Estriol

Metal Vendetta · Post by **Metal Vendetta** » Tue Dec 16, 2014 11:03 pm

http://capesandwhips.com/codeword-manga ... in-comics/

So I don't really speak SJW, so a lot of this went over my head and most of it appears to be utter bollocks, but apparently this means that James Roberts has now retconned Estriol, the Transformers version of œstrogen, out of existence because it implies that "only cis women are real women". Now I'm aware that Roberts can make whatever changes to his creation as he sees fit, but Nautica (who's a character I really like) containing Estriol is like my girlfriend (who I also really like) containing œstrogen, it's a direct analogy to biological fact. It doesn't change the status of "real women" being analogous to only cis women one way or the other. Considering the huge amount of grief we got from the SJWs over shoehorning female characters into the genderless world of robots in the first place, subsequently removing the element that makes them female is a bit, er, mental. I know for a fact that my sister will be well pissed off when she finds out.

I'm not averse to having Trans* characters in MTMTE at all, in fact I'm really interested to see how Roberts handles it - after hearing that it was something he'd been thinking about I honestly thought the female "Rung" protester in the latest issue was him beginning to touch on that. I thought "ooh, this'll be good", 'cause, she's on a Cybertron which may not have had any contact with Caminus. And besides, what happened on Caminus doesn't dictate what happened to the rest of the Transformer race anyway - if gender is a naturally occurring Camian trait (as seems to have been Mairghread Scott's intention) then the presence of Estriol (and presumably Testriol) in the Camians makes sense. It doesn't say anything about what constitutes gender in the wider Cybertronian race, it doesn't say anything about what constitutes a "real woman" or even preclude the existence of Trans* Camians for that matter. Heck, we don't even know if Windblade or Chromia are Estriol-positive, they could be totally different spark-types to Nautica because there appear to be at least six types amongst common or garden Cybertronian Transformers of which the Camians could share some, all, or none. The one bit of Windblade that I really liked was the idea that there were whole other populations of Transformers out there where they were beasts, or conjoined at the spark, or gendered, or some other variation on our basic genderless G1 'bots.

So yeah, I think this was a bad call by Roberts. I know it's only a minor thing and I really shouldn't care, but it's really taken the edge off what should be an evening of nail-biting MTMTE anticipation. I don't mind an error being corrected in trade, but going back to change a minor detail - the very stuff of MTMTE - seems wrong. And just after an issue on thoughtcrime, no less.

bumblemusprime · Post by **bumblemusprime** » Wed Dec 17, 2014 1:54 am

Two things:

1) I thought "Estriol" was a cheap prescription drug, and this was part of the spamwave,

2) I wouldn't say she's speaking SJW so much as she's speaking queer theory. Theory of any stripe is generally a bit garbled and obsessed with the Derridean differánce, in which definitions of things like gender break down.

For those of us who didn't finish reading Windblade, and don't quite care to, you have a good recap for this Estriol business?

Metal Vendetta · Post by **Metal Vendetta** » Wed Dec 17, 2014 10:18 am

Theory of any stripe is generally a bit garbled

I did try to read that article all the way through, honestly I did, but it was written with such impenetrable snark and kept veering off into nonsensical elephant wank like "Tailgate, Cyclonus and Whirl are female characters because...er, because I say they are!" that I had to keep punching myself in the face just to stay sane long enough to find the bit where she starts bitching about Estriol.

For those of us who didn't finish reading Windblade, and don't quite care to, you have a good recap for this Estriol business?

Well Windblade established that the three female Transformers we got lumbered with after Dark Cybertron were from a hot spot aboard the Metrotitan Caminus and they had naturally occurring genders ("male" Transformers were also hinted at). In the last issue Windblade joined minds with Metroplex and through his space bridge link to the other Metrotitans she discovered that there were other planets that had been populated in a similar way - one looked like Velocitron from Cybertron (but with characters from Prime), one was all beasty and we saw Injector and Air Hammer there and one was seemingly populated by Micromaster combiners where we saw Vanquish and Fireshot (which makes Vanquish's appearance as a regular Decepticon in the new Drift a massive continuity flub, but I digress).

The "problematic" issue was MTMTE #31, "Twenty Plus One", where Megs and co. were stranded aboard the Rodpod and Ratchet gave Nautica's spark-type as Estriol-positive. Turns out estriol is actually a type of œstrogen. So after getting all upset over having a genderless Transformer artificially turned into a female in Spotlight: Arcee, the SJWs then got all upset because Roberts attempted to explain naturally occurring female Transformers in an analogous way to how females naturally occur in the real world and so Roberts has gone back and erased Estriol from the comic to appease them.

