Interesting Conversation I had Today...religion related

[BB Shockwave]

Well, that's how faith works... call it a little 'gamble'. You have no or little proof to believe in a god, but heck, if you die and it turns up there IS a God and you were a believer, then you hit jackpot.

Otherwise, for atheists, it'd be a classic case "all dressed up and nowhere to go".

[Impactor returns 2.0]

Well, that's how faith works... call it a little 'gamble'. You have no or little proof to believe in a god, but heck, if you die and it turns up there IS a God and you were a believer, then you hit jackpot.

Otherwise, for atheists, it'd be a classic case "all dressed up and nowhere to go".

Sounds like blackmail to me.

Also it suggests that god has an ego that needs stroking, or u cant go heaven.

I find the concept that an omnipotent being has an ego to be laughable.

[Shanti418]

I'm saying, if you accept some facet of the concept of God in the Christian sense, faith is belief. Belief is trust.

We all believe things we can't prove. People are generally good natured. That person didn't mean to do that. Aliens exist.

Like I was saying, if you KNEW God existed, then who wouldn't believe?

There will never be any truth to the existence of God, IMHO. It will always be a matter of faith. No one can hit the rewind button on Earth and witness what happened first hand. And if the fossil record and evolutionary theory doesn't shake you, then I'm sure that future scientific/technological innovations and/or discoveries won't affect you either.


At the base level, God's main purpose is to provide explanations for things we as humans don't know.

Greeks don't know where lightning comes from, so they invent Zeus.

Egyptians consider the sun an important part of their life, they invent Ra.

We've figured out most of these things, but we still don't know why we're here, how we got here, and exactly what the right things to do are now that we ARE here. So we invent God.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

so we invent god?

going by pervious races, like u pointed out, perhaps its time we learnt that god doesnt exist.


Lighting! - Zeus... oh actually its the weather... etc...

Also what dont we understand? why we are here? oh I dont know, so i must create a god? bah thats rubbish.

still cant see any reason at all.

Gods with egos, and all that... dont make me laugh

[Shanti418]

Also what dont we understand? why we are here? oh I dont know, so i must create a god? bah thats rubbish.

Perhaps so, but it is the truth, nonetheless.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

that just sounds like simple thinking tho.

I mean I dont understand quantum mechanics, but I dont invent a god to cover the whole in my head. I could learn...

So far god has an ego that needs to be stroked, and is purely thier to explain stuff to ppl who cant think for themselves, whilst generally creating death and war.

Yeah, god is ****.

[Shanti418]

God doesn't have an ego, it just that man's ability to comprehend God is just so limited that he's forced to attach an ego to him to understand.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

god doesnt have an ego?

why 'worship' god then? - simple

in more detail

God creates the universe, and everything in it. well done
then creates earth, clever god
then he makes mankind or somthing...

so then mankind has to waste loads of time, praying to god? err what? praying to god... thats an ego.

and if u dont pray, u dont get to come to my house, u go to hell MASSIVE EGO

so in short.

U worship somthing that created the entire universe, somthing so amazing, he can create everything as we know it, and this thing needs to be told how great he was at it everyday.

bollox. religon sucks ass, there is no god. its purely human invention to controll the masses.

God has an ego - therefore its bollox.

[sprunkner]

that just sounds like simple thinking tho.

I mean I dont understand quantum mechanics, but I dont invent a god to cover the whole in my head. I could learn...

So far god has an ego that needs to be stroked, and is purely their to explain stuff to ppl who cant think for themselves, whilst generally creating death and war.

Keep in mind that God fulfills an emotional need. That's why, I believe, faith is based on emotional reasoning... because to say 'God exists,' is to say, 'God loves me.' Some people manage to miss the 'He loves everyone else just as much' doctrine in various different ways.

It's not just about warm fuzzies, though... the love of God is meant to be a transforming thing. Think of it this way: if you could believe that there was an all-powerful being who personally considered every human being, even the ***** of the earth, to be his children, and loved them as the most devoted and caring parent would, then an experience of the love would be a fundamentally transcendent experience. It cannot be a logical, reasonable thing, because love works only on the emotions. But it would create in you an emotional basis for seeing everyone as your brothers and sisters. Also for seeing yourself, despite past mistakes, as a redeemable being.

