Question Time

[Bouncelot]

To be fair AFAIK we pay more tax than anywhere in Europe, not only income tax and NI tax but also VAT, council tax, stamp duty, fuel tax, road tax, taxes on savings, taxes on pensions, business tax and lots more besides.

Problem is figures on this are disparate as not everyone pays all taxes and not all taxes have the same rate for all people. Also the government rather inconveniently don't publish the rates in an easily understandable manner.

Most taxes in the UK and data for how much is reeped from them are available here.

OK, a quick websearch found this analysis of European tax structures, http://www.finfacts.com/biz10/europeanu ... ystems.htm

Note this paragraph:

Noticeable differences in the tax-to-GDP ratio and in the tax mixes are also present among the EU- 15 Member States. Regarding the total tax burden from the first (Sweden) to the last (Ireland) of the rank there is a difference of 22 percentage points. Highest tax ratios are found in Sweden, Denmark, Belgium and Finland whilst the lowest appears in Ireland, the UK, Spain Greece and Portugal. Some of the Nordic countries (i.e. Sweden, Denmark and Finland) have relatively high shares of direct taxes in total tax revenues, whereas some southern countries (in particular, Portugal and Greece) have relatively high shares of indirect taxes compared to the EU average. In Denmark, the United Kingdom and Ireland the shares of social contributions to total tax revenues are relatively low, whereas these shares are relatively high in Germany and, to a lesser extent, in France. More details on the structures of the taxation systems (by more detailed type of tax) in individual Member States are given in the country annexes in part III of this publication.

The UK has a very small tax rate relative to its national income by European standards.

[Bouncelot]

That gives an income of £150 per week, amounting to £7,800 per year. Now tell me, how much tax would you have to pay in order for them to effectively have more money than you? Yes, that's right, more than the Lib Dems are proposing.

thats not what im saying.

Its not about who has more money, its about

A. I cant live here anymore under the new rule

Let's see - Lib Dem proposals for tax changes are:
1) a higher tax rate on people earning over £50,000 pa, you won't be affected.
2) Changing council tax (based on the value of the house you live in) to income tax (based on the size of your income).
So if you think it's going to affect your ability to live, then you probably have a high income and live in a relatively cheap house. I'd love to be able to earn the £20,000 you're earning, but I doubt I'll get there in the next decade. To me, that sounds like a damn good income - particularly if you're sharing a house.

B. someone on befits, and lets get this clear, they get council house around here. they get to stay here. living isnt overtly expensive here, but housing is bloody expensive.

I have to leave bournemouth as said rule is *****.

Well, looking at the figures I found for student housing (most expensive area of Bournemouth had a "max rent" of £84, presumably per week), I'd guess that renting a house between 5 of you, as you say you're doing, can't cost a huge amount of money. I've managed to pay my current rent of slightly under £400 a month on an income that's half what you're currently earning, so I'm more than a bit incredulous at your claim that housing is so expensive that a small increase in the tax you're paying will drive you out of the town.

And like Karl said, we are already taxed to **** in this country so why I should be taxed even more because I dont earn the same as a 100k per year person is crap.

One, we do have a low tax burden compared to most European countries. Two, it's predominantly in indirect taxes, which generally means that poorer people pay more than their fair share - a switch towards income-related taxes will make the system more equitable. Three you won't be taxed as if you earn 100k unless you do earn 100k.

Lets make it clear, im earning 20k, good for me, im not rich.
but the ppl in my house make it seem likea 100k per year man, we do not live liuke that. we get by ok.
we are not rich.

You are compared to me. You are compared to the 3 billion people who live at or below the absolute poverty line. I have very little sympathy for people who earn large incomes and then complain about tax.

Yet im being penalised on stupid tax and am therefore worse off.

more amusing is the fact even tho i work hard, I have to leave bournemouth wheres 10'000's of ppl dont as they get free council houses.

Council houses are most definitely NOT free. You have to pay rent, the same as anywhere else.

Plain to see, and applicable across england.

LibDems have crap policys, head in the clouds.

You've yet to actually back up this claim.

[Kaylee]

To be fair AFAIK we pay more tax than anywhere in Europe, not only income tax and NI tax but also VAT, council tax, stamp duty, fuel tax, road tax, taxes on savings, taxes on pensions, business tax and lots more besides.

