MTMTE 15 Full Issue [Spoilers]

Mr_Tigg · Post by **Mr_Tigg** » Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:28 pm

Yeh you're right - they've got it the wrong way round!

Post by **Computron** » Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:31 pm

So many awesome tidbits in this story that I don't even know where to begin.

By far the biggest impacts on me were:

Pipes' death. (Poor lil' guy, but he dies a true Autobot's death, alerting everyone else before his spark is gone)

Ultra Magnus getting punked. The Lost Light needs him around. He's the foil to so many of the 'Bots on the ship. As much as it risks believability, I hope he survives. If anything this moment would be a real point of character development for him.

Brainstorm and the meta bomb. Even in epic issues having that laugh out loud moment is so worth it. Amongst many breakout characters in MTMTE, Brainstorm is nothing short of brilliant.

Chromedome and Rewind. I can't explain it, but two asexual robots have demonstrated true love better than 99% of movies, comics and literature out there. Hound is right. What they have is truly beautiful and, well, I really hope Rewind is alright.

I'm gonna have to reread it again now that my heart isn't racing as to who dies.

Jack Cade · Post by **Jack Cade** » Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:45 pm

Afraid to say I'm on the 'anticlimactic' boat.

When exactly does all the action happen? Somewhere between two pages, Cosmos, Brawn and Gears get crunched up, but we don't get any sense of it happening. One moment Overlord's dropping Magnus, and then within a few panels, Cosmos is already down as Rodimus leaps into the enemy's clutches like a buffoon.

Magnus getting gutted would be fine ... if it wasn't exactly what happens on the cover, but more hastily drawn.

Fort Max getting his revenge - great, except it feels restrained. Really wanted to see him tearing chunks off Overlord. Not only does Overlord not do enough in the way of carnage - the bots fighting him don't seem to bring much to the fight either. Sure, he's invulnerable, but how about a few more holes in his armour or an Impactor 'harpoon in the eye' moment?

Rewind's death - a little too deus ex. Convenient door-stuck business. Be better if all three of them had had to get out of the chamber in time, and Rewind, realising that they wouldn't have time to shut the door behind them, shuts it from his side.

Highlight moments - Pipes' death, Ratchet's shot, the clever twist on 'Til all are one', which does give Chromedome a little respect back.

Jack Cade · Post by **Jack Cade** » Wed Mar 20, 2013 8:25 pm

Re the pacing, does anyone think the issue could have been better arranged like so?

* Start with the four short scenes that lead up to the alarm going off - Brainstorm, Rewind, Swerve; Perceptor and Rodimus; Rung and Fort Max; Tailgate and co. Something has happened, but we don't know what.

* Flash forward to Chromedome rushing to the bridge to blow up the pod, after which we get the shot of him absolutely distraught. We know this is further on in time and that something bad has happened to Rewind. We've got the before and after now, and are desperate to know what goes on in between.

* Now flash back to Ratchet outside the Medibay, right after the alarm. OK, here the full picture starts to unfold. We get the full narrative up to First Aid diagnosing Magnus. The first part of the story's meat.

* Now comes page 1, and everything that happens from Chomedome's perspective, right up until Rewind shuts himself in. This is Chromedome's story essentially, told without the big gap in the middle as it's currently arranged, leading right up to the moment he has to make that fateful decision.

* Well, that's the whole thing done then, isn't it? Except one little mystery remains - who set off the alarm? We end with the flashback to Blaster, Whirl and Pipes, for a gut-wrenching sting in the tail/tale.

Post by **Kaylee** » Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:13 pm

This issue was incredible for me <3

*smokes cigarette*

Hound · Post by **Hound** » Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:19 pm

So there should be some spare hands for Whirl now at least.

bumblemusprime · Post by **bumblemusprime** » Wed Mar 20, 2013 11:35 pm

Love love love at first read.

There's a part of me that likes to just take or leave a story, flaws and all. Pacing is rough and JC may be on to something. But I read this as one with #14, which I had missed last month, so the buildup and execution were of a piece.

Death's Head · Post by **Death's Head** » Thu Mar 21, 2013 12:26 am

The great thing about it is that each issue is packed with stuff and works brilliantly by itself, but like all great showmen he leaves you wanting more, justifying the serial medium. It'll make for one hell of a re-read by the time we get up to about thirty issues - if you read them all in a row I reckon you'd explode!

Yaya · Post by **Yaya** » Thu Mar 21, 2013 4:29 am

Magnus, noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

Super issue, once again. Wouldn't say it was the best so far, but certainly up there. Much of what happened was expected and some clever fans figured it out before, but as Snarlz says, so what? So many freakin things this whole series nobody could see coming, but when there are a few things we did forsee, we complain about it?? Who didn't want to see Fort Max get a little revenge, after all?

