Dr Who episodes!

Bouncelot · Post by **Bouncelot** » Wed Nov 16, 2005 5:56 pm

spiderfrommars wrote:With Sylv I think Remembrance, Fenric and Survival are wicked. Not that bothered about his others.

I take it you're one of those who didn't really "get" Ghost Light, then. Because I think that it's an all-time classic story, and I love the 7th Doc and Ace in it. Still, Sylv is still my favourite Doctor, so I'm biased.

Anyway, a list of complete Bill and Pat stories as of the last time I checked. And I agree that Ian and Barbara are better than any of Pat's companions - though Jamie/Victoria and Jamie/Zoe both work very well.

With Colin, he only had a couple of half-decent stories on TV.

Fortunately his novel and audio appearances have given him much better material, and shown us just how good he could have been on screen with decent scripts.

Bill:
An Unearthly Child
The Daleks
Inside the Spaceship
The Keys of Marinus
The Aztecs
The Sensorites
Planet of Giants
The Dalek Invasion of Earth
The Rescue
The Romans
The Web Planet
The Space Museum
The Chase
The Time Meddler
Galaxy 4
The Ark
The Gunfighters
The War Machines

Complete Pat stories:

The Tomb of the Cybermen
The Dominators
The Mind Robber
The Krotons
The Seeds of Death
The War Games

Post by **spiderfrommars** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 10:39 am

Cheers for the list Bounce. Didn't realise Bill had so many. Pat got quite shafted didn't he?

Talking of which, the more I see of Lost In Time the more depressed I get! Evil of the Daleks looks like a lost gem.

Ghost Light: I mentioned earlier in the thread what I thought. I've seen it again since and was still a bit frustrated by the way it was done. I'm still open to reassess it and could well do when I check out the DVD extras one day.

Bouncelot · Post by **Bouncelot** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 6:07 pm

spiderfrommars wrote:Cheers for the list Bounce. Didn't realise Bill had so many. Pat got quite shafted didn't he?

Yeah, most of his surviving eps are from his last season as well, so we don't get to see much of his early and middle stuff.

Talking of which, the more I see of Lost In Time the more depressed I get! Evil of the Daleks looks like a lost gem.

Yeah, Evil does look pretty good. Though it's always possible that the visuall part of it wouild have let it down. Even if that were the case, though it's criminal that Evil is gone and there's an episode of The Underwater Menace that survives.

Ghost Light: I mentioned earlier in the thread what I thought. I've seen it again since and was still a bit frustrated by the way it was done. I'm still open to reassess it and could well do when I check out the DVD extras one day.

It's probably the classic series story that stands up best to repeated viewing. Though there are moments that I think are clumsily executed, it's got a great atmosphere, a sparkling script, and the plot makes more sense the more you watch it. Plenty to unravel.

inflatable dalek · Post by **inflatable dalek** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 10:13 pm

It's a little late to mention this... But for those who were wondering if Davros was going to be in The Parting of the Ways (before it was broadcast, just in case the fallenones a member here...)

SPOILER FOR ANYONE WHO LISTENS TO BIG FINISH STUFF BUT HASN'T GOTTEN ROUND TO TERROR FIRMA YET...

The last Paul McGann audio has the Dalek's forcebly mutate Davros (or what little was left of him post-Rememberance) into their new Emporor, with no memory of his previous life left. Though the play in question was recorded a good while before the epsisode was shown, that means big D may well have been the Dalek God after all.

Bouncelot · Post by **Bouncelot** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 10:25 pm

inflatable dalek wrote:It's a little late to mention this... But for those who were wondering if Davros was going to be in The Parting of the Ways (before it was broadcast, just in case the fallenones a member here...)

SPOILER FOR ANYONE WHO LISTENS TO BIG FINISH STUFF BUT HASN'T GOTTEN ROUND TO TERROR FIRMA YET...

The last Paul McGann audio has the Dalek's forcebly mutate Davros (or what little was left of him post-Rememberance) into their new Emporor, with no memory of his previous life left. Though the play in question was recorded a good while before the epsisode was shown, that means big D may well have been the Dalek God after all.

I hadn't listened to Terra Firma yet. Hearing that they were deliberately retconning away a previous reference to the novels means that I am NOT going to give Big Finish any money for this particular audio. Your theory seems plausible, though. I wonder what happens to the Dalek Prime, then.

inflatable dalek · Post by **inflatable dalek** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 10:35 pm

The Daleks in TF are entirely new, created by Davros after Skaro did the big firework, so he's just in charge (till they turn on him)... I've not read War of the Dalek's, but apparently it's not completely impossible to fit the two together, it just takes as much strain as fiting Back From the Dead and Salvage into the same continuity. Arrangements for War is the audio that does shatter all links by being firmly the first Mel/Evelyn meeting.

