaying Brit's have shown that the problems are still present in the same porportion.

So holidaying brits on the contient create the same problem we have in britain.

But all the other europeans dont suffer binge culture.

do i have to explain further?

[Best First]

er... you seem to be making our point for us.

Late licensing wont solve the problem of violence on Friday nights because the problem is people getting out of control an dthey will continue to do that. It will spread it a bout a bit at best.

shouldn#t you be pissed now, anyway?

[Impactor returns 2.0]

I think your missing the point.

You have a group of pissed ppl, if u shut pubs at 9,10,11 or 12. still all drunk. when u kick everyone out at the same time u have 10k of drunk ppl all in the same place at the same time, guess what, fight.

When ppl are allowed to leave at thier own time, u dont have concentration of pissed up ppl and ppl dont try and squezze down extra drink - ppl can drink at thier own speed.

Back to my point, in europe they use this sytem they have less violence.

but

regardless of this, we have a drinking culture, and its got nothing to do with when your bars shut.

So where does this culture of getting **** faced come from? they dont have the same issues in europe, and there bars never close...

[Best First]

I think your missing the point.

nope

You have a group of pissed ppl, if u shut pubs at 9,10,11 or 12. still all drunk. when u kick everyone out at the same time u have 10k of drunk ppl all in the same place at the same time, guess what, fight.

i understand this but i think, especially when it comes to pubs, its too simplistic. It faisl to consider, for example, what the pubs have to deal with themselves with people getting even more pissed.

When ppl are allowed to leave at thier own time, u dont have concentration of pissed up ppl and ppl dont try and squezze down extra drink - ppl can drink at thier own speed.

But they won't - this is the point - we are a nature of binge drinkers. people aren'tgoing to stop hammering it on a Friday because the pubs are open later, they are, by and large, just going to drink more.

Back to my point, in europe they use this sytem they have less violence.

Back to my point, this is because of their cultural attitude to booze, of which opening hours is just one aspect. They don't use opening hours to control drinking because, for the main part, they don't go out to get hammered like we do. The notion that they have late licensing hours and they don't have violence which means that if we replicate their opening hours we won't either is far to simplistic.

So where does this culture of getting **** faced come from? they dont have the same issues in europe, and there bars never close...

This is the important question, and its one the Gov don't seem to be asking.

[Jetfire]

I think your missing the point.

You have a group of pissed ppl, if u shut pubs at 9,10,11 or 12. still all drunk. when u kick everyone out at the same time u have 10k of drunk ppl all in the same place at the same time, guess what, fight.

When ppl are allowed to leave at thier own time, u dont have concentration of pissed up ppl and ppl dont try and squezze down extra drink - ppl can drink at thier own speed.

I'm agreeing with Besty here. It does sound perfectly logical that Brits who can drink for longer will drink at a better pace and not get so wasted.

The other arguement is that people will not hord out all at once and drunk groups won't encounter each other so readily.

It's a great logical idea, however fro all the information we can get about it, it still doesn't work.
Tragically in both the primiary schemes, the fact pubs can apply for licences for late openings until 1 for over a year now,the fact some areas have had clubs that can open 'til 4 in the morning anyway as was as Brit hotspots abroad, have shown consistently that Brit's don't drink more sensibly if given more time they simply drink more and pour out at similar times.

After a few trials police have noted people still pour out between 2am and 4am because everybody's tired by then. But in your standard town centre with 10 pubs and 4 clubs you will still have thousands of drunks in a relatively small area.

The problem is the culture of drinking heavily from an early age and the fact it's to easy. 13/14 years olds are all aware obtaining alcohol is extreamly easy. There are many parents who encourage kids of that age to try alcohol or simply leave it far to readily eas to be taken and do nothing about it when it does. As usual bad parentng has a lot to answer for.

However the government as we all know are far to scared of targeting the source of this problem because parents (as they preceave)are all one demograph and far too big a voter group to offend.
Likewise the alcohol lobby is pretty powerful and Labour dispise any policy that might lower the potential tax income they receave regardless of the consequences in society.