The whole Chromedome/Rewind thing was nice and all, but I couldn't help but get flashbacks of that episode of Lost, the "not Penny's boat" one where Charlie gets stuck in that sub thing and puts his hand on the glass. That was powerful, and for some reason, because I'd seen something like that before, this incident didn't have the impact it would have had I never seen that. Strange. Still, it was well done and I have no complaints. Seriously doubt Rewind is dead. Anybody see a body? Me neither. He ain't dead and, of course, neither is Overlord.

Magnus on the other hand.....noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!

My favorite moment (and death) was surprisingly the Pipes one. Fantastic start to the issue. Nice how JR got that little message to Hubcap in there. I'm sure, many, many issues down the road, we'll get to see Hubcap's response.

One thing I notice about JR and that's that he really doesn't like wasting page space on action much, at least in the way we have come to expect with TF. He loves interaction, character development, etc, but action in the sense of old TF comics fight scenes, I don't think that does it for him. You get the sense if he's given a page, he loathes using it in an "insert fight scene here" kind of way. I think he prefers his fights off panel, or maybe just one or two panels, hence the scantiness of the big fight here. To be honest, I think that's fine most of the time (and part of the reason why JR's stuff is so special), but there are moments, like in this case, where that's a mistake. Every once in a while, you just have to lay that action out there for all to see, page after page of it, because that's really what got us all into TF in the first place. It's a small niggle really, because to complain about what we're getting now in MTMTE would basically solidify the perception many already have regarding TF comic fans, that we just love to complain for the sake of complaining.

No complaints here. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

Unless what's broke is Ultra Magnus. Then you fix it.

Post by **Best First** » Thu Mar 21, 2013 8:01 am

Yaya wrote: No complaints here. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

Unless what's broke is Ultra Magnus. Then you fix it.

Boom.

I don't think this issue was perfect, but i seriously doubt anyone posting here could do a better job, and lets face it this is the first TF series in a long long time where that has been the case.

Post by **snarl** » Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:04 am

JR seems to do his fights quick and brutal, which ,realistically, is what you might well expect when massive ******* war machines decide they want to [composite word including 'f*ck'] each other up.

Reading Eugenesis last week really rams this home - many deaths. Most of them quick and brutal.

Well, I say deaths, but these things are very hard to completely put down.

IMO, it'd be better described as severe, stasis inducing injury.

I think it's a pretty realistic way of dealing with it, going by what we know about TF mechanics.

Death's Head · Post by **Death's Head** » Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:13 am

There's something about TF fans (and Doctor Who fans, funnily enough) and death, as if it's required to raise the stakes. Of course countless dramas have been written over the centuries in which the stakes are high but death is either rare, or doesn't come up at all.

Personally, I'm not too bothered. In fact I'd rather have a few well-portrayed deaths (poor Pipes!) in which the robot in question has at least had the chance to shine, than a Furman-esque massacre in which a tonne of potentially-interesting characters are vapourised.

Hound · Post by **Hound** » Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:24 am

Death's Head wrote:There's something about TF fans (and Doctor Who fans, funnily enough) and death, as if it's required to raise the stakes. Of course countless dramas have been written over the centuries in which the stakes are high but death is either rare, or doesn't come up at all.

Personally, I'm not too bothered. In fact I'd rather have a few well-portrayed deaths (poor Pipes!) in which the robot in question has at least had the chance to shine, than a Furman-esque massacre in which a tonne of potentially-interesting characters are vapourised.

This. It's the same with marvel comic events. It's not deemed epic enough unless there is a big character death at the end.

Sunyavadin · Post by **Sunyavadin** » Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:25 am

Yaya wrote: No complaints here. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

Unless what's broke is Ultra Magnus. Then you fix it.

Time for them to find some friendly Junkions? Or did they all die when they joined Galvatron's army in Heart of Darkness?

Yaya · Post by **Yaya** » Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:00 pm

Sunyavadin wrote:Time for them to find some friendly Junkions? Or did they all die when they joined Galvatron's army in Heart of Darkness?

The only 'heart of darkness' I'm willing to acknowledge is the one still ticking in Overlords charred chasis.

don't think this issue was perfect, but i seriously doubt anyone posting here could do a better job, and lets face it this is the first TF series in a long long time where that has been the case.

