Question Time

[Metal Vendetta]

I was all set to vote Lib Dem but I found out my Labour candidate voted against the war, and is far more old than new Labour. I don't want to punish him for Blair's attitude, (though I would like to punish Blair) but at the same time I'm aware voting for him will strengthen Blair's hand.

Lib Dems are in second place. At least there's no chance of the Tories getting in.

[Autobloke]

To be frank and honest, it all confuses me still. If there was a 'no confidence' box to mark, I'd mark it in a second. The fact that my brain automatically turns off when politics comes near me makes it hard to tell the difference between the parties.
This is the first year that I'm considering not bothering at all - I usually just go for the leader that annoys me the least (Tony Blair: smug sneering git. Grr), and not for their policies. They just all seem the same to me now and are out to line their own pockets before they get booted out of whatever party they're (currently) in.
Is not voting because whichever party we get is the same as the others anyway (in my humble opinion) likely to be frowned upon? Nothing ever seems to improve, and the world is in decline anyway - something no t*t in a sweaty shirt and tie (that's ALL of the party leaders by the way) is going to change.
England, and the entire Earth is doomed.

Man, I'm SO frustrated today. I'll be glad when it's all over and things can continue as if nothing has changed - which it will.
Tory, Labour, Lib Dem: Spin the wheel...

[Bouncelot]

On the voting, issue, I understand what your saying, but the fact is ppl are voting LibDem as they are upset with Tony, it will only favour Mr Howard in the long run as thier voting isnt being devided.

You're again generalising. And actually, UKIP has a potential to split right-wing votes away from the tories as well.

So you have a very rich family. You can afford to pay more tax. You do not have my sympathy.

I love this: what if there 5 ppl in my house earning 20k per year?
Were not individualy considered rich, but are being treated as if we are.
Crap.

Well, firstly sharing a house massively cuts down your living costs, so you're all effectively richer than you would be if you were living alone. Secondly, you're still individually richer than I am, and under the current council tax system you would probably be paying less council tax than I currently have to living on my own.

the LibDems policys across the board are utter crap, half are Torie based or unfeasable.

The Lib Dems policies are less Tory than New Labour's. And at least they're honest enough to say that improving services means increasing taxes - their policies are more feasible than your average opposition party's.

I think there is some silver cloud where ppl hear the word 'Liberal' and think it must be good. that party lives in cloud cooku land, its useless.

You're making that up. I've not met anyone who's got that attitude.

As for consituancy voting, I again understand, what I was speaking of is ppl who do live in such swing areas. the Torys have based thier entire election fight on these swing areas, knowing by damming blair they can get Labour voters over to the LibDems, and thus take seats from Labour.[./quote]

If you're only talking about marginal constituencies, you really should have said so. And if the Tories' strategy was to drive labour voters towards the Lib Dems, then even if they suceeded they'd only manage a hung parliament, where Labour and the Lib Dems would probably share power.

TOrys are utter ****
LibDems are totaly useless, thier policys so out of whack, they have no idea. its just a nice idea. but in reality ********.

Whats sad is I have no choice, this country has 1 party worth it right now.[/url]

Like Besty said, you've not said anything to support this point.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

well I dont agree, I havent seen anything to support what your saying, ive not met anyone who can explain your view.

I can turn the TV on and all news channels are talking about what im saying.
And having read all the policys from both parties, the LibDems policys are complete and utter rubbish.
There are not feasible, they dont help our country, they are Tory based, not New Labour.

Here hoping Labour win, the only party worth the vote.

Im sorry if you dont like what I have to say.
LibDems is a nice idea, they have the word 'Liberal' in thier title. but they have [composite word including 'f*ck'] all proper ideas.

[Best First]

well I dont agree, I havent seen anything to support what your saying, ive not met anyone who can explain your view.

I can turn the TV on and all news channels are talking about what im saying.
And having read all the policys from both parties, the LibDems policys are complete and utter rubbish.
There are not feasible, they dont help our country, they are Tory based, not New Labour.

Here hoping Labour win, the only party worth the vote.