If Labour and local authorities went in hard on the estabilshment as done in say America and Canada so they were far more vigilent about letting in underage drinkers or groups of people who are already far to intoxicated you could greatly reduce a large porportion of the drink culture.
Other possible solutions is to make the consequences for causing problesm while drunk more severe, bring the parents in on such cases and damn it give teenagers something else to do. Open up youth centres with pools tables and arcades as well as constructive activities because the drink culture has mostly arisen from the fact young people simply have nothing else to do.

[Scraplet]

So where does this culture of getting **** faced come from? they dont have the same issues in europe, and there bars never close...

This is the important question, and its one the Gov don't seem to be asking.

I think it gonna be very difficult to ever sort. British culture and its foundations are built on barbarians getting pissed. This has always been encoraged by the ruling class of the time, cos it kept people under control and made them a very effective army when neccesary.

The britains scared the bejeezuz out of the Roamans for a very long time, becuase they found they were fighting pissed bezerkers.

Many other pagen cultures were similar - look at the vikings. And they settled here and had considerable cultural influence themselves.

Every major battle of the Middle Ages was fought by pissed people.

Even in the first world war, the troops would be very pissed before going obver the top.

So its nothing new.

The same mentality still persits (IMO) and can been seen every saturday in pubs near the football grounds.

The problem now is that there is no benefit to society (or the ruling classes) for keeping the masses pissed, and no-one to fight but their own.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

I'm agreeing with Besty here. It does sound perfectly logical that Brits who can drink for longer will drink at a better pace and not get so wasted.

thats what i said, and its like europe, they drink all day and night but DO NOT have a bingr drinking culture - binge drinking has nothing to do with how late your pubs are open.

The other arguement is that people will not hord out all at once and drunk groups won't encounter each other so readily.

again this is what ive been saying.

It's a great logical idea, however fro all the information we can get about it, it still doesn't work.
Tragically in both the primiary schemes, the fact pubs can apply for licences for late openings until 1 for over a year now,the fact some areas have had clubs that can open 'til 4 in the morning anyway as was as Brit hotspots abroad, have shown consistently that Brit's don't drink more sensibly if given more time they simply drink more and pour out at similar times.

Right use some logic there.
A. untill recently bvournemouth has and was one of the most violent place in the UK at chucking out time, we now stagger closing times and crim has gone down - simple example but a 'hotsopt' in the uk it works.

2ndly u talk of hotspots abroard. these are 18-30 holiday zones where drinking and rowdy behavious is encrouaged, they are so unlike anything we know here they are pointless comparrison.

for example "man gets drunk on boozze holiday" what the hell did u expect thats the point!!!

After a few trials police have noted people still pour out between 2am and 4am because everybody's tired by then. But in your standard town centre with 10 pubs and 4 clubs you will still have thousands of drunks in a relatively small area.

thats why u have staggered closing times, u cant do that without late license.
like i said bournemouth is a good example.

The problem is the culture of drinking heavily from an early age and the fact it's to easy. 13/14 years olds are all aware obtaining alcohol is extreamly easy. There are many parents who encourage kids of that age to try alcohol or simply leave it far to readily eas to be taken and do nothing about it when it does. As usual bad parentng has a lot to answer for.

Ok this is what im trying to point out but ppl seem to think im bloody loopy or somthing. in europe, take france for example kids are drinking wine from birth, they dont have a binge drinking culture.
so even tho they drink before our kids do, they dont seem to have a problem with it. its the same across europe.
its got more to do with British culutre itself then it has to do with when the pub shuts which is simplistic view.

two things here,
binge drinking culture
and
violence outside pubs

dont get them confused.