I would go even further to say that I don't think I've read any comic series written by anybody where the first 15 issues were all either good or better. That's pretty darn impressive when you think about it. Not only is it the case that none of us here could write a better comic, but it's even more rare that a TF comic stands out amongst all comics.

Mr_Tigg · Post by **Mr_Tigg** » Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:19 pm

Yaya wrote:Magnus, noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!
Super issue, once again. Wouldn't say it was the best so far, but certainly up there. Much of what happened was expected and some clever fans figured it out before, but as Snarlz says, so what? So many freakin things this whole series nobody could see coming, but when there are a few things we did forsee, we complain about it?? Who didn't want to see Fort Max get a little revenge, after all?

Hmmm not sure if this is directed at me, but I've already pointed out my complaints weren't with the predictability of the issue but the execution.

One thing I notice about JR and that's that he really doesn't like wasting page space on action much, at least in the way we have come to expect with TF. He loves interaction, character development, etc, but action in the sense of old TF comics fight scenes, I don't think that does it for him. You get the sense if he's given a page, he loathes using it in an "insert fight scene here" kind of way. I think he prefers his fights off panel, or maybe just one or two panels, hence the scantiness of the big fight here. To be honest, I think that's fine most of the time (and part of the reason why JR's stuff is so special), but there are moments, like in this case, where that's a mistake. Every once in a while, you just have to lay that action out there for all to see, page after page of it, because that's really what got us all into TF in the first place. It's a small niggle really, because to complain about what we're getting now in MTMTE would basically solidify the perception many already have regarding TF comic fans, that we just love to complain for the sake of complaining.

I think you've hit the nail on the head here with regards to Jame's writing style. If you examine previous issues, the only glaring weakness I can pick out is a lack of satisfactory action sequences. A great example is the battle between DJD and the Scavengers, which felt a little underwhelming, or the climax to Shadowplay where OP bursts in to save the day (again the action seemed rushed). It lacks that 'wrecking ball' element that I crave in my comic-book battles - it's almost as if JR is afraid to give a fight 'room to breath'.

A good yardstick is the battle between OP and Megs way, way back in Escalation - where I think Furman gets the balance spot on, dedicated plenty of panel-time to the duel. Another good example is LSOTW where the fights highlight the brutality and punishment I love to see dished out to TFs (I imagine this may have been Roche's influence, judging on JR's aforementioned weakness).

I also see manga artists as a good way to draw a contrast to JR's style. My fave is probably Hiroaki Samura who writes / illustrates 'Blade of the Immortal'. Like most manga artists he absolutely excels at creating incredible fight scenes between characters, that drag out for whole volumes. The problem is that often becomes the point of the manga - fight scenes - so the writing is often merely a way of getting the reader from Fight A to Fight B. For that reason the writing is usually serviceable at best, with plenty of faults. JR is at the opposite side of the spectrum - the dialogue, character moments, etc - it's all exquisitely written, but the flipside is the action tends to suffer.

Regarding this whole 'TF comic fans love to complain' - sorry but I don't buy it. The reality is the internet polarises opinion and provides a platform for people to voice those opinions no matter how harsh they may seem. It's not some exclusive secret complaints club for TF fans - if you visit most public forums you will see the same behaviour. I regularly frequent a soccer / football forum, and believe me - despite football being a more socially acceptable activity over here in England - you still see exactly the same amount of negativity, extreme opinions and whiney comments (plus all the happy clappy **** too). It's simply the culture of internet forums.

I'm also of the opinion that criticism should be given where it is due as much as credit. MTMTE has been a brilliant series so far, but this issue was one of the most important chapters (a climax point for several story threads) and I feel slightly irked that it didn't meet the standards I've come to expect from JR.

Post by **snarl** » Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:00 pm

I agree with your point about TF fans not having a monopoly on complaining. And I share your view on a lot of football fans being... *****, basically.

However, what I will say, and this is just a personal opinion... The TF comic buying fraternity is fairly small. It's niche. For the relatively small amount of people that are into TF comics, there doesn't half seem to be a lot of truly thick as **** twats making up the numbers.

For the record, I don't think anybody on this board falls into that category. You are all righteous dudes.

I think DH nails this - we crave more Overlord violence... If I were a betting man, I think we'll get more next issue as a flashback. I think the reason being is that if the whole ruck got stretched over two issues, you run into pacing and credibility problems. Some people are looking at it as a bad thing that they have to wait for it, some people are looking at it as a good thing.

For me, I like that JR's gradually upping the stakes. What did they say about Jaws? Works so well because it isn't in your face from the first minute - It requires you to think about what's going on under the water, and the human brain is ******* ace at thinking up terrible stuff. What terrible stuff do we reckon happened off panel that has been hinted at then?