The more I think about it, considering the Orwellian themes of MTMTE S2 so far, I'm not sure if this isn't just some kind of elaborate meta-joke in which the writer goes back to re-edit his work in order to bring it into line with a new fascist social order. It's about the only way I can square an apparently sane person paying the slightest attention to this sort of bull****, much less going back and changing his work to accommodate it. Repeat after me: Nautica's spark is Ferrum-positive. Nautica's spark has always been Ferrum-positive. Everyone's shape serves a purpose. Ignorance is strength.

Brendocon · Post by **Brendocon** » Wed Dec 17, 2014 9:52 pm

My head hurts.

Metal Vendetta · Post by **Metal Vendetta** » Thu Dec 18, 2014 12:44 am

Imagine a bunch of social justice warriors have a hotline to God. Well, imagine God exists first, then imagine the rest. So the SJWs have a ton of sand in their vaginas because God has introduced the idea of cis women to His previously gender-free universe at their insistence - but they subsequently think that the very concept of cis women somehow precludes the idea of trans women existing in that universe, so God decides to go back in time and erases cis women from history.

Now imagine God's latest work involves heavy Orwellian themes and a character going back in time to try and win the war for the Decepticons and layer on the irony.

Or, just try and read that article I linked in my first post. It's literally the dumbest piece of **** you will (hopefully) ever encounter. It's unreadable unless you're a hyperactive six year-old who's just swallowed a sociology textbook. Now imagine James Roberts read that and thought, "You know, this person makes some good points" instead of thinking "You know, this person is a ****ing idiot".

Brendocon · Post by **Brendocon** » Thu Dec 18, 2014 9:53 am

Let me see if I've got this:

- Writer decides to take on the Elephant In The Room.
- Comes up with an explanation for not only what an Elephant is, but also contextual definitions for Non-Elephants and Anti-Elephants, PLUS establishes that a lot of it depends on which Room they're in.
- Fans decide this still isn't ******* good enough so transpose another aspect of human gender identity onto the alien race just so that they've still got something to bitch about.

Yeah?

There are times I'm disappointed I jumped off before MTMTE. But then stuff happens that reminds me no matter how much things change, it's still the same bunch of muppets being catered to.

Post by **snarl** » Thu Dec 18, 2014 10:10 am

When I see these ****** stupid pieces I invariably picture a speng sitting at home, refreshing the screen to see if there's been a reply, good or bad. To either fawn over / with, or have a row with. Because they're basically bored and want some attention.

Fare ****s. I personally found the linked article complete **** and stopped reading afte a paragraph. I think that's the kind of response most would have.

Yeah, Transformers is followed by all types of *****.

This board is where the cool ones live.

Post by **Best First** » Thu Dec 18, 2014 10:26 am

social justice warrior is an incredibly dipsh*t term.

If you are going to disagree with peopel just disagree with them, don't try and lump them into perjorative groups.

bumblemusprime · Post by **bumblemusprime** » Thu Dec 18, 2014 4:47 pm

Best First wrote:social justice warrior is an incredibly dipsh*t term.

If you are going to disagree with peopel just disagree with them, don't try and lump them into perjorative groups.

Yeah, not a fan of using "social justice" in a disparaging way. The whole US is on fire because white cops like to kill black people whenever they want. Could use a little social justice.

Diss on literary theory all you want, though. I hate that ****.

I'm still a bit confused. So, what the hell does this mean: https://www.tumblr.com/search/estriol+sparktype

Because the Caminaeans ARE female, yes? But now we're saying that only Caminaeans are female, and there isn't a specific female sparktype?

This is a lot more clear than anything I've read on the subject thus far as a summary, whether or not you agree. Also notable for pointing out that Simon Furman was, until the Windblade series, the only TF author who ever passed the Bechdel Test. I tried to say, in my reporting, that he's actually quite good at developing female human characters, but everyone seems to have overlooked that in the jump on Spotlight Arcee.

Post by **Best First** » Thu Dec 18, 2014 4:54 pm

that's why it's such a ridiculous insult - anyone who rails against someone who they characterise as fighting for social justice is surely more of a berk than the person they are attacking.

Not really sure what the big issue is here anyway - someone wrote a self indulgent badly structured blog on an issue that matters more to them than most other people. ON THE INTERNET. Stop the clocks!

It's taken 32 years but i have come round to the whole female Transformer thing anyway.

Post by **Computron** » Thu Dec 18, 2014 5:10 pm

Best First wrote:
Not really sure what the big issue is here anyway - someone wrote a self indulgent badly structured blog on an issue that matters more to them than most other people. ON THE INTERNET. Stop the clocks!

http://xkcd.com/386/

In any case, I read the blog. Or at least most of it since it took ages for her to get to the meat of the issue. I think I understood her points, as MTMTE is certainly avant garde in a lot of areas, and I can see why the LGBT community would respond to that in a positive way. Beyond that I was reminded of Freud's line that "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."