Im sorry if you dont like what I have to say.
LibDems is a nice idea, they have the word 'Liberal' in thier title. but they have **** all proper ideas.

any one remember posts with actual content? It snot about not liking what you say, its that it appears you have nothing to say.

Jesus.

[Bouncelot]

well I dont agree, I havent seen anything to support what your saying, ive not met anyone who can explain your view.

Did you read that independant article I linked to? 'Cos that explains exactly how voting lib dem won't let the tories in by the back door.

Here's the link again: http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politi ... ory=634378

I can turn the TV on and all news channels are talking about what im saying.

Well, Blair's trying to convince people to vote Labour not Lib Dem because, like all politicians, he doesn't want to lose any voters, even though there's almost no chance of Labour losing.

And having read all the policys from both parties, the LibDems policys are complete and utter rubbish.

Fine if that's your opinion, but don't expect me to agree just because you say so.

There are not feasible, they dont help our country, they are Tory based, not New Labour.

I've looked at the policies myself, and I see more similarity between Tory and New Labour policies than I do between Tory and Lib Dem. The Lib Dem's policies are certainly more realistic than the Tories' cut taxes, cut borrowing, increase spending plans, and seem to me to be as feasible as Labour's plans.

Here hoping Labour win, the only party worth the vote.

I'm hoping Labour win with a reduced majority, and that the Tories don't pick up any more seats.

Im sorry if you dont like what I have to say.
LibDems is a nice idea, they have the word 'Liberal' in thier title. but they have **** all proper ideas.

I don't like what you're saying only because you're saying something I don't agree with as if it were fact, and not bothering to justify it when it's challenged.

[Best First]

But its on TV! Its everywhere! Its obvioulsy right because it is!

[Nosecone]

So you have a very rich family. You can afford to pay more tax. You do not have my sympathy.

I love this: what if there 5 ppl in my house earning 20k per year?
Were not individualy considered rich, but are being treated as if we are.
Crap.

Well, firstly sharing a house massively cuts down your living costs, so you're all effectively richer than you would be if you were living alone. Secondly, you're still individually richer than I am, and under the current council tax system you would probably be paying less council tax than I currently have to living on my own.

As i'm in a similar situation to Mark (4 of us in one house earning full time wages) I fail to see why we should pay more despite the fact that someone living on their own may earn more than us but would pay less

Also I fail to see why my higher wages should compensate for peoples lower income. Its selfish I know but I have worked very hard studying and manageing a 40hr+ a week job whilst at uni to get to how I am and I frankly get pissed right off whenever I see some bums collecting their £70 a week benefits and pissing it all down the pub.

[Bouncelot]

I love this: what if there 5 ppl in my house earning 20k per year?
Were not individualy considered rich, but are being treated as if we are.
Crap.

Well, firstly sharing a house massively cuts down your living costs, so you're all effectively richer than you would be if you were living alone. Secondly, you're still individually richer than I am, and under the current council tax system you would probably be paying less council tax than I currently have to living on my own.

As i'm in a similar situation to Mark (4 of us in one house earning full time wages) I fail to see why we should pay more despite the fact that someone living on their own may earn more than us but would pay less

Well, the Lib Dem plans Mark was criticising would mean that the person on their own earning more than you would be paying more tax than you would be, because they favour moving council tax over to a local income tax. And that would mean that people living on their own would lose the 25% discount they currently enjoy.

Also I fail to see why my higher wages should compensate for peoples lower income. Its selfish I know but I have worked very hard studying and manageing a 40hr+ a week job whilst at uni to get to how I am and I frankly get pissed right off whenever I see some bums collecting their £70 a week benefits and pissing it all down the pub.

So you're against the idea that those that can afford to pay more tax should pay more tax?

[Nosecone]

So you're against the idea that those that can afford to pay more tax should pay more tax?

Yes, everyone with money on this planet has that money because of hard work by either themselves or their ancestors. As such they have the same claim to that money as someone with less had to their money.

[Kaylee]

So you're against the idea that those that can afford to pay more tax should pay more tax?

Yes, everyone with money on this planet has that money because of hard work by either themselves or their ancestors. As such they have the same claim to that money as someone with less had to their money.

What if you win it or are given it?

[Best First]

So you're against the idea that those that can afford to pay more tax should pay more tax?