I would have loved (and actually did expect) all out gratuitous violence too, but looking at what we have, considering the whys and wherefores, I do not in any way feel short changed.

Another parallel - When Time Wars came out, I ******* loved it. It was so cool, carnage, amazing deaths etc. Re-reading, it was not as good as the top layer of glossy deaths initially made me think... Food for thought.

I've talked about this comic more than any I've ever read, with ease and I'm probably boring some of you!

Post by **Computron** » Thu Mar 21, 2013 4:22 pm

snarl wrote:
I've talked about this comic more than any I've ever read, with ease and I'm probably boring some of you!

Yea but it's talk (Generally speaking, not you specifically) that centers around enjoyment of the story instead of our usual diet of "well that TF comic sucked...again." I have no problem discussing MTMTE at length.

I don't think anyone mentioned it, but regarding the last few pages, where Roberts has his cast of characters and the brief bio about each of them, seeing those red X's over Pipes, UM and Rewind really hit home.

Now admittedly, this is a comic book and resurrections are par for the course, and I do expect Rewind back at some point given the ambiguity of his death (in comic terms at least) and the hanging plot thread of his previous quest to find his past Transformer pal, and whatever Chromedome did to his brain, but it still kinda stung.

In any case I really hope the DJD takes Overlord apart piece by piece.

Post by **Best First** » Thu Mar 21, 2013 4:25 pm

Does anyone think the spiel for the Hoist spotlight made it sound like the DJD featured?

Wonder how that fits in.

Post by **snarl** » Thu Mar 21, 2013 4:40 pm

I had not seen that. ******* May?! Bollocks.

Auntie Slag · Post by **Auntie Slag** » Thu Mar 21, 2013 6:12 pm

Ambulon's pretty dashing, flying one of those Skydart things into Overlord's back and leaping off like a superhero. That's the kind of thing I'd expect Skids to do.

I mean, its cool, just an odd choice of a character to do that. But all of these people do things for a reason in MTMTE. Just like I'm wondering why there's no evidence of Atomiser bar his arrows, suggesting we might find him smeared into the wall during the clean-up next issue.

Anyone think Rung is a Knight of Cybertron? Just because every once in a while he says something that's rather wooly like "I've learned to forgive everything", "Its Rung... forever" or Rewind's description of him as a universal constant that no-one really remembers, like the way the Matrix Map resists memorisation?

I really like Rodimus. They keep making him out to be the hot-headed dude with a rather sideways take on leadership (the neat idea taking out the Sparkeater, for instance), but he suspected the Matrix Map is copy protected? I suppose that's another arc, is this the first time Rodimus has voiced these suspicions?

One other thing; Ore getting mashed in the quantum generators in the second issue... He was kind of mashed into it mid-air... like he'd been lifted and pushed into it. Shirley the only way he could've done that himself is if he jumped up and backwards into the generator?

Shanti418 · Post by **Shanti418** » Thu Mar 21, 2013 9:18 pm

I would have like to see a bit higher death count. I was totally prepared to see Ratchet bite it with First Aid and Ambulon being around and being much more interesting and unexplored characters.

And I do agree with the previous posters who say that a weak spot of JR's is action sequences. But I ultimately go with the posters that dissent from that view because as has been said, Overlord is too much of a force of nature to have him in a prolonged fight that doesn't end with everyone dead. You have Overlord, you have to have Overlord lose because Overlord winning means everyone is dead. But with the way he's been set up, only Fort Max, Magnus and possibly Drift can even make him sweat a drop of oil. So you really can't prolong the fight. It's got to have a quick pace. Everyone shows up, fights, loses. UM shows up, fights, loses, FM shows up, fights, wins. Even then, you have to have the "All Are One" trigger to even make that realistic in the context of a Phase Sixer.

Don't get me wrong, I would have loved to see more fight and I certainly expected more fight going in, but you can't have "more fight" without cheapening the threat of Overlord.

I don't think Magnus is coming back, but yeah, Overlord totally saved Rewind and is going to use him to get revenge on Chromedome.

Auntie Slag · Post by **Auntie Slag** » Thu Mar 21, 2013 9:35 pm

I reckon there'll be more fight, just in flashback (I think Snarl mentioned this possibility earlier).

I'd lap it up, from the first time I read 'Raiders of the Last Ark' it was clear we didn't get to see most of the battles that were going on, just a couple of spotlight ones before Auntie kicked in.