There's one big advantage to them droping the book stuff though, we won't have to listen to Sophie Aldred's atempts to play Space Bitch Ace again.

Bouncelot · Post by **Bouncelot** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 10:43 pm

inflatable dalek wrote:The Daleks in TF are entirely new, created by Davros after Skaro did the big firework, so he's just in charge (till they turn on him)... I've not read War of the Dalek's, but apparently it's not completely impossible to fit the two together, it just takes as much strain as fiting Back From the Dead and Salvage into the same continuity. Arrangements for War is the audio that does shatter all links by being firmly the first Mel/Evelyn meeting.

There's one big advantage to them droping the book stuff though, we won't have to listen to Sophie Aldred's atempts to play Space Bitch Ace again.

Hm, one single consolation, though I like Space Bitch Ace as portrayed in the novels. Still, if they go that extra bit further in severing continuities, I might be forced to declare them non-canon, which will save me a lot of work. That's two consolations. Any more?

inflatable dalek · Post by **inflatable dalek** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 10:49 pm

Bouncelot wrote:Hm, one single consolation, though I like Space Bitch Ace as portrayed in the novels. Still, if they go that extra bit further in severing continuities, I might be forced to declare them non-canon, which will save me a lot of work. That's two consolations. Any more?

Real Time is also no longer canon, so we don't have to worry about that cliffhanger anymore...

Bouncelot · Post by **Bouncelot** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 10:52 pm

inflatable dalek wrote:
Bouncelot wrote:Hm, one single consolation, though I like Space Bitch Ace as portrayed in the novels. Still, if they go that extra bit further in severing continuities, I might be forced to declare them non-canon, which will save me a lot of work. That's two consolations. Any more?
Real Time is also no longer canon, so we don't have to worry about that cliffhanger anymore...

Can we find a way to make Spiral Scratch not canon so I don't have to worry about the mucking-up of NA continuity wrt the Sixth/Seventh Doctor's regeneration?

inflatable dalek · Post by **inflatable dalek** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 11:08 pm

It's all down to the BF/BBC books people deciding that if they're going to atract the new shows audience to their products slavishly following continuity in books now often long out of print isn't goign to help.

Though they might as well not have bothered, instead of atracting new buyers sales of the books and audios (or anything with the blue logo) have actually fallen drasticly since the new season, people seemingly have lost interest in the pre-Eccles stuff. Shame really because after a brief dip the BF stuff is fairly strong at the moment, Terror Firma, for all the continuity, is an extraordinary piece of work.

Bouncelot · Post by **Bouncelot** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 11:16 pm

Actually, sales for the past Doctor books appear to have risen - The Gallifrey Chronicles was Lance Parkin's biggest selling EDA, for example. And with the demise of the PDAs, Big Finish is missing an opportunity to attract EDA/PDA fans by including their continuity. Besides, it's incredibly easy to write a story that doesn't tread on anybody's toes continuity-wise.

Legion · Post by **Legion** » Fri Nov 18, 2005 2:32 pm

Bouncelot wrote:Besides, it's incredibly easy to write a story that doesn't tread on anybody's toes continuity-wise.

Yes, BF seem to be deliberating going out of their way to distance themselves from the book-line, which is a real shame. Whilst i can understand that they want to take things in their own direction and not be tied to stuff in the books, i think that the Who-universe is suitably big and diverse to be able to do that anyway, without the contradictions.

(Possible BF spoilers follow).

...

The first big clash i noticed was in Neverland (or was it Zagreus?) where the Doctor is told about his adventures in other, parallel realities, some of which bare a striking resemblance to events in the books (namely "Henrietta Street") as memory serves me.

Whilst being a nice nod to the books, in doing it this way they've torn themselves a seperate canon and are forcing fans to choose either the books or the audios as canon. which is a bloody stupid move as they must be aware of how finicky Who fans can be about canon and, quite possibly, are shooting themselves in the foot doing so.

I've not got Terra Firma yet, but i've heard about the whole Sam/Samson retcon. Is that the only one in that (apart from this Davros business)? I guess it could be worked around if we pretend that the Doc has travelled with both Sam and Samson at various times? Or is it handled in a way that that isn't possible?

inflatable dalek · Post by **inflatable dalek** » Fri Nov 18, 2005 3:12 pm

It's entirely possiable the Doctor could travel with Sam at some point after Terror Firma... However, the whole "The BF EDA's take place during Vampire Science theory was looking particualy shaky even before the retcon, the 8th Doctor's charecter as played by McGann has evolved in such a way that it's hard to see him as the same charecter who was in the first few years of the books.

Legion · Post by **Legion** » Fri Nov 18, 2005 5:43 pm

inflatable dalek wrote:It's entirely possiable the Doctor could travel with Sam at some point after Terror Firma... However, the whole "The BF EDA's take place during Vampire Science theory was looking particualy shaky even before the retcon, the 8th Doctor's charecter as played by McGann has evolved in such a way that it's hard to see him as the same charecter who was in the first few years of the books.