We tend to be ennobled when another person loves us. I know that when my wife says that she loves me and believes I am a good person, then this trying to be a good person that I do seems justified.

Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God, and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth him.

Now the problem is, for me and many people, that the above statement comes from a book that is also filled with a lot of twaddle about an angry, destroying and mean God. Do I believe the Bible word-for-word? No. I'm not sure if I even believe the Book of Mormon word-for-word, and that one errs a lot more on the side of a loving God. But I'm not here to argue the significance of these scriptures. Every religious person, at some point, has to accept that the day-to-day living of a Christlike or Buddhalike or Prophetlike life is more important than how one actually takes bread and wine, or whether or not one believes in Jesus' blood atoning for our sins or nirvana.

Once we have broken free of the prejudices of our own provincially limited ecclesiastical, tribal, or national rendition of the world archetypes, it becomes possible to understand that the supreme initiation is not that of the local fathers, who then project aggression onto the neighbors for their own defense. The good news, which the World Redeemer brings and which so many have been glad to hear, zealous to preach, but reluctant, apparently, to demonstrate, is that God is love, that He can be, and is to be, loved, and that all without exception are his children. Such comparatively trivial matters as the remaining details of the credo, the techniques of worship and devices of episcopal organization (which have so absorbed the interest of Occidental theologians tha they are today seriously discussed as the principal question of religion), are merely pedantic snares, unless kept ancillary to the major teaching. Indeed, where not so kept, they have a regressive effect: they reduce the Father image back again to the dimensions of the totem. And this, of course, is what has happened throughout the Christian world. One would think that we had been called upon to decide or know whom, of all of us, the Father prefers. Whereas the teaching is much less flattering: "Judge not, that ye be not judged." The World Savior's cross, in spite of the behavior of its professed priests, is a vastly more democratic symbol than the flag.

No offence, Sprunkner, but I just don't get that. Are you saying that you couldn't/didn't develop a moral code of your own as you grew up based on your life experiences?

I did develop a moral code partially based on my experiences, and partially based on the knowledge of God's love. I think, (and again, here we are at emotional reasoning—which, I am glad, everybody is united with me on the Radiohead/Coldplay thing at least) that this knowledge made it easier for me to be a moral person than it would have been otherwise. Not saying people can't be equally moral without the knowledge of God's love, but for me, I am glad I had it.

People don't often try to convert me, they just very often tell me that I should alter my behavior to conform to what their God wants. And it's always stuff like "You shouldn't swear." "You shouldn't drink," or "You shouldn't use words like 'hate'."

Some people are a little thicker than others in their attempts to share what is a good thing for them. Some people seem to think, "Oh, God loves me—but only my religion." Or "God loves me—but this friend of mine, who is doing things wrong, won't know God loves him unless I tell him to fix up his life."

That's ridiculous. People get converted in the gutter all the time. I actually had a church leader say to me, as a missionary, "I know it sounds weird, but in my experience, alchohol lubricates the Spirit of God." (I don't want to go into a long explanation of my actual doctrine and verse about alchohol, so suffice it to say that I believe it's not bad to drink, just something I choose not to do.) Better, IMO, to work on your good example than to preach.

the whole point of faith is to believe something you can't prove.

But what is the point of that?

Partially all the reasons quoted above, like the fact that maybe if you die, you will get to heaven, but, partially, to have an emotional grounding for your self-worth and others' worth as well. Now, it is obvious to most of us that others, even stupid idiots who mess with our lives, are good people in need of the same things we need. We don't need God to realize this. But maybe I need God to realize just how deep a person goes and how valuable they are in my heart.

Because of my religion, I've made some choices differently than I would have otherwise. I got married at 23, something most non-religious people wouldn't do, even if they were in a relationship with someone they loved as much as I love Chrissy. I think I would still love Chrissy just as much without the church and without the knowledge that she has been around and will be around forever, and now is eternally my mate. However, knowing these things about her led to an agreement between us that allows our relationship the assumption of going on forever, instead of the possibility. This means that we have a deeper level of commitment than we otherwise would have. Is this good? I think so. If I didn't have faith that God had approved this union, and had shown me His love for Chrissy as well as for me, I might actually think differently every time I see some non-Chrissy hot chick walk down the street. Or every time we had an argument. But I made this agreement with a full knowledge, emotionally based yes, that this was the right thing to do.