However the government as we all know are far to scared of targeting the source of this problem because parents (as they preceave)are all one demograph and far too big a voter group to offend.
Likewise the alcohol lobby is pretty powerful and Labour dispise any policy that might lower the potential tax income they receave regardless of the consequences in society

Go and look at the start of this topic, this about Labour comming down harder on parents - duh.

If Labour and local authorities went in hard on the estabilshment as done in say America and Canada so they were far more vigilent about letting in underage drinkers or groups of people who are already far to intoxicated you could greatly reduce a large porportion of the drink culture.
Other possible solutions is to make the consequences for causing problesm while drunk more severe, bring the parents in on such cases and damn it give teenagers something else to do. Open up youth centres with pools tables and arcades as well as constructive activities because the drink culture has mostly arisen from the fact young people simply have nothing else to do.

again, Labour, new parenting laws - thats what started this topic.

but no one seems to be able to understand this.

[Best First]

[quote="Impactor returns 2.0"]
Go and look at the start of this topic, this about Labour comming down harder on parents - duh.

[quote]

No it isn't - its about that hilarity of someone who has a reputation as a bully and makes after dinner speechs about beating up collegues being put in charge of fostering a culture of respect.

duh.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

Oh and heres me thinking we were talking about somthing interesting.

[Best First]

didn't say we weren't, but its generally advisable to check your facts before talking down to everyone.

duh.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

Yes I did - women gets new job in anti-social department.

Oh I see there was an ironic bit.

Well, her joke offended me about as much as a teddy bear does. id rather she does her new job, and tells that joke everyday because it would never bother me even if she shouted it my ear over and over - what does bother me is if she doesnt do her job properly in a sector that clearly needs attention.

[Best First]

Which she won't becasue as usual the governments focus will be on the symptoms rather than the cause and pander to the worst aspects of the media and industry where they can get away with it.

A bit like using 24 drinking to try and get rid of our binge drinking culture.

There back on track. You can get back to telling everyone they don't understand now.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

so you think its more important to focus on a joke that wasnt offencive instead of this new postion the government has setup.
Whats more important, seriously? she made a joke that I just dont give a toss about, what i do care about is if she sorts out the lil gits who make grief for ppl in my town. whats more important, the well being of thousands or mary whitehouse getting her knickers in a twist over some crappy joke. thats whats ironic.

Hey, david badeal once said "roy, 'cancer' castle" - now thats offencive, but ppl thought it was funny because its david.

anyhows - explain this, as no one seems to.

If we had pubs open for 3 hours not 24, do you think england would have less binge drinkers?

binge drinking doesnt exist in europe, they have 24 hour drinking.
binge drinking does exist in the UK, we dont have 24 hour drinking.

Binge drinking is due to society not how long a pub is open.

and, you see, this women, she got a new job to deal with things like this.
heres a link.

Important but slightly ironic job

[Best First]

so you think its more important to focus on a joke that wasnt offencive instead of this new postion the government has setup.

sorry, i say that where?

I never said it was odffensive either, stupid is more like it. Of course offensive is subjective...

Hey, david badeal once said "roy, 'cancer' castle" - now thats offencive, but ppl thought it was funny because its david.

Kindly don't include the rest of humaity in your thinking DB is funny. And alos, if you don't think this matters, why are you tryingto argue the point?

anyhows - explain this, as no one seems to.

If we had pubs open for 3 hours not 24, do you think england would have less binge drinkers?

No.

Binge drinking is due to society not how long a pub is open.

yes, so;

a) opening pubs longer won't solve the problem and shouldn't be touted as such

and

b) people are likley to do themselves, and potentially others more rather than less harm as a result.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

Well I belive thatyou will have binge drinkers and trouble makers no matter how long a pub is open.

I also belive that if ppl are not all turfed out at the same time there will be less problems on the street as there are less ppl.

guess we will find out pretty soon.

[Best First]

Well I belive thatyou will have binge drinkers and trouble makers no matter how long a pub is open.

useful approach to problems.

guess we will find out pretty soon.

yeah, when a whole 2 pubs apply for a 24 hour licence.