Seeing how Brawn, Hound and co managed to survive rather than getting utterly killed is interesting enough for me. You could argue there's perhaps 10-15 minutes of massacring we haven't seen (he said it would take Chromedome the equivalent of 30 minutes to get out of the slow cell, right?).

I always felt robbed that we didn't get to see much of what happend when Impactor and Springer took on Overlord. The Harpoon to the eye was golden, but then it just skipped to the end. To see just the tiniest extra snapshot of what went on via Overlord's memories was pretty cool I thought, even if its reason for being there was the Chromedome memory-interface backdrop. I'm sure James will be able to work in a nifty reason to see snapshots of the massacre as other characters on The Lost Light take their turn as main players, like Highbrow, Blaster or... ooh Mainframe again? (thinking back to Eugenesis).

Hound · Post by **Hound** » Thu Mar 21, 2013 9:44 pm

So if there are 3 'spare' slots on the main roster, who do you think will fill them?

My money is on Perceptor as Roberts has previously said he would like to use him more. Perhaps Blaster.

Post by **snarl** » Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:26 pm

Shanti418 wrote: Don't get me wrong, I would have loved to see more fight and I certainly expected more fight going in, but you can't have "more fight" without cheapening the threat of Overlord.

That's basically what I thought. At first I was a bit... I want more killing! Then I thought about it and reached the above conclusion.

New cast:

I reckon Eugen faves Perceptor and Mainframe too. I Mainframe on the LL?

Galvatron...? Would absolutely love to see JR Galvatron somehow involved.

Fight flashbacks via people with pts talking to Rung?

Auntie Slag · Post by **Auntie Slag** » Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:31 pm

I think Mainframe's there. Rodimus asked him for a status report in the first issue when they quantum jumped.

So Issue 16 will be the final issue in this... 16 issue arc? Then it's on to Grange Hill: The Second Season as it were?

I don't want new first years, I was happy with Tucker and Pongo.

Unless Mainframe is the new Kendal.

kenDAAAALLLL!

Hound · Post by **Hound** » Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:57 pm

Mainframe is there

http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Lost_Light

Yaya · Post by **Yaya** » Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:30 am

Jack Cade wrote: Magnus getting gutted would be fine ... if it wasn't exactly what happens on the cover, but more hastily drawn.

If I have one major gripe, it's exactly this. Why, oh why, would you reveal this jaw-dropping moment on the cover?

Reminds me back when we saw the Phantom Menace preview for the first time. I remember thinking when Darth Maul 'unsheathed' his lightsaber and, GASP, it was double-sided, how cool a moment would that have been during the movie for SW fans had they never revealed that weapon in the preview and saved it for the movie itself, a weapon never seen before? SW fans would have fallen out of their seats. This reminds me of that.

Yaya · Post by **Yaya** » Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:00 am

snarl wrote: For me, I like that JR's gradually upping the stakes. What did they say about Jaws? Works so well because it isn't in your face from the first minute - It requires you to think about what's going on under the water, and the human brain is ******* ace at thinking up terrible stuff. What terrible stuff do we reckon happened off panel that has been hinted at then?

Nice analogy.

I would have loved (and actually did expect) all out gratuitous violence too, but looking at what we have, considering the whys and wherefores, I do not in any way feel short changed.

I'm with you on this. Though it should have given us more fight exposure and I can see where others feel somewhat slighted by this, I'll take this comic just as it is, thank you very much.

Anyone think Rung is a Knight of Cybertron? Just because every once in a while he says something that's rather wooly like "I've learned to forgive everything", "Its Rung... forever" or Rewind's description of him as a universal constant that no-one really remembers, like the way the Matrix Map resists memorisation?

Huh. That's an interesting thought. And with JR, if an interesting thought comes to mind, it's probably true.

Yea but it's talk (Generally speaking, not you specifically) that centers around enjoyment of the story instead of our usual diet of "well that TF comic sucked...again."

Seems like ages since we've had something so overwhelmingly positive in the writing department to talk about, hasn't it? MTMTE saved TF comics for me.

See, the genius of JR is that he builds up these characters with varying personalities and then expertly pairs them up with other characters that are very different, then places them in unusual circumstances to give us something we've never seen before. Case in point. Rewind and Overlord. From the looks of it, JR has now introduced a most bizarre companionship with these two that is sure to entertain for issues to come. That's what good writers do.

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:49 am

That was awesome!
Ok, so why show Magnus getting gutted on the cover, to sell more issues? - he's not dead of course...
Question what's tailgate building in hoists workshop?

I have an overlord issue, whilst his skeleton might be near indestructible, that doesn't make him strong or fast. Tough he may be but id wager you could simply hold him down... Stick him stocks and dismantle him...