MTMTE 15 Full Issue [Spoilers]

Auntie Slag · Post by **Auntie Slag** » Fri Mar 22, 2013 10:17 am

I really like the cover. I think its the most shocking & exciting TF cover ever, its ace. The only downside was I wanted to see how Magnus and Brawn lost their arms, did they pair up to take on Overlord etc... only to find that didn't really happen.

I tend to prefer more suggestive covers, like I would have imagined an almost clear cover with Pipes' hand at one corner above a pool of energon. Instead we get this. It's a bit... it's a bit full on, isn't it? [/Tailgate]

Post by **Best First** » Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:16 am

I don't really see the issue with the cover - yes it hints heavily at Magnus's demise but given what we have seen previously in terms of people dying it's far from certain based on the cover.

And if it is certain then there's just as much misdirection in the view of Drift who looks very dead.

I doubt anyone was sure it was coming until it actually happened, so unless they were it's hard to say the cover spoilt anything.

Just reread for about the 9th time - on ipad rather than phone this time, makes a big difference - actually really enjopyed flitting between the 2 page spread and the last few pages leading up to it and trying to piece things together.

And just can't explain how much i love the Ratchet and Drift scene.

Death's Head · Post by **Death's Head** » Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:46 am

I've said this over at the Archive, but it's amazing how bloody cool Ratchet is - really proving why he gets to sit at the top table with Prime, Prowl etc. Loved it.

Auntie Slag · Post by **Auntie Slag** » Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:59 am

It's got to count as Overlord's shortest reign of tyranny. He had three glorious years at Garrus 9, spent roughly 15 minutes on The Lost Light, and in all likelihood should chalk this down as another defeat of sorts.

Reminds me of Megatron in the 2007 live action movie. He crash landed on Earth, was frozen for donkey's years, then incapacitated by humans for another so many years... then finally has... well, probably about 15 minutes of fun up in Mission city before getting spaffed by the Allspark.

Seems like when you're a Decepticon big guy you get intense periods of nothing followed by a brief moment of brilliant action, and then nothing again.

Though at least Overlord gets to torture the absolute **** out of Rewind in space. If Chromedome lets the LL leave the area without a proper check then he is an unbelievable arse, considering what he knows of Overlord and the Ununtrium (though I bet he's so inconsolable they'll have moved on before he can pull himself together).

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Fri Mar 22, 2013 12:10 pm

We have seen previously the lost light can scan for life form.
So after chromedome blasts the escape pod, if OL was alive wouldn't they pick up a signal.?

U would check right?

Where was whirl in all this?

Sunyavadin · Post by **Sunyavadin** » Fri Mar 22, 2013 12:16 pm

I am pretty sure Overlord would have survived. The question is, as a friend pointed out to me just now - did he manage to keep Chromedome's hand and Rewind's head? Because if he did... Well, I am getting flashbacks to Hunter at the end of AHM...

Auntie Slag · Post by **Auntie Slag** » Fri Mar 22, 2013 12:32 pm

Maybe this is one of those situations where, because the entire ship's crew is in disarray the obvious checks and balances fall by the wayside, however briefly... but just long enough to give Overlord the window to float away out of scanner range.

You know, because Rodimus is the only one of LL high command left standing and he's probably doing a mixture of bravado, shock and crew tending at the mo'... just happy that most of them have survived what every other group who've ever encountered Overlord hasn't.

Mr_Tigg · Post by **Mr_Tigg** » Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:22 pm

Sorry chaps, but the more I've re-read the issue, the more the flaws have proven a growing distraction from the elements that work well (like Trepan's Trigger, the metabomb joke and Pipe's death).

The earlier Jaws analogy of implied-off-panel-violence isn't working for me. The thing with Jaws was, ok you didn't see the Shark, but the violence in the aftermath of each attack was very explicit in their brutality. In the opening scene, the girl swimming is tossed and tugged around violently like a piece of meat as the ocean turns red. Later, after the man at the beach is attacked, we see his severed leg sinking to the seabed.