I do admire and respect those, like all yous on this board, who are wonderful human beings without a shred of religion. From my point of view, God doesn't damn anyone for not believing. That probably sounds condescending. I'll try again. From my point of view, we all need different reasons for being good people. For some of you, this all-encompassing-love-which-leads-to-emotional-basis sounds like horse crap. So don't think that this religious person, at least, wants you to convert or go to hell. I can't even say that it would be nice to have everyone in my religion, because I can't stand a lot of the Mormons around here.

But maybe, just maybe, you'll understand now why I believe.

[Guest]

god doesnt have an ego?

why 'worship' god then? - simple

in more detail

God creates the universe, and everything in it. well done
then creates earth, clever god
then he makes mankind or somthing...

so then mankind has to waste loads of time, praying to god? err what? praying to god... thats an ego.

and if u dont pray, u dont get to come to my house, u go to hell MASSIVE EGO

so in short.

U worship somthing that created the entire universe, somthing so amazing, he can create everything as we know it, and this thing needs to be told how great he was at it everyday.

bollox. religon sucks ass, there is no god. its purely human invention to controll the masses.

God has an ego - therefore its bollox.

You're making the mistake of mixing up "making up a story to 'fill the holes' in our worldly knowledge" with "making up a story to control the populace"

1. Making up a story to 'fill the holes' in our worldly knowledge:

I don't know why the sun moves across the sky, but I know that horse-drawn chariots can move things across the land. Therefore, I will say that there are these special flying horses that pull a blazing chariot, because the sun looks like a ball of flame, across the sky.

2. Making up a story to control the populace:

I want people to do what I say, and they already believe in this supernatural being who lives in the world beyond life. Therefore, I will imagine that there is another world beyond life, but a really, really nasty place to live, and I'll say that anyone who doesn't do as I say will end up there, instead of the happy place.


God doesn't have an ego by default, he gained one through ancestral megalomania.

And for balance, a more scientific set of examples:

1. There's this thing called Gravity, that pulls all the objects towards each other, but I don't know exactly how that happens. I do know, however, that if I attach a rope to a log, I can pull the rope and the log comes with it. So, I will imagine that there are these little invisible men with ropes attached to arrows, and they shoot their arrows at things and by pulling on the ropes, Gravity exists.

2. Hmm. Alternating current is dangerous, but there doesn't need to be a fuse in both wires, so what I'll do is call one wire Live, and stick a fuse in it, and the other wire Neutral, so people feel a bit safer around it without the need for a fuse in that too.

IMO, monotheism is the end-product of a polytheistic culture that's made leaps and bounds in its scientific discoveries, and the logical conclusion is either atheism, when everything can be explained without supernatural influence, or omnitheism (if that's what you'd call it where 'God' is everything, as in Buddhism?), where everything can be explained as being part of a single supernature.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

sorry thats still loads of rhetorical rubbish.

God has an ego, because u worship him.

gods cant have egos.

therefore, there is no god, but man himself creating god.

God was created to controll the masses and **** on bad kings.

[The Last Autobot]

This topic has left me with a question.

I see that the majority of you only believe in things scientifically proved. So I guess you think that human beings are only evolved animals whose existance is limited, and is only as long as its life term.

So we humans are only flesh and bone and nothing else.

After we die its the void

Then we have no soul?

Is that so?

[Shanti418]

sorry thats still loads of rhetorical rubbish.

God has an ego, because u worship him.

gods cant have egos.

therefore, there is no god, but man himself creating god.

God was created to controll the masses and **** on bad kings.

God does control the masses and **** on bad kings, but God still has no ego.

I mean, I could worship a bottled water. Does that mean it has an ego?

RE: Last Autobot

That's an interesting question and a complete and utter Pandora's Box which leads us into a thick, THICK forest of pure speculation.