Yes, everyone with money on this planet has that money because of hard work by either themselves or their ancestors. As such they have the same claim to that money as someone with less had to their money.

What about royalty?

What about families that stole stuff but found a way to legitimise their gains in the eyes of the law? Historically there have been all sorts of shennanigans along these lines.

What about he simple fact that money gives people greater opportunities - doesn't that tend to suggest that these people should contribute more in some way?

I think its safe to say i probably earn significantly more than most people who post here and i see no issue with contributing more because i am able - its not as if i lose out to the point where i am worse who even earn a little less than me by any streach of the imagnation.

The system you are advocating basically means that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, which is evidently crap.

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Did you read that independant article I linked to? 'Cos that explains exactly how voting lib dem won't let the tories in by the back door.

Yes I did. But i didnt feel it was true. -

simple town, 20 ppl. 10 vote tory, 10 vote labour, 5 labour voters get fed up, they hate the Torys so vote LibDem. Tory wins. even worse they just vote tory.
There is a smaller party, but they only account for about 1 vote at this scale. and again, it doesnt effect that the Torys win.

Now obviously this is to simplistic to chuck at the whole country, I never said that.
But heres the problem. the Torys election plan has been based on targeting swing seats. and in these areas, the above comes into startline effect.
TOnight im sure we will get to see this trend on the 'swing-ometer' - it will be itnteresting to see If the Tory plan worked.

I've looked at the policies myself, and I see more similarity between Tory and New Labour policies than I do between Tory and Lib Dem. The Lib Dem's policies are certainly more realistic than the Tories' cut taxes, cut borrowing, increase spending plans, and seem to me to be as feasible as Labour's plans.

Well I dissagree with you on whats got more relationship.
But off the top of my head under 'feasable plans'

No more student tuition fees. - thats not possible at all, somthing else has to give. thats higher taxs or a cut in the NHS, you choose.
This is the generall problem I have with parties not in power, they can just spout stuff like that, but have no real way of providing such a service.
IMO, your entilted to free education upto A-Level. you want a degree get a loan.
Considering most of the population dont go onto University, why should they pay for my privledge? - ill get a loan, and pay it back years from now when I can afford it. add it to my morgage or somthing, makes no odds. keeps taxes down.

Labours plans dont work on concepts of being 'feasible' they currently are working, they are in place. we have the best interest rates in Europe the strongest econemy this country has ever seen, and the lowest un-employment rates.

Back to the Tax system, involving me living in a house with 4 other ppl.

I was born In bournemouth, it has ended up being a place were wages are high but in reflection so is living.
Under a new LibDem gov, I would have to leave bournemouth as I cant afford to buy or rent here - and so would the rest of the ppl in my house.
So would 1000's of others. im now taking money from town, lowering the overal council budget, and the twon becomes worse as a whole. less money = lots of things, crappy services etc...

On the other hand, thier are ppl in bournemouth, claiming benfits, a free house and such. they can stay, but i have to leave. hmm, failing to see the good in this.
i provide for the town, I make money, I create new jobs, I bring in work.
I also pay for ppl to have a council house, and free money.
Yet I have to leave?
Or I could, like them, go on benifits and allow other ppl to be penalised for thier own success.

Not for me sorry. I work hard for a living, I have a right to what I earn, I have a right to live in this town. I wont be moved out due to some stupid idea.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

Just watching ITV.

according to thier chief voting anlyst.

In the marginal seats, what Labour warned off, ppl switching to LibDems, is Helping the Torys.

So, it wasnt a lie, its actually happening, im not talking **** either then.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

On a + note, looks like a Labour win.

[Kaylee]

looks like a Labour win.

ya think? glad I've got you to tell me these things eh?

[Best First]

Just watching ITV.

according to thier chief voting anlyst.

In the marginal seats, what Labour warned off, ppl switching to LibDems, is Helping the Torys.

So, it wasnt a lie, its actually happening, im not talking **** either then.

you weren't talking anything - the point is there was no content to what you are saying. You didn't bother to justify what you are saying - considering this is supposed to be a discussion forum it should be clear why that irritates people, especially when you are insisting they are wrong but don't actually seem capable of backing up what you are saying with logic or facts.