True, however what if the BF series comes after the books? Who's the say what happens to the Doc (and his mind) after The Gallifrey Chronicles? The big "restoration" (as it were, in an attempt to try and avoid spoilers) might have series ramifications on his memory! It might then lead into Storm Warning?

Bouncelot · Post by **Bouncelot** » Fri Nov 18, 2005 6:07 pm

I think it's better to have Big Finish elsewhere than the Vampire Science gap - which I'd reserve for the Radio Times and DWM comic strips. Possibilities include after Seeing I (following on from the remake of Shada), and after Interference (which means that the Big Finish Doctor is under the influence of the Faction Paradox virus - which fits very nicely with all those paradoxes in Big Finish). There is also the possibility of being after Gallifrey is restored following The Gallifrey Chronocles - but then you have to work out whether they're before or after The Infinity Doctors.

As to the Sam/Samson thing, you can easily work around it, but I really object to taking time out of an audio for the sole reason of retconning away a throwaway reference to the novels from an audio that is several years old.

inflatable dalek · Post by **inflatable dalek** » Fri Nov 18, 2005 8:46 pm

Bouncelot wrote:I think it's better to have Big Finish elsewhere than the Vampire Science gap - which I'd reserve for the Radio Times and DWM comic strips.

The DWM strips (which are my personal favorite Eighth Doctor stories) are definately not part of the same canon as the books, Ground Zero seperated the two lines in a very permanent way.

Legion · Post by **Legion** » Fri Nov 18, 2005 9:54 pm

Bouncelot wrote:I think it's better to have Big Finish elsewhere than the Vampire Science gap - which I'd reserve for the Radio Times and DWM comic strips. Possibilities include after Seeing I (following on from the remake of Shada), and after Interference (which means that the Big Finish Doctor is under the influence of the Faction Paradox virus - which fits very nicely with all those paradoxes in Big Finish). There is also the possibility of being after Gallifrey is restored following The Gallifrey Chronocles - but then you have to work out whether they're before or after The Infinity Doctors.

As to the Sam/Samson thing, you can easily work around it, but I really object to taking time out of an audio for the sole reason of retconning away a throwaway reference to the novels from an audio that is several years old.

Ahhh! Nice thinking with the faction paradox line of thinking, that does make sense to me, just think, Zagreus would've been quite the ultimate faction paradox agent!!

Bouncelot · Post by **Bouncelot** » Fri Nov 18, 2005 9:59 pm

Legion wrote:
Bouncelot wrote:I think it's better to have Big Finish elsewhere than the Vampire Science gap - which I'd reserve for the Radio Times and DWM comic strips. Possibilities include after Seeing I (following on from the remake of Shada), and after Interference (which means that the Big Finish Doctor is under the influence of the Faction Paradox virus - which fits very nicely with all those paradoxes in Big Finish). There is also the possibility of being after Gallifrey is restored following The Gallifrey Chronocles - but then you have to work out whether they're before or after The Infinity Doctors.

As to the Sam/Samson thing, you can easily work around it, but I really object to taking time out of an audio for the sole reason of retconning away a throwaway reference to the novels from an audio that is several years old.
Ahhh! Nice thinking with the faction paradox line of thinking, that does make sense to me, just think, Zagreus would've been quite the ultimate faction paradox agent!!

If only I was the one who thought of it. I actually nicked the idea from somebody on the Doctor Who Continuity Cops Yahoo Group.

Legion · Post by **Legion** » Fri Nov 18, 2005 10:06 pm

Bouncelot wrote:
Legion wrote:
Bouncelot wrote:I think it's better to have Big Finish elsewhere than the Vampire Science gap - which I'd reserve for the Radio Times and DWM comic strips. Possibilities include after Seeing I (following on from the remake of Shada), and after Interference (which means that the Big Finish Doctor is under the influence of the Faction Paradox virus - which fits very nicely with all those paradoxes in Big Finish). There is also the possibility of being after Gallifrey is restored following The Gallifrey Chronocles - but then you have to work out whether they're before or after The Infinity Doctors.

As to the Sam/Samson thing, you can easily work around it, but I really object to taking time out of an audio for the sole reason of retconning away a throwaway reference to the novels from an audio that is several years old.
Ahhh! Nice thinking with the faction paradox line of thinking, that does make sense to me, just think, Zagreus would've been quite the ultimate faction paradox agent!!
If only I was the one who thought of it. I actually nicked the idea from somebody on the Doctor Who Continuity Cops Yahoo Group.