A lot of scientists manage to juxtapose their work and their faith by believing that yeah, evolution was going on, but there was some sort of divine intervention, divine spark, that has made humanity special. That has made us self aware.
There's also a lot of quite possible historical theorization that beings not of this earth played a part in the introduction of intelligent life and even possibly the formation of our concepts of God
To me, because all of us feel something visceral in ourselves that makes us realize that who we are is more than our bodies, most of us are inclined to believe we have a soul.


But if we DO have souls, where are they coming from? And how can they supply exponential population growth?

[Impactor returns 2.0]

I mean, I could worship a bottled water. Does that mean it has an ego?

No because it doesnt not require you to worship it.

ergo - god has an ego, because if u dont worship his ass you got to hell..

ego.

and to me thats just daft.

god is a man made idea.

As for when u die, yeah your snail food. end of. get over it.

I prefer this.

Nuclear war, asteroid insert random planet killing disaster - who will worship god then? who will talk about holy things, everyone is dead, the planet destroyed. end of.

with no one around to hear or talk of god, he doesnt exist either - tree falling in the woods etc...

god only exists because u say he does, if we were not here there would be no god. god is a human creation.

[Metal Vendetta]

Then we have no soul?

Is that so?

Do shrimp have souls? Or armadillos or jellyfish? Or chimpanzees or dolphins?

If the answer is no, then neither do we. We're mammals. Naked apes. Aside from the clever trick of language (and that's not limited to humans, ants "talk" to one another using scents, dolphins seem to communicate pretty well and can understand sign language, so can gorillas and chimps) there's really no difference between us and the rest of the animal kingdom. In my opinion, anyway. Souls, like God, are a way to say to people "you're very very special and there's a special plan for you". Kinda ignores people born with crippling deformities, doesn't it? Or did God intend for them to have a miserable time of it? Or were they particularly bad in a previous life and are being made to pay for it in this one?

I am completely comfortable with the fact that I am an ape. Some people find that insulting, instead preferring to believe that they were specially created and that humans are somehow imbued with a special life-force denied to the rest of the animals. To me, that sounds like something a human would come up with to make themselves feel better about life. Sorry and all that, but it's hardly convincing. If we were specially created by God then how come we are, more or less, exactly the same as all the other mammals? We eat, sleep, crap, fight and reproduce in exactly the same way that all the other mammals do. Lazy programming on God's part? A bit of cut 'n' paste?

[edit]

A lot of scientists manage to juxtapose their work and their faith by believing that yeah, evolution was going on, but there was some sort of divine intervention, divine spark, that has made humanity special. That has made us self aware...To me, because all of us feel something visceral in ourselves that makes us realize that who we are is more than our bodies, most of us are inclined to believe we have a soul.

1. Chimps and dolphins are self-aware.
2. We are not more than our bodies. Take away someone's body and you take away them. In fact, take away someone's head or heart and you take away them. If we are more than our bodies, where is all the "extra" stuff?
3. Most of us are inclined to believe we have a soul because we don't want to die. If there's something extra that's not part of the body then we don't die when our body does. Sounds an awful lot like wishful thinking to me.
4. Souls are also a great way to justify the destruction of other animals. It's ok because they don't have souls, therefore they don't really matter. Again, sounds like the sort of useful justification that a human would come up with.

I left out the bit about extra-terrestrials because that's even more silly than the notion of God.

[Brendocon]

I've got soul.

But I'm not a soldier.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

Souls.

human invention.

[Kup_1]

I'm very much with besty on this, philosophy and personal belief are absolutely fine as long as people don't start using them to condemn or justify actions based on beliefs which have no proof or dubious reasoning behind them.

As, (far as I know) the only religious guy around here, I'm with Besty too. Religion isn't a tool to advance your own personal psychosis.

I believe in religion because I believe it helps me to be a better person. Yes, there is no reasoning for God to exist. I know that. Every religious person, no matter how much they argue about fossils and evolution, knows that in their heart. Some are super insecure about it and try to prove it. I feel no need. God can exist, the Bible can be mostly true (which is what Mormons believe about the good book anyway) and evolution can still be a viable, probably true theory. Emotions and reason can exist with each other, even if they sometimes contradict each other, because they are different bases for belief. I can't say "Rob is a good person because I like him." That is not proof. I can say, "Rob is a good person because he buys me drinks and lets me stay at his house." But all the evidence I have for God is in the form of "I like him."