What we see (or don't see) in MTMTE #15 (outside of Magnus getting gutted) is a few Autobot's looking a touch bruised, Drift with no legs and a battered Ratchet. Hardly irreparable damage by Transformer standards! Also from the fights themselves, the scuffle between Magnus / Overlord /F.Max is simply that - a schoolyard punch-up (I concede this could be more Milne's fault than JR's).

I'm with Jack - I want to see chunks getting torn out, arms used as clubs and perhaps another body or two! I'm not talking pages-on-pages of brutality, but maybe a montage of violence across a couple of pages - imagine the scene where Chromedome appears and, instead of switching to the Flashback, we see from Domey's POV each of the casualties across multiple panels. Something to emphasise the carnage.

I really don't see how this can cheapen Overlord's threat level - if you compare it with LSOTW, does seeing Overlord tear Guzzle in two, or rip Springer's face off make our antagonist seem a soft touch? No! In fact it escalates what a sick-psycho-bastard Overlord really is!

There's also the disconnect between the page splash at the start (where Overlord beats the crap out of most the autobots) to the latter stages of the battle. How did Cosmos get humbled? What happened to Brawl and Gears? The problem for me here is with the art - in the latter stages, there's no sense of the utter chaos implied in the splash panel. All we see is Overlord taking on one bot at a time, which undermines the believability that he's in some sort of battle royale. When Overlord grabs Rodimus, what happened to using Whirl as a club (as shown in the splash)? It creates logic holes and makes the battle seem tamer then it should be. When F.Max shoots Overlord what is everyone else doing? Just chilling off-panel? Why doesn't everyone else start firing at him to knock him down?

For me, it's similar to the criticism often levelled at RID, wherein we're suppose to believe that off-panel we're in some thriving new transformer city, while on-panel we just the seem the same bots / locations again and again and again. It dampens the credibility of the city concept, and it's the same problem here - the battle being fought off-panel makes it seem like a scuffle rather than a brutal pile-up.

Another major problem I'm having is Rewind's sacrifice. Why, oh why couldn't Fort Max have grabbed the sword? Or Chromedome kicked it in? Or Rewind and Chromedome work together to lift it out? I just don't see the need for Rewind to get into the chamber. It make's what should be an incredibly powerful, and emotional scene have shades of farce about it.

I'll also readily admit that IDW have shot themselves in the foot by building this up as an end game when it clearly isn't. Perhaps if they hadn't I wouldn't be banging on about this post-after-post. Either way I feel like the issue was missold to me, and I really hope the next one fills in the blanks via some sort of flashback sequence.

Post by **snarl** » Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:00 pm

Attack aftermath / expansion: We'll get more next issue - we're all reasonably sure on that aren't we?

This:

Mr_Tigg wrote:maybe a montage of violence across a couple of pages - imagine the scene where Chromedome appears and, instead of switching to the Flashback, we see from Domey's POV each of the casualties across multiple panels. Something to emphasise the carnage.

Is an idea I like. The converstaions in the lead up to the alarm were good though, and I bet integral as seeds for plot in future issues. The writer does not like to "waste" pages. A canrage montage would look good but would probably lose 2 / 3 pages worth of dialogue straight away.

Now, fingers crossed, something like your montage idea is in next issue, only, as it's being told in flashback, there's more opportunity to insert dialogue and you can then push the story forward as well.

The off panel stuff in this issue is nothing like the off panel stuff in RiD. I just can't be bothered to explain why, lets agree to disagree.

Ditto this ridiculous idea I've seen on other boards that there was any other way to remove the sword in the time available to remove it other than the one used.

Kick... KICK a sword out of the floor... Pull it out by it's blade? amazing!

just to check I'm not mental... how does everybody here cut bread? I've been taught to use the sharp part, and hold the handle... otherwise you cut yourself.

Look at the angle it's ******* stuck in the ground. You need an opposing force in the opposite direction to get it out, the only person who could get in place to do it was rewind...