But you know, MTMTE makes her feel good, and it makes us feel good for varying reasons, some the same, some different. So I say live and let live.

I think we can all agree that Roberts is writing about people. Whether they happen to be male, female, gay, straight, lesbian, or whatever, I almost think doesn't even enter Roberts' mind. He just writes what feels right for the story. It was right that Rewind and Chromedome are in a relationship. I doubt Robert's cares whether that makes them gay. He just knows its good that they are together. Let other people work out whether Rewind is gay.

bumblemusprime · Post by **bumblemusprime** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 1:13 am

Felt it was my duty to report on this:

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2014/12/18/ ... nsformers/

Post by **Computron** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 2:24 am

bumblemusprime wrote:Felt it was my duty to report on this:

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2014/12/18/ ... nsformers/

Well reported. Seems like Roberts doesnt really have a problem with it and wanted it changed.

Post by **Best First** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 9:12 am

bumblemusprime wrote:Felt it was my duty to report on this:

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2014/12/18/ ... nsformers/

Hmm. do "Sparks double as Transformer CPUs"? The CPU is the brain module surely? - in commenting on an attempt to clarify transformer biology you have disseminated more confusion

Anyway - i agree with Comps. I read the blog, it is not particulartly well written, there are some interesting points in there, the author obvioulsy gets a lot out of MTMTE and this change, as far as i can tell does not in any way stop me enjoying MTMTE the way i enjoy it. Or to put it another way i didn't even ****ing notice Nautica's spark type.

Having now read up on it all though - i can't help but feel that a more fluid interpritation/definition/possibility of gender in TFs, now the genie is out of the bottlw makes for a more interesting universe and story/character potential - so what is the problem?

Equally, if the whole point of introducing female transfomers (or introducing gender depending on how you look at it) was to make transformers more accessable, more relatable and remove an overhang of 80's gender bias (which as i say i think the scales have finally fallen from my eyes on after a very long time) then surely correcting a potential, minor, misstep in that goal makes sense.

So i fail to understand the complaint.

Brendocon · Post by **Brendocon** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 11:03 am

Anyway this is all far too confusing for me. I'm going back to my stack of X-Men comics. No controversial retcons to be had in th- oh.

bumblemusprime · Post by **bumblemusprime** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 6:11 pm

Best First wrote:
bumblemusprime wrote:Felt it was my duty to report on this:

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2014/12/18/ ... nsformers/
Hmm. do "Sparks double as Transformer CPUs"? The CPU is the brain module surely? - in commenting on an attempt to clarify transformer biology you have disseminated more confusion

Anyway - i agree with Comps. I read the blog, it is not particulartly well written, there are some interesting points in there, the author obvioulsy gets a lot out of MTMTE and this change, as far as i can tell does not in any way stop me enjoying MTMTE the way i enjoy it. Or to put it another way i didn't even ****ing notice Nautica's spark type.

Having now read up on it all though - i can't help but feel that a more fluid interpritation/definition/possibility of gender in TFs, now the genie is out of the bottlw makes for a more interesting universe and story/character potential - so what is the problem?

Equally, if the whole point of introducing female transfomers (or introducing gender depending on how you look at it) was to make transformers more accessable, more relatable and remove an overhang of 80's gender bias (which as i say i think the scales have finally fallen from my eyes on after a very long time) then surely correcting a potential, minor, misstep in that goal makes sense.

So i fail to understand the complaint.

I dunno, I chose CPU (also admittedly wrote that in a flash) because TFs lose their brain modules all the time and live. So maybe the brain module is more analogous to a hard drive--could be damaged, but data can be recovered and replaced, whereas the spark means there's nothing to do but save the parts.

Obvs this comparison doesn't entirely hold up also because Transformers are not Dell products.

bumblemusprime · Post by **bumblemusprime** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 4:34 am

More thoughts from Roberts.

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sj9u8i

Post by **Best First** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 7:23 am

Bravo

Post by **Best First** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 7:43 am

More importantly. - BREND IS NOT READING MTMTE?

Brendocon · Post by **Brendocon** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 1:11 pm

Not news Besterz.

I've got the first Phase Two hardcover sat in the "to read" pile and might even get through it before the end of the year. Beyond that I dunno.

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Sun Dec 21, 2014 10:35 am

Apart from story telling fun.
Why do transformers need a gender?

bumblemusprime · Post by **bumblemusprime** » Thu Jan 15, 2015 1:42 am

So, the thread on my article is now six pages long and devolved into political argument on the IDW forum. Yay me?