It's an emotional thing. There is no point in trying to reasonably prove that God exists, any more than you could prove to somebody that Radiohead is better than Coldplay. Some people just like Coldplay better.

So why the hell do you want us to prove it to you? I've never tried to prove it to any of you! I've never pushed it, either!

So stop asking us to prove it, please. Those of us who don't blow up buildings, marry unwilling minors, or believe you are going to hell because you don't believe, are insulted.

I agree with most of this. I do believe in a higher power. not necesilary a "Guy living in the clouds" but...somthing.

I can't prove it.

I can't make you believe in it.

I can't even really explain why I believe....

But I do.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

thats insane and pointless

Ive met the true god, he came and sat down with me last night.

He told me, after showing himself create a universe, that he didnt need ppl to worship him, he just hoped that ppl were good. he said there was an afterlife. and everyone gos there.

He also said I was the first person on earth he has show himself to, and all other religons whilst quaint are based on nothing, he knew as he was god.

Now I cant prove this to you
I cant show this to you
Your just going to have to have faith.

Now prove me wrong...

-----

Your god has an ego, gos dont have egos. there is no god.

[Brendocon]

I dunno. Faith is basically the decision to believe something you know is irrational. If you thought it was rational, you wouldn't need faith as it would stand to reason.

To conciously defy logic takes balls, really. Or insanity. Whichever, y'all.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

Ive met god - hes right here right now. no faith required. he has show me via god powers that all other religons are wrong.

My god has no ego.

Did I mention im the new messiah? - what u dont belive me, well u cant go to heaven then...

I really hope everyone on earth dies so that religon dies.

[Metal Vendetta]

I really hope everyone on earth dies so that religon dies.

You don't have to go that far, just all the religious people on earth. God only exists in the minds of believers, remember?

[Impactor returns 2.0]

atheists unite!

[Brendocon]

atheists unite!

To form Atheotron?

[Kaylee]

2. We are not more than our bodies. Take away someone's body and you take away them. In fact, take away someone's head or heart and you take away them. If we are more than our bodies, where is all the "extra" stuff?

I think that's a little glib really- people have been pondering for many years about this with far greater knowledge of the human brain and nervous system and haven't come up with an explanation for where all things that make us human (including our illogical actions, like saving a person who hates us or helping random people who will never be able to help us back) come from.

Stephen Hawking's a pretty good example- the bloke has little by little lost more and more of his body and he's still there and still kicking as a very feisty human being (I've been told he actively makes sport of running his chair full tilt at bumps in the road in the ground of Oxbridge so he falls out- everyone runs over full of concern and he's laying there grinning).

I like to think that there is something more to me and everyone else on earth, and have got exactly the same amount of proof. My main motive being that the alternative- that when we die we snuff totally out of existence forever and so does everyone you love- is bad enough to make me want to string myself up:

What's the point in existing if all things will come to dust and dust only, save only to procreate so your genes don't die? If what I am doesn't have some more relevance than knocking some poor girl up then it's a pretty sad existence imo.

Laugh, drink, have fun- not really much purpose if everything I love will eventually not only be taken from me but will utterly cease to be; I'd rather get it over with now and save the heartache, considering you end up in exactly the same way at the end of it. Whether one lives heartily or dies sadly you're still utterly destroyed, why not save the nonsense of living with all its set-backs and pains if all the good things you love and believe make it worthwhile are in fact as entirely meaningless as yourself?

For the record being bad doesn't equal being disabled in any future life unless you go along with people like Glenn Hoddle. Kharma's a really difficult idea and varies from one philosophy to another- the general idea is that your 'actions' are neither good nor bad, but they have consequences and how the consequences reflect on you determines, amongst other things, how you will be reincarnated. Not afaik whether you will be crippled, mentally handicapped etc. but to do with whether or not you're 'kharmic potential' will come back as a human. Kharma is a philosophised extension of cause-and-effect imo (e.g. you're mean to someone, some time later you need help and said person is mean to you).

[Impactor returns 2.0]

yeah but at the same time we could explain lighting a few weeks ago, it doesnt meen just because science hasnt worked somthing out yet there is a higher being.

ill stick with, were still learning and in time we will understand.