At least its clear why you like Tony then.

"I feel your point is wrong." Christ, new labour debating at its best.

and seeing as 3 seats are in at time of typing and they are all Labour it would appear you are counting your chickens a bit in terms of Tories gaining...

[Impactor returns 2.0]

I feel I have made my point well enough.

It does look like a Labour win

3:12am

[Bouncelot]

Did you read that independant article I linked to? 'Cos that explains exactly how voting lib dem won't let the tories in by the back door.

Yes I did. But i didnt feel it was true. -

simple town, 20 ppl. 10 vote tory, 10 vote labour, 5 labour voters get fed up, they hate the Torys so vote LibDem. Tory wins. even worse they just vote tory.
There is a smaller party, but they only account for about 1 vote at this scale. and again, it doesnt effect that the Torys win.

But nobody's been talking about such a massive shift. The calculations - based on actual figures - on which that article was written showed that without a swing to the Tories, the worst that could happen on the left-wing was a hung parliament. You might not believe it, but it was what the figures showed.

Now obviously this is to simplistic to chuck at the whole country, I never said that.

It was only in your last couple of posts that you said your comments only applied to those marginal seats, so naturally I assumed that you meant the whole country.

But heres the problem. the Torys election plan has been based on targeting swing seats. and in these areas, the above comes into startline effect.
TOnight im sure we will get to see this trend on the 'swing-ometer' - it will be itnteresting to see If the Tory plan worked.

Well, it looks like it did to a small extent. Of course, Labour still has a large majority despite a distinct swing from Labour to the Lib Dems - looks like your fears weren't justified.

I've looked at the policies myself, and I see more similarity between Tory and New Labour policies than I do between Tory and Lib Dem. The Lib Dem's policies are certainly more realistic than the Tories' cut taxes, cut borrowing, increase spending plans, and seem to me to be as feasible as Labour's plans.

Well I dissagree with you on whats got more relationship.
But off the top of my head under 'feasable plans'

No more student tuition fees. - thats not possible at all, somthing else has to give. thats higher taxs or a cut in the NHS, you choose.

Remind me which of the 3 main parties actually proposed a tax rise. Oh, wait it was the Lib Dems.

This is the generall problem I have with parties not in power, they can just spout stuff like that, but have no real way of providing such a service.
IMO, your entilted to free education upto A-Level. you want a degree get a loan.
Considering most of the population dont go onto University, why should they pay for my privledge? - ill get a loan, and pay it back years from now when I can afford it. add it to my morgage or somthing, makes no odds. keeps taxes down.

Whatever. I went to UNi just before they started making you pay for the privilege, and I think it's probably a good idea to have free university education.

Labours plans dont work on concepts of being 'feasible' they currently are working, they are in place. we have the best interest rates in Europe the strongest econemy this country has ever seen, and the lowest un-employment rates.

Sure I agree that Labour are doing well on that front, even though I voted Lib Dem.

[quote[Back to the Tax system, involving me living in a house with 4 other ppl.

I was born In bournemouth, it has ended up being a place were wages are high but in reflection so is living.
Under a new LibDem gov, I would have to leave bournemouth as I cant afford to buy or rent here - and so would the rest of the ppl in my house.
So would 1000's of others. im now taking money from town, lowering the overal council budget, and the twon becomes worse as a whole. less money = lots of things, crappy services etc...[/quote]

Why do you think that your house of 4 will be priced out of living in Bournemouth as a result of Lib Dem policies? If, as the Lib Dems propose, the tax burden shifts towards those with larger incomes, then anybody who is adversely affected can probably afford to pay it.

On the other hand, thier are ppl in bournemouth, claiming benfits, a free house and such. they can stay, but i have to leave. hmm, failing to see the good in this.
i provide for the town, I make money, I create new jobs, I bring in work.
I also pay for ppl to have a council house, and free money.
Yet I have to leave?
Or I could, like them, go on benifits and allow other ppl to be penalised for thier own success.

Well if you can't afford a small increase in tax, then I'm surprised that poorer people can still afford to live there.