I cannot understand how anybody with eyes plus a brain could come up with some of this ****

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:22 pm

I would have had OL grab rewind, and Rewind grab Chromedome through the door opening. Door cant close due to a sensor or something.
OL, whos still confused is starting to come round, and if he does will kill everyone.

Rewind and chromedome know they have one chance to kick OL off the ship, they exchange words, and rewind lets go of Chromedomes hand,(NOOOOOOoooooooooooooooo) door slams shut.

edit - but then CD hand wouldnt have been left in the escape pod...

Auntie Slag · Post by **Auntie Slag** » Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:59 pm

I've been checking out the TF Archive and Allspark responses and lots of people are saying "Oh Hasbro would never ok Magnus dying"... but is it such a big deal?

I don't doubt he'll survive, but Jazz died in the 2007 movie and yet he still keeps coming back in Animated, Fall of Cybertron and whatnot... and they still sell toys of him.

And Springer's dead in Regeneration One. So he can die in that but not in LSotW?

I'm happy for Magnus to live, the resulting story and how it will distinguish itself from Ironfist's predicament is much more interesting than simply having him dead.

But its interesting that from comic to comic, or movie to show to game, there's seemingly different rules laid down at different times as to who gets a Hasbro ordained sphere of protection placed over them. Seems a flighty logic. Didn't Broadside get crushed by Devastator in Regen One's most recent issue?

Does Regen One live in its own walled garden like Apple? I don't read it, but I like to flick through it at the shop to see if there's people hitting each other. Mostly it just seems to be people moping, Scooby Doo villainy and robots making Furman noises like "Fnnnt", and "Ghaaah" when they get a laser blast in the shoulder.

Mr_Tigg · Post by **Mr_Tigg** » Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:25 pm

snarl wrote:Attack aftermath / expansion: We'll get more next issue - we're all reasonably sure on that aren't we?

True - I think we will see further explanation next issue for sure.

Is an idea I like. The converstaions in the lead up to the alarm were good though, and I bet integral as seeds for plot in future issues. The writer does not like to "waste" pages. A canrage montage would look good but would probably lose 2 / 3 pages worth of dialogue straight away.

I get that, the point I'm trying to make is that in hindsight I think less is more. I know JR likes to reference past events, but in the context of this issue a couple of earlier flashback scenes aren't adding much that couldn't have been saved for a later issue imo (in particular Tailgate / Hoist).

The off panel stuff in this issue is nothing like the off panel stuff in RiD. I just can't be bothered to explain why, lets agree to disagree.

I agree we disagree on this. What I will say is the fact that RiD does it nearly every issue obviously makes it far more of a problem than it could ever be in MTMTE. If you take issue #15 of MTMTE as an issue by itself, then yes it I do see it as a problem, however if you look at it in the context of the series then clearly it's a minor complaint. RID in contrast has the problem throughout the series, so it's proven a greater failing for the series. It's a scale thing - small issue in MTMTE, massive issue in RID.

Ditto this ridiculous idea I've seen on other boards that there was any other way to remove the sword in the time available to remove it other than the one used.

Kick... KICK a sword out of the floor... Pull it out by it's blade? amazing!

just to check I'm not mental... how does everybody here cut bread? I've been taught to use the sharp part, and hold the handle... otherwise you cut yourself.

Look at the angle it's ******* stuck in the ground. You need an opposing force in the opposite direction to get it out, the only person who could get in place to do it was rewind...

I cannot understand how anybody with eyes plus a brain could come up with some of this ****

Maybe it's how Alex drew the scene (not quite visualising JRs script as he imagined it in his mind's eye), but judging from the art the sword doesn't even look like it's stuck in the ground, let alone jamming the door. I could've bought it if it was wedged between two parts of the closing door, but it looks like it's just lying there! Hence I don't think it implausible to move the sword by lifting, kicking it, etc.