I will never except, because I dont understand, there must be a higher being.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

Karl your talking about purpose.

Now, we evolved, we got brains, go us, and started to work things out.

But animals didmt, yet all they do is eat and shag. pretty pointless?

Thats life. we can just communicate.

Same argument is we could all die from a war or somthing, so what was the point in all of us?

nothing.

what about dinosaurs, they were here for millions of years, all dead. oh well.

even stars burn out, then nothing, worthless again.

its just life. live, die, end off

[Kaylee]

Karl your talking about purpose.

Now, we evolved, we got brains, go us, and started to work things out.

But animals didmt, yet all they do is eat and shag. pretty pointless?

Thats life. we can just communicate.

Same argument is we could all die from a war or somthing, so what was the point in all of us?

nothing.

what about dinosaurs, they were here for millions of years, all dead. oh well.

even stars burn out, then nothing, worthless again.

its just life. live, die, end off

That's it- it is entirely pointless. If you're life is pointless and of exactly zero relevance in a world where everything you did, thought and were will disappear and everyone you affected will disappear in the same way, then why bother living it? You'll end up in a wooden box the same way with no consequences (because you're dead) and so will everyone you ever affected positively or negatively. In a very short space of time (considering how long the Universe plans to last far as we know) its as if you never were at all, no matter what you did (whether you wipe out a continent or invent a cure for cancer).

If you're going to die as we all are and that represents the ultimate end of you, what does it matter what you do or don't do, who you help or who you kill? Or whether you decide it all sounds like a really bad hand and throw it in?

Throwing it in would sound like a pretty sharp option to me.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

why bother living it?

because its fun. its an experience, human beings by nature are curious pests like monkeys with speech, we are intrigued by our surroundings.

Commiting suicide is just accelerating the invetible process.

End of the day, u live, you die, end off. thats what all living things in the entire universe do, only difference is, is you are aware of it.

so, gutted your aware, but at the same time, being aware allows you actualy 'live life' unfortuantly u now know what it means to lose life.

its a gift and a curse i suppose. and you can either kid yourself and think theres somthing else to try and make it feel better, or accept life and get on with it.

I just get on with it.

[Metal Vendetta]

What's the point in existing if all things will come to dust and dust only, save only to procreate so your genes don't die? If what I am doesn't have some more relevance than knocking some poor girl up then it's a pretty sad existence imo.

The point is that your genes made it this far: you're alive. Congratulations. The point of the whole thing is to survive, to be alive. And as far as I'm concerned, that's it. You are alive, you have a short time to enjoy your existence, then you die. Knocking up some poor girl (aw...) only allows your offspring to enjoy the same. I never said that reproduction is the sole purpose of life.

Laugh, drink, have fun- not really much purpose if everything I love will eventually not only be taken from me but will utterly cease to be; I'd rather get it over with now and save the heartache, considering you end up in exactly the same way at the end of it. Whether one lives heartily or dies sadly you're still utterly destroyed, why not save the nonsense of living with all its set-backs and pains if all the good things you love and believe make it worthwhile are in fact as entirely meaningless as yourself?

Because we only have ourselves to relate these experiences to: if I am meaningless then so is chocolate ice cream, Optimus Prime and sex while wearing women's clothing. Some people never get the chance to enjoy these things, they die lonely and miserable after scratching a living from the soil. Usually accepting it as their lot in life because that's what they have been told their god expects of them.
Fun is only fun because we experience it. Without us there would be no fun, so we may as well make the most of it. And yes, in the end everyone dies and everything is destroyed. So it goes.

For the record being bad doesn't equal being disabled in any future life unless you go along with people like Glenn Hoddle. Kharma's a really difficult idea and varies from one philosophy to another- the general idea is that your 'actions' are neither good nor bad, but they have consequences and how the consequences reflect on you determines, amongst other things, how you will be reincarnated. Not afaik whether you will be crippled, mentally handicapped etc. but to do with whether or not you're 'kharmic potential' will come back as a human. Kharma is a philosophised extension of cause-and-effect imo (e.g. you're mean to someone, some time later you need help and said person is mean to you).

I know the Hoddle theory doesn't hold water, but what about those people who believe in a benevolent God? Are conjoined twins His idea of a joke, or something?