Not for me sorry. I work hard for a living, I have a right to what I earn, I have a right to live in this town. I wont be moved out due to some stupid idea.

So how come you can't afford to live there, but someone living on the dole can? How come they're richer than you?

[Best First]

I feel I have made my point well enough.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

But nobody's been talking about such a massive shift. The calculations - based on actual figures - on which that article was written showed that without a swing to the Tories, the worst that could happen on the left-wing was a hung parliament. You might not believe it, but it was what the figures showed.

Well luckily it didnt happen, but thier is evidence to support the fact that swing seats were gaining more on a libDem front, which could have resulted in a hung parliment.
Having seen how Badley the Torys performed last night, a swing of 10% seems improbable now.

It was only in your last couple of posts that you said your comments only applied to those marginal seats, so naturally I assumed that you meant the whole country.

Fair enough, I just thought it was logical to assume it didnt mean every seat.

Well, it looks like it did to a small extent. Of course, Labour still has a large majority despite a distinct swing from Labour to the Lib Dems - looks like your fears weren't justified.

Yes but it has shown that voters were moving to LibDem, not Tory. which was my point.
It hasnt resulted in Mr Howard in No.10 but then maybe the country got wind of this tactic and changed thier vote? - we shall never know

This is the generall problem I have with parties not in power, they can just spout stuff like that, but have no real way of providing such a service.
IMO, your entilted to free education upto A-Level. you want a degree get a loan.
Considering most of the population dont go onto University, why should they pay for my privledge? - ill get a loan, and pay it back years from now when I can afford it. add it to my morgage or somthing, makes no odds. keeps taxes down.

Whatever. I went to UNi just before they started making you pay for the privilege, and I think it's probably a good idea to have free university education.

Whatever? ''Considering most of the population dont go onto University, why should they pay for my privledge? - ill get a loan, and pay it back years from now when I can afford it. add it to my morgage or somthing, makes no odds. keeps taxes down''
I think its a good idea we dont pay taxes, there are now wars all education is free...
Reality check, it cant happen.
Universitys offer such a broard range of courses, with each year more advanced media courses. the cost for my new course alone is about £20,000 a year in computer hardware. just for me!!
You cant expect ppl who have decenided to forgo uni to pay for my new expensive course!
It doesnt balance up, once before perhaps, but technolagy alone has made it expensive. and if you want the best in this country im sorry but the country alone cannot pay for it any more.
Personaly, by the time I can afford to pay off my student loan, ill add it to my morgage. big deal! oh my £200k morgage is now £215k.... ooo life changing, no, but the course was.

Why do you think that your house of 4 will be priced out of living in Bournemouth as a result of Lib Dem policies? If, as the Lib Dems propose, the tax burden shifts towards those with larger incomes, then anybody who is adversely affected can probably afford to pay it.

Because I will be taxed out of home and my county, and my job.
Hence crap policy.

Well if you can't afford a small increase in tax, then I'm surprised that poorer people can still afford to live there.

I said Benfits, council housing. - tech they cant afford to live here.

So how come you can't afford to live there, but someone living on the dole can? How come they're richer than you?

Like I said they claim benfits, and get given a house.

I on the other hand under the LibDem plan, I would be taxed out of my home. as even tho im earning 20k, im now essentially earning 100k what with everyone else in my house.

What my choice?

Get a flat. not in bournemouth, 1 room flat, £100k not worth it.
rent? - im not giving my money away
move? - more likely

So
a crap taxation system that would screw up the country.
Un-realistic policys for education
a weak leader

Im switched off by this point already. they are not a party worth voting for.

and besty - Ive made it clear enough over and over. if you cant be assed to read what I have to say. jog on.

[Best First]

Yes, i see you are good at repeating yourself. Seems kind of fruitless when your 'argeument' was soundly rebuffed first time round tho.

To be honest i was mainly laughing at your New Labour style response:

Can i coherently argue the point? No.
Can i prove it? No
But i feel it to be correct!

You can 'jog on' yourself mate. You seem to have taken pointers from the Ultimate Weapons school of debate, posting opinion without evidence and then when challenged putting the onus on everyone else to provide proof to the contrary and when they do just repeating your evidence free point and saying 'its obvious'.