Again this could've been rectified by making it clear that the sword was wedged in either between the door panels or showed a quick frame of Overlord ramming it in the ground to try and brace himself against F.Max's pressure - either way it looks like it's just been dropped on the floor. It's causing confusion amongst readers (hence people questioning it) when really it should be utterly explicit.

Maybe it's intentional and later on we're going to find out Rewind had a death wish of sorts, but unless we get that clarification I'll stand by what I originally said.

Post by **Best First** » Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:29 pm

Death's Head wrote:I've said this over at the Archive, but it's amazing how bloody cool Ratchet is - really proving why he gets to sit at the top table with Prime, Prowl etc. Loved it.

Yep.

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:37 pm

Q: Whats Tailgate building in Hoists workshop?

Mr_Tigg · Post by **Mr_Tigg** » Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:44 pm

I should perhaps reiterate that there are lots of things I do like about the issue and apologies for dragging the thread kicking and screaming into a self-indulgent moan!

MTMTE is still the mutt's nutts and JR is still doing for TFs what Jesus did to the old testament.

I actually disliked #13 a lot more than this issue. I think because of all the hype surrounding it I've got a bit more stoked up than usual.

Hound · Post by **Hound** » Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:05 pm

Best First wrote:
Death's Head wrote:I've said this over at the Archive, but it's amazing how bloody cool Ratchet is - really proving why he gets to sit at the top table with Prime, Prowl etc. Loved it.
Yep.

Thirded.

Jack Cade · Post by **Jack Cade** » Fri Mar 22, 2013 5:54 pm

Guys, the thing with the cover - it's not that we knew it would happen or that it happened exactly that way down to every detail. It's the fact that the image of Magnus being cored through the middle in the book consequently feels like an echo - stale where it could have been shocking. Honestly, did any of you react with: "Holy ****!" For me it was more like a feeling of deja vu. I remember how suddenly cold I felt inside when we saw Guzzle being ripped in half, and this didn't get anything close to that standard of nasty shock.

Other than that, I agree with Tigg's sentiments above. Lots to like, but JR feels so much more constrained than normal - like there should have been fight scenes *and* the dialogue but something had to go. I'd love it if the TPB added just a couple of extra pages for Tigg's action montage.

Post by **Kaylee** » Fri Mar 22, 2013 6:53 pm

Rereading it all again, I think Magnus' death was given away to divert attention from Rewind and Pipes. To make it more shocking.

Looking at the cast list on the last page, with three faces crossed out, I suspect we're looking at a hits list. The faces are going to get crossed out one by one.

Magnus is also going to move things before he dies. He knows something, and will spill it. That will move the plot in a new direction, possibly towards the DJD and Grimlock.

This is only the start...

Sunyavadin · Post by **Sunyavadin** » Sat Mar 23, 2013 4:32 am

Yes. Kick. It's called leverage. The blade of a sword is generally shorter than a leg. It also has those oh so convenient right angles that make pushing so much easier. If you've ever been to a gym you'll probably know that the amount of weight anyone of average build can shift with your legs is far greater than what you can with your arms. Add to that the fact that it is way easier not to try gripping it but instead to brace yourself against the floor and just extend a leg underneath it (try opening a beer bottle by pulling the cap vs using a bottle opener, tell me which is harder) and yes. Kick beats PUTTING YOURSELF IN A POSITION OF CERTAIN DEATH any day.

Sunyavadin · Post by **Sunyavadin** » Sat Mar 23, 2013 4:36 am

Impy- I suspect a new horn for cyclonus.

Tigg- couldn't agree more on most of your points about how it holds up less to repeated reading. Also with this many months of buildup it feels akin to if Time Wars had ended up being a two parter where they fight a bit, the rift swallows galvatron, and we get none of the awesome tension or big showdowns. I am guessing this may be partly due to roberts getting this story out of the way so the institute story can shine prior to shakeups from shockpoint (much like the underbase story cut off all of a sudden for the big climactic events of time wars to take place in issue 200)

Everyone giving Ratchet credit where it's due - damn straight.