Ahhh!! Still, a good theory and one i'd be quite happy to go along with.

inflatable dalek · Post by **inflatable dalek** » Fri Nov 18, 2005 10:12 pm

Legion wrote:Ahhh! Nice thinking with the faction paradox line of thinking, that does make sense to me, just think, Zagreus would've been quite the ultimate faction paradox agent!!

Considering Zagreus did little more than throw a few pans about and shouting a lot that's probably a bit insulting to Faction Paradox...

Legion · Post by **Legion** » Sat Nov 19, 2005 12:27 am

inflatable dalek wrote:
Legion wrote:Ahhh! Nice thinking with the faction paradox line of thinking, that does make sense to me, just think, Zagreus would've been quite the ultimate faction paradox agent!!
Considering Zagreus did little more than throw a few pans about and shouting a lot that's probably a bit insulting to Faction Paradox...

heheh, but that was proto-zagreus, if the doc had been totally consumed by him, goodness knows what he could have become!

i think it was a bit of a problem BF had there actually, they'd made Zagreus out to be this big bad, um, baddie, but then had to somewhat rein him in otherwise he would have, well, won...

inflatable dalek · Post by **inflatable dalek** » Sat Nov 19, 2005 12:32 pm

Plus his (or rather her by that point) defeat in Neverland was insanely easy...

Legion · Post by **Legion** » Sat Nov 19, 2005 2:58 pm

inflatable dalek wrote:Plus his (or rather her by that point) defeat in Neverland was insanely easy...

Memory fails me as to the details but didn't he have a drink and all was better or something?

To be honest, i think the whole Zagreus thing was built up so nicely and then executed really appallingly by the writers...

Plus by this point Charley was really, really, starting to piss me off didn't help my enjoyment of that installment i have to say.

Tho, i couldn't help myself, but I did like that Zagreus nursery ryhme!

Post by **spiderfrommars** » Mon Nov 21, 2005 11:40 am

Saw the episode of the Underwater Menace. So why's this story so despised?

Bouncelot · Post by **Bouncelot** » Mon Nov 21, 2005 5:47 pm

spiderfrommars wrote:Saw the episode of the Underwater Menace. So why's this story so despised?

A scene containing the phrase "nothink in ze vorld can shtop me now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" comes to mind. If it had been any other episode of this story that survived, it would probably be held in higher (or at least less low) esteem by fandom.

Legion · Post by **Legion** » Mon Nov 21, 2005 7:10 pm

Bouncelot wrote:
spiderfrommars wrote:Saw the episode of the Underwater Menace. So why's this story so despised?
A scene containing the phrase "nothink in ze vorld can shtop me now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" comes to mind. If it had been any other episode of this story that survived, it would probably be held in higher (or at least less low) esteem by fandom.

is that the Pat Troughton story with the bad fish-people costumes?
ugh...

still, Polly's in it...

Post by **spiderfrommars** » Mon Nov 21, 2005 7:45 pm

Yes that guy was OTT (I remember him doing another daft turn in Diamonds Are Forever) but its not the worst case of hamming it up in Who surely?

The underwater scenes I thought were really nice. More successful I'd say than some of the stuff in Web Planet. I guess if this was Pat's worst, then his stint on the series must have had a very good standard indeed.

I've decided Pat is better than Bill again. He just seems so in control. I think its a real shame there aren't many more Ben/Polly stories in existence. I like them - they were a strong point in War Machines.

I'm on Moonbase next.

Legion · Post by **Legion** » Mon Nov 21, 2005 8:26 pm

spiderfrommars wrote: I've decided Pat is better than Bill again. He just seems so in control. I think its a real shame there aren't many more Ben/Polly stories in existence. I like them - they were a strong point in War Machines.

Characterwise or personally (in control?)

I think that's part of the charm of Bill's Doc tho.
And yeah, the Ben/Polly combo was very good i agree (from what we're able to see from it anyway!)

... and apart from the fact she's a swinging 60's chick and he's a sailor, i mean, hello?

spiderfrommars wrote:I'm on Moonbase next.

I think you'll enjoy that one (what's left of it), mind you i might be biased because of the villians!

Stormwolf · Post by **Stormwolf** » Mon Nov 21, 2005 8:44 pm

How about some newer stuff, it seems that some of the Doctor's old enemies have their own website now:

http://www.cybuscorporation.com/

This seems very similar to the sites that the series Lost has:

http://www.thehansofoundation.org/

Bouncelot · Post by **Bouncelot** » Mon Nov 21, 2005 9:22 pm

spiderfrommars wrote:Yes that guy was OTT (I remember him doing another daft turn in Diamonds Are Forever) but its not the worst case of hamming it up in Who surely?

Probably not, but it is the most infamous.

Stormwolf wrote:How about some newer stuff, it seems that some of the Doctor's old enemies have their own website now:

http://www.cybuscorporation.com/

I hadn't noticed this yet. Obviously I'm not following new series news too closely.