It sucks the interest and ideology out of politcal debate. Which of course seems to be exactly what certain aspects of the political hierachy wants - why bother with real debate when half of the voters are happy with soundbites? Brilliant way to invest in our own democray...

Like how when you say 'can't live' in Bournemouth ( i see you can't actually provide any figures arod this, just keep saying ' i would have to move! i woudl have to move!) you seem to actually be saying ' i can't live in as big a place as i would like in Bournemouth'. Nice touch.

All this bull people spout about 'my money is my money' as well - ever use the roads? Been to a doctor? School? (why up to A-levesl by the way, not everyone does them - no logic see?) Not been invaded due to having a military? had your street cleaned or your bins collected? I could go on forever. Services cost money, therefore we have to pay for them.

Making people more accountable on how teh money is spent and the processes for spending that money more transparent is a different matter, and on that front Labour have been as bad as anyone due to their distribution of tax acros so many areas making it harder to even understand what it is you contribute to society anymore and therefore reducing their accounatbility.

[Kaylee]

Whatever? ''Considering most of the population dont go onto University, why should they pay for my privledge? - ill get a loan, and pay it back years from now when I can afford it. add it to my morgage or somthing, makes no odds. keeps taxes down''
I think its a good idea we dont pay taxes, there are now wars all education is free...
Reality check, it cant happen.
Universitys offer such a broard range of courses, with each year more advanced media courses. the cost for my new course alone is about £20,000 a year in computer hardware. just for me!!
You cant expect ppl who have decenided to forgo uni to pay for my new expensive course!
It doesnt balance up, once before perhaps, but technolagy alone has made it expensive. and if you want the best in this country im sorry but the country alone cannot pay for it any more.
Personaly, by the time I can afford to pay off my student loan, ill add it to my morgage. big deal! oh my £200k morgage is now £215k.... ooo life changing, no, but the course was.

I think thats awful- the idea that university graduates go out and start earning vast figures is a myth. The market is saturated with graduates, entirely thanks to the government pushing people through university- their target is for 50% of the population to have a degree.

imo a degree is a particular level of skill in a subject that should be relatively rare, that is what makes a degree worthwhile. This isn't like mandatory education where you're taught essentials, this is specialisation in a subject which should only be taught to people who really want it not just because it meets government figures or because it means you don't have to start work for an extra 3 years.

That's where the huge fragmentation of degree courses comes in, also trying to compensate for the utter lack of vocational training. Does one really need a degree in Tourism Management or Sports Studies, I ask? i think those are eminently more suited to vocational qualifications than making them degrees just for the sake of meeting admitance figures.

Free university tuition with a grant is in my view an investment. I'm almost certainly never going to have kids, unless my boyfriend suddenly discovers some miracle pregnancy drug, but I don't object to my taxes going in some part to child maintenance allowances and childrens education- its an investment in the future.

Similarly investing in highly qualified young people from all backgrounds (which should definitely be encouraged, obviously) in meaningful (subjective, I know) fields is planting seeds which will return fortunes in terms of skilled professionals, attracting businesses, high tax returns as (in theory, if we stop trying to make degrees mandatory and return to the concept of them being something that only those with a talent should undertake and cut the number of mickey mouse courses) degree students should be able to get better jobs (see proviso).

The money invested is more than warranted in my view. Further education is a privellige to those with an aptitude for it, not a right imo, similarly it is the states duty to train those with a capacity for it to the best of their abilities as in the long run its for the good of the country.

Otherwise why not make people pay for their own healthcare, as most people are going to be physically able afterwards and will be able to work it off. Why not get children to pay for their education on the same principles, the longer they stay in education the better the job they can get so the more money they can afford to pay back? Why not turn it on its head and give people a higher pension if they contract a terminal disease and won't live so long whilst claiming it?

imo anyways.

EDIT- statistical link from the government's national statistics office. only 65% of graduates actually go into a job after college. There is no evidence that suggest graduats immediately earn more than other workers, although in the long term obviously they will reach a higher income. {has ransacked all statistically archives at his disposal}

[Impactor returns 2.0]

Its not like I cant hear what your saying, but University seems to be costing more and more each year, mainly due to the nature of the courses. im trying to pull out the figures on annual cost.