Incidentaly, if its all so simple and obvious:

http://society.guardian.co.uk/societygu ... 79,00.html

Also, if Labour are so nig on the culture of respect, why is booze, clearly a contributer to anti social behaviour, now (in terms of inflaction) significantly cheaper than it used to be?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Co ... 40,00.html

doesn't add up.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

adds up perfectly for me, I think its a no brainer.

binge drinking culture UK - pubs not open for 24 hours,
binge drinking culture UK - pubs open for 24 hours.

so whats the difference?

instead of having everyone on the street at the same time, now u have ppl on the street at a different time. thats your anti-soical behaviour.

It can be broken down and down into smaller and smaller points.

If i get 1 drunk guy on a street, the chances of him causing an problem are not as great as 2 ppl. so extrapolate that . simple.

What it doesnt change is why, and I seem to be going over and over it, yet no one can give me an answer.
Is why do the ppl in england binge drink? huh?
Its got sod all to do with pubs being open, because currently they are not open 24 hours, i cant make this any clearer - we already are beinge drinkers. but why? they dont have this problem in france, or the USA or germany, japan, so whats going on here in the UK.

Pub opening times will not effect the 'culture' of binge drinking within the UK, thats society, not brewers fair. the price of beer and what not is just not relevent, the fact is ppl dont go for social drink in the UK they go to get [composite word including 'f*ck'] faced, and thats got nothing to dowith the time on a clock.

What the extra opening hours do help tho is not dumping all your drunk in the street at the same time, it doesnt take a genius to work out that it will create a problem.

there is no point beliving that opening hours are related to a culture of binge drinkers. its worth pointing out that chilkdren who cant get into pubs binge drink. they dont have opening hours on the street.

[Best First]

so, we have a problem withy binge driking, and you don't see any problem with people who binge drink having access to booze for longer?

i see.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

no i dont.
Because ppl binge drink regardless - societys needs to educate ppl on the dangers. thats a bigger problem.

the trouble caused outside bars and clubs tho can be controlled easier as you have less ppl to deal with.

[Best First]

what about drink driving? arguably about to get worse.

And are police definitely better off spreading themselves over numerous smaller pockets of troble than a few big concenrations. The police themselves don't seem sure this is a good idea, so how can you on their behalf?

And what about the increased strain on the nhs?

oh, but its all so simple.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

what about drink driving? arguably about to get worse.

And are police definitely better off spreading themselves over numerous smaller pockets of troble than a few big concenrations. The police themselves don't seem sure this is a good idea, so how can you on their behalf?

And what about the increased strain on the nhs?

oh, but its all so simple.

Police in some towns favour it.
Here in bournemouth our crime is down, so i favour it.
the strain to the Nhs wqill be down as there is less violence due to lower numbers on the streets.

Binge drinkers will always be in the hospitcal due to poor education.

[Best First]

Due, as far as i can gather, you are crime in bournmouth.

sorry, can't be arsed any more, not if i am going to get responses like 'the strain on the nhs will be equal', when there is no way of safely predicting that.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

true i am crime in bournemouth.

like u say its going around in circles - i honestly think theres plus points either way.

I think kids should have better education in schools myself, we were taught about taking drugs like crack and heroin, as thats what every kids gets into.... (cheers zamo) but i dont recall anyone talking to me about drink, which is used more sociably and in abundance.

[Best First]

I think kids should have better education in schools myself, we were taught about taking drugs like crack and heroin, as thats what every kids gets into.... (cheers zamo) but i dont recall anyone talking to me about drink, which is used more sociably and in abundance.

agree. But it needs to be non patronising, as it is i had teachers telling me - this is what your liver will look like, then i would see them in the pub later on.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

I used to love the degenrates that would come in and and tell u about thier experiences, as that really connects with the kids.

oh and the visit from the local copper who would show u different drugs...

[Best First]

We had a copper wjo essentially came in and showed us how to shop lift.