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Sat Mar 23, 2013 10:08 am

Just like time wars and the marvel run in general , Magnus gos down easy...
It would have been nice to see Magnus hurt Overlord in some way, soften him up for fortress maximus or something... Is max tougher than Magnus?

Where was whirl in all this, we last see him at the LL gun controls, when chromedome gets there he's gone...
He's not involved fighting OL either... Odd.

Post by **Computron** » Sat Mar 23, 2013 1:11 pm

Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:Just like time wars and the marvel run in general , Magnus gos down easy...
It would have been nice to see Magnus hurt Overlord in some way, soften him up for fortress maximus or something... Is max tougher than Magnus?

Where was whirl in all this, we last see him at the LL gun controls, when chromedome gets there he's gone...
He's not involved fighting OL either... Odd.

Wasnt Whirl in alt mode being smashed into a wall by Overlord in the 2 page spread when Chromedome finally arrives on scene after escaping the tine dilation chamber?

Sunyavadin · Post by **Sunyavadin** » Sat Mar 23, 2013 2:07 pm

Everything with Fort Max and Magnus just felt like a bit of a cop out. We got a couple of panels of weak looking fighting. I guess that was just Alex falling a bit flat on conveying it. It happens. Scenes like that are where more pauses in the combat interspersed with dialogue spreading out the pacing can be good.

Not to knock Alex's art, I've been loving it all series, and I'm not even saying it's not great art in this one. But everyone has bad days, and if the worst that can be said about you is the complaints I have here, you're doing pretty well.

Yaya · Post by **Yaya** » Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:26 am

Since day one I've had a hankering for an Ultra Magnus kickass moment. Never really happened. I think I would have made Magnus the hero in this. Sort of an ultimate sacrifice moment that shuts up all his mockers and naysayers up. Didn't happen. Maybe it's still coming.

Auntie Slag · Post by **Auntie Slag** » Sun Mar 24, 2013 10:41 am

I'd have liked to have seen battle damage on Overlord in this issue. In LSotW he did look like he'd been in a battle, with lots of scarring and pock-marks, cracks in the bodywork etc. But apart from Atomiser's arrows in this issue (which disappear later on), and spitting mech fluid when Max punches him, Overlord looks pretty much MIB.

Death's Head · Post by **Death's Head** » Sun Mar 24, 2013 1:42 pm

I noticed in the letters page that there's a young lady who wants to get a better look at Whirl's helmet - the dirty, one-eyed monster!

Auntie Slag · Post by **Auntie Slag** » Mon Mar 25, 2013 3:13 pm

It's a bit odd that so many people love Whirl (myself included), when he is a complete scumbag who beat poor old Rotorstorm to a pulp many times. Yes he's had a crummy past etc. but still.

Also interesting (I found this in the TF Wiki), that people only remember Rung's name when he's not around, but have trouble naming him when he's in the room (apart from when they were telling him the Shadowplay story).

Death's Head · Post by **Death's Head** » Mon Mar 25, 2013 11:27 pm

I love Whirl. His comedic sociopathy is brilliant, and he gets all the best lines.

"If you want a helicopter you're going to have to ask me really nicely."

Rung is soooo a Knight of Cybertron. It's even mentioned jokingly back in Chaos Theory!

Post by **Best First** » Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:14 am

Just to counter the people saying it gets worse on repeat reading - i feel the opposite.

There's so much goodness in there, from Ratchet to the meta bomb to the symmetry of the asteroid bombardment to the myriad possibilities the “ending” presents.

Its not perfect, but to me it’s still an absolute joy.

Hound · Post by **Hound** » Tue Mar 26, 2013 12:19 pm

Best First wrote:Just to counter the people saying it gets worse on repeat reading - i feel the opposite.

There's so much goodness in there, from Ratchet to the meta bomb to the symmetry of the asteroid bombardment to the myriad possibilities the “ending” presents.

Its not perfect, but to me it’s still an absolute joy.

Agreed