It doesnt seem possible anymore for this country to fune an NHS system, and free University system, of the current standard. somthing has to give.

Id love free education, im going to uni this year, but im not naive enough to think this country can afford it. overall I feel its better for the country.

And I wont have to payback my loan untill im earning over a certain ammount with no interest against my fee. its not exactly bad to be honest.

[Kaylee]

I think if we restructure them it could be done, but I don't suppose it will happen anytime soon. TBH i would support a very small state if it were the same for everyone top and bottom of society.

[Best First]

I think if we restructure them it could be done, but I don't suppose it will happen anytime soon. TBH i would support a very small state if it were the same for everyone top and bottom of society.

i argree with more or less all of what you have posted, in the last 2 decades or so what was originally an elitist system as been opened up and marketed in the fashion that 'everyone should go to University'.

Irritatingly Blair has been a key exponent of encoyarging more people to go to Uni in the notion that it will help the economy but then uses it as an excsue for why people should have to pay for it.

Thsu whereas before we had a system that rewarded intelligence now we have a system that rewards those with the ability to pay, not to mention the factthat the curent and fture crops of graduates aren't just apying for themselves, but for teh debts accumulated prior to Tution Fees being introduced.

[Kaylee]

well it had to come I suppose, universities were about the only level of education government hadn't messed up... ho hum

I'm currently studying for my Microsoft certification (desktop support technician, making me: Karl Lynch, BSc MCDST ) in the hopes it will make me more employable, I plan to emigrate to the states after my degree yasee.

[Bouncelot]

Let's look at this claim that people on benefits can afford to live in Bournemouth, whilst people who earn £20,000 can't, even though they're living in a house with a combined income of £100,000.

Now, the Dole gives you approximately £50 per week (I think the figure's a bit higher, but let's stick with it for ease of calculation and there's £10 less for the under-25s). Housing benefit covers the cost of your rent, and no more. There are additional benefits available for parents, but that;s balanced out by the costs of having kids. Now, I've found a website that gives student rents in Bournemouth, and the highest fiure is £84, presumably per week. So, let's assume that housing benefit is £100 per week.

That gives an income of £150 per week, amounting to £7,800 per year. Now tell me, how much tax would you have to pay in order for them to effectively have more money than you? Yes, that's right, more than the Lib Dems are proposing.

As for being able to pay for the NHS, education, etc. European countries manage to pay for these things absolutely fine? How, because they have higher taxes than us, and guess what? their countries aren't collapsing under the strain of higher taxes.

[Kaylee]

To be fair AFAIK we pay more tax than anywhere in Europe, not only income tax and NI tax but also VAT, council tax, stamp duty, fuel tax, road tax, taxes on savings, taxes on pensions, business tax and lots more besides.

Problem is figures on this are disparate as not everyone pays all taxes and not all taxes have the same rate for all people. Also the government rather inconveniently don't publish the rates in an easily understandable manner.

Most taxes in the UK and data for how much is reeped from them are available here.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

That gives an income of £150 per week, amounting to £7,800 per year. Now tell me, how much tax would you have to pay in order for them to effectively have more money than you? Yes, that's right, more than the Lib Dems are proposing.

thats not what im saying.

Its not about who has more money, its about

A. I cant live here anymore under the new rule
B. someone on befits, and lets get this clear, they get council house around here. they get to stay here. living isnt overtly expensive here, but housing is bloody expensive.

I have to leave bournemouth as said rule is *****.

And like Karl said, we are already taxed to [composite word including 'f*ck'] in this country so why I should be taxed even more because I dont earn the same as a 100k per year person is crap.

Lets make it clear, im earning 20k, good for me, im not rich.
but the ppl in my house make it seem likea 100k per year man, we do not live liuke that. we get by ok.
we are not rich.

Yet im being penalised on stupid tax and am therefore worse off.

more amusing is the fact even tho i work hard, I have to leave bournemouth wheres 10'000's of ppl dont as they get free council houses.

Plain to see, and applicable across england.

LibDems have crap policys, head in the clouds.