Problem is figures on this are disparate as not everyone pays all taxes and not all taxes have the same rate for all people. Also the government rather inconveniently don't publish the rates in an easily understandable manner.

Most taxes in the UK and data for how much is reeped from them are available here.

OK, a quick websearch found this analysis of European tax structures, http://www.finfacts.com/biz10/europeanu ... ystems.htm

Note this paragraph:

Noticeable differences in the tax-to-GDP ratio and in the tax mixes are also present among the EU- 15 Member States. Regarding the total tax burden from the first (Sweden) to the last (Ireland) of the rank there is a difference of 22 percentage points. Highest tax ratios are found in Sweden, Denmark, Belgium and Finland whilst the lowest appears in Ireland, the UK, Spain Greece and Portugal. Some of the Nordic countries (i.e. Sweden, Denmark and Finland) have relatively high shares of direct taxes in total tax revenues, whereas some southern countries (in particular, Portugal and Greece) have relatively high shares of indirect taxes compared to the EU average. In Denmark, the United Kingdom and Ireland the shares of social contributions to total tax revenues are relatively low, whereas these shares are relatively high in Germany and, to a lesser extent, in France. More details on the structures of the taxation systems (by more detailed type of tax) in individual Member States are given in the country annexes in part III of this publication.

The UK has a very small tax rate relative to its national income by European standards.

The problem with that is that gross domestic product is not an accurate measure for how all people's incomes are reflected regarding the taxes they acrue. It's an average, so all I'm hearing is we have lots of rich people who offset the balance?

[Impactor returns 2.0]

Let's see - Lib Dem proposals for tax changes are:
1) a higher tax rate on people earning over £50,000 pa, you won't be affected.
2) Changing council tax (based on the value of the house you live in) to income tax (based on the size of your income).
So if you think it's going to affect your ability to live, then you probably have a high income and live in a relatively cheap house. I'd love to be able to earn the £20,000 you're earning, but I doubt I'll get there in the next decade. To me, that sounds like a damn good income - particularly if you're sharing a house.

1) and when I do I wont like it. why should I be penalised for my own success?

doesnt work for me thanks.

2) as you can own an expensive house unless inherited without a high income, there is no problem with it.
I can on the other hand live in a shed with 5 ppl and be taxed to hell.
erm no.

Well, looking at the figures I found for student housing (most expensive area of Bournemouth had a "max rent" of £84, presumably per week), I'd guess that renting a house between 5 of you, as you say you're doing, can't cost a huge amount of money. I've managed to pay my current rent of slightly under £400 a month on an income that's half what you're currently earning, so I'm more than a bit incredulous at your claim that housing is so expensive that a small increase in the tax you're paying will drive you out of the town.

Thats student housing.
If you look up average house prices in bournemouth you will see that they are somthing like £237k. I cannot afford to live on my own, or can I get morgage to pay for a home. so my option is to rent or live with others, at which point we are stung in the ass.

It doesnt matter how you word it, it just doesnt work.

You are compared to me. You are compared to the 3 billion people who live at or below the absolute poverty line. I have very little sympathy for people who earn large incomes and then complain about tax.

I love this.
A, maybe to you, but not to others. (seen that two ronnies sketch?)
B, the 3billion others dont live here, and I dont live with them, nor could I earn what i earn in thier country. irrelevant.
C, tell you what, im gonna stop earning my money, stop educatiing myself, and generally stop being a good person. im gonna do feck all, so I dont have the right to complain about Tax. that way ill be another burnden on this society. with wich rich ppl can be taxed and fund me.
No.

Council houses are most definitely NOT free. You have to pay rent, the same as anywhere else.

Yeah, ever checked who pays when you get benfits...?

Im sorry, for me thats how I see it, thats my view, you have had your chance to change my opinion on these matters, I have had mine to change yours.
you will however not change my opinions here.
I feel perfectly justfied to myself over these matters, I am happy under the Labour government, I got what I wanted.
I dont want the LibDems in under thier current policys or under thier Leader. I think they area weak party, with un-realistic policys that cannot be implemented for the general good of this country.
I have spoken about these above as two such policys.
I do not have to keep going over this, I made it clear what I think and how I feel now.
Im not going to be changing my mind on matters. in short I dont except what your saying.
you dont except what im saying.
end of.