Post by **snarl** » Thu Jan 15, 2015 1:09 pm

Would anybody be surprised if this guy azraelklk was shot down in a hail of bullets for running at a school full of kids with his trousers and pants round his ankles, doing the body snatchers point and face?

Metal Vendetta · Post by **Metal Vendetta** » Thu Jan 15, 2015 3:04 pm

Best First wrote:social justice warrior is an incredibly dipsh*t term.

...and used to describe incredibly dipsh*t people. UrbanDictionary has it about right, I think - the term is couched in irony because the people it's used to describe are neither "warriors" in any real sense, nor do they seem particularly interested in social justice.

Post by **Best First** » Fri Jan 16, 2015 11:29 pm

Huh. Guess you are using it wrong then. That description doesn't apply to the person who wrote that blog. They obviously care quite deeply about this topic and I don't see anything there to say they are writing the blog for some kind of social aggrandisement. If they were interested in the latter they would probably have, I dunno, basic presentation skills.

Metal Vendetta · Post by **Metal Vendetta** » Mon Jan 19, 2015 3:11 pm

That description doesn't apply to the person who wrote that blog.

Are they a warrior? Have they increased social justice? Or are they just a bit of a dipsh*t who writes bollocks?

In other news, Walky introduced the first (self-identifying) Trans*former recently - it's Howlback of all people. I'm sure there'll be another SJW along in a bit to tell us why this is a terrible thing.

Post by **Computron** » Mon Jan 19, 2015 6:56 pm

Metal Vendetta wrote:
That description doesn't apply to the person who wrote that blog.
Are they a warrior? Have they increased social justice? Or are they just a bit of a dipsh*t who writes bollocks?

I don't think it is either and to be fair you are setting up a bit of a Strawman here. I don't think the author identifies herself as a "warrior," I think she would just identify as a LGBT individual who is happy that MTMTE reflects the complexity of life in a way that is relevant to her. I really don't understand the hostility. Is she reducing your enjoyment of MTMTE?

Metal Vendetta · Post by **Metal Vendetta** » Mon Jan 19, 2015 7:59 pm

Computron wrote:I think she would just identify as a LGBT individual who is happy that MTMTE reflects the complexity of life in a way that is relevant to her.

Except that her "complexity of life" doesn't seem to be able to cope with the existence of cis-females. FFS.

Computron wrote:Is she reducing your enjoyment of MTMTE?

Given that a large part of my enjoyment of MTMTE is picking up on little details and wondering when or where they may become relevant in future issues - which happens ALL THE FRACKING TIME IN MTMTE - then having one of those little details removed for no reason other than this dipsh*t's insane ramblings does impact on my enjoyment of the series, yeah. For a start I collect singles, not trades; if I hadn't noticed Estriol being deleted from the wiki I'd still be wondering about it. It also reduces my respect for James Roberts as a writer in four ways:

he listens to this guff in the first place
he doesn't have the stones to stand by what he's written
he couldn't think of a way to address this in a future story that would make it non-"problematic" to the likes of our SJW friend
he's a massive frickin' hypocrite:

Rung wrote:Here's a little—whatever. A little thing. A disclosure. An insight. Revisionism—I've always been fascinated by it. By the idea of a writer going back and altering things. Make no mistake: an edit is a profoundly aggressive act. As Froid once said, we grieve for the murdered word. If you want to get the measure of an author, don't look at what they've left on the page.... look at what they've taken away.

Post by **snarl** » Tue Jan 20, 2015 9:34 am

As I understood it, he just deemed it uneccessary so binned it. That it might have been offensive and that he was cleaning it up seemed a secondary "bonus" objective.

Find it hard to understand that people are getting mad over him bowing to some kind of imaginary tranny hornets nest / championing it as some sort of moral victory, but what do I know.

But I really didn't get the impression that JR had bowed to a load of self important "look at me" blogger *****.

And If he did... you know what I'm not really that interested in this "Rewind and Chromedome are gay, Whirl is a bird" stuff, I tend to just back hand it away to the pit of my mind. I file as "bollocks I'm not particaularly interested in so imo doesn't exist" and everything tends to work better for me.

Metal Vendetta · Post by **Metal Vendetta** » Tue Jan 20, 2015 9:59 am

snarl wrote:But I really didn't get the impression that JR had bowed to a load of self important "look at me" blogger *****.

I'm sure it's just a coincidence that self important "look at me" blogger ***** blogged about this and then tweeted JR about it and then JR was like, oh yeah, I'll delete that.

TransFans.co.uk

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