Can somebody explain this to me? Re: everything?

Professor Smooth · Post by **Professor Smooth** » Fri May 04, 2012 4:06 pm

I've been a Transformers fan since shortly after the franchise started. At first I liked the toys. Then I liked the (original) cartoon. Once that ended, I became a fan again with Beast Wars and have stuck with the series ever since.

But I didn't stick with the franchise out of some sense of loyalty. I stuck with it because I enjoyed it.

Rather long interlude in italics:

Beast Wars Season 1? Thought the toon was fun. Didn't care for (or buy) the figures.

Season 2? Same deal. LOVED the cartoon. Didn't care for many of the figures.

Season 3? Toon was AMAZING. Got me to buy Optimal Optimus and TM 2 Megatron. Kind of my hook back into collecting.

Beast Machines? Didn't care for the show at first, but grew to enjoy it. Love that it kind of closed the book on G1, so to speak. Toys weren't my thing, but I did buy a bunch of the Vehicons.

RiD: Loved. Dug the show and all its campy fun. Dug the original Japanese version of the show (that I bought on VHS from the gent I still do business with.) It was the first and only series that I collected to 100% completion.

Armada: Didn't care for the show. Thought the toys were enough fun to keep buying (if not to 100% because **** you K-Mart Gold Optimus and Jetfire two-pack. ). But the comic? Total fun. Every month.

Energon? TV show? Not my thing. Toys? Only a few interested me. Comic? Great, up until it was cancelled? Video game? (based on Armada) tons of fun!

Cybertron? TV show wasn't something I cared to watch. Some of the toys were well worth picking up (Prime, Megs, Screamer, etc)

Movie? Eight bucks for two hours of PG-13 CGI robot fighting? Why not? Didn't really want the toys, but the movie was fun enough to keep me entertained for a few hours. Extras on the disc justified the price of the disc.

Animated? Fan-wank done right. Loved the show. Collected the figures for awhile. Sold off most of the non-essentials later.

Sequel? Not as much fun as the first, but the HIGHS well outweighed he lows. Prime uprooting a tree and using it like a baseball bat on Megatron? Well worth my $20 (Japanese movie ticket prices are absurd.) Gave up RotF Leader Optimus Prime. Still one of the best TF figures of all time.

DotM: Better than RotF. Amazing in 3-D. Some really nice figures. Dug that the novel had a different ending than the movie version.

Prime: It's Beast Wars again. Which is great for kids who didn't see Beast Wars the first time. I dig the toys, but aren't so into them that I'm going to bother with more than maybe Optimus (and Megatron?) Not a slight against the toys. I'm just getting to a point in my life where toys aren't really that important to interior design.

Oh, then there's IDW:

LOVED the Simon Furman stuff. Greatly enjoyed (most of) All Hail Megatron. Kind of faded out during the ongoing. Can't say enough good things about LSotW. Looking forward to the trades of the current series.

But when I go to other message boards (other than here) I find people who legit do not seem to enjoy Transformers. And, in fact, haven't done so in a long while. They hate the movies, or the cartoons, or the toys. And they never seem to say anything good about the franchise.

And it BAFFLES me. Maybe it's just because I'm an old fart, but I can't get my mind around it. Why would you continue to watch a cartoon show (aimed at people decades younger than you) if you weren't enjoying it? Why would you continue bothering with toys (same deal) if you didn't like them? Why are you paying money to see movies that you don't like?

I just don't get it. For everybody who doesn't work jobs directly related to the Transformers brand, it's just a hobby, no? So if you wind up spending more time hating your hobby than you do enjoying it, shouldn't you maybe think about looking into another hobby?

I saw somebody complaining about Rescue Bots recently. Rescue Bots is, if I understand it correctly, and Transformers cartoon aimed at younger children. And I thought, "younger children...as opposed to what?" Transformers is a property aimed at kids. Yeah, adults can enjoy it...and do. But it's not aimed at us. Are there really that many people who became Transformers fans after the age of 18? Or in our 20's...or 30's?

I enjoy Transformers because I watched it as a kid. And watching it now kind of brings me back to that time. Any faults I'm usually more than happy to overlook (at least until something better comes along.) And if the "problems" aren't something I'd have caught as a kid, I don't even bother to take issue with it.

So my question, at long last, is this: If people who consider themselves Transformers fans, but (loudly and publicly) disliked the movies, recent cartoons, comic books, and toys...why are they still devoting time to the franchise?

DJ_Convoy · Post by **DJ_Convoy** » Fri May 04, 2012 8:38 pm

Well, I hate the movies. But I don't go on about it.

Prof, you and I are fairly close on our tastes (with some differences here and there- only watched the first movie and would never watch another- haven't really liked any TV show since Beast Wars- the comics have only just recently been good again, etc.). I totally cop to being old. And I also cop to not liking a lot of the modern output, altho' Rescue Bots holds no more existential dread for me than the Playskool GoBots line did. Prime... everyone in the world but me seems to dig, so I'm thinking about giving it another shot. Comics are good again, mostly... toys are all over the place int erms of what I like (mostly only interested in third party lately). So, on the surface, it appears that modern TFs are not firing on all cylinders for me.

Where I differ is that there's still stuff that I like in most of the franchises*, and, most importantly, G1 is so vast that there's always stuff to go back and get, be it toys, merch, comics or whatever.

A few months back, I posted a topic here something along the lines of "Do you still like Transformers?" largely because I was at an absolute nadir for TF stuff. No good comics, the movies, wasn't into Animated, only movie toys about, etc. I'm probably always going to like Transformers to some extent; it means a lot to me, and has since 1985 or so. I think the difference between me and the usual mouth-breathing everything new hater is the ability to think critically; and the ability to realize that not every bit of Transformers has to cater to me, as long as SOME of it does.

*And, if there isn't, I can generally safely ignore it

Brendocon · Post by **Brendocon** » Fri May 04, 2012 9:14 pm

There are too many people on the internet who want to be the first to say how awful something is. They forget how to do that thing where they enjoy something, and if it's not enjoyable just shrug it off and move on.

Message boards and websites normalise marginal behaviour. Ie you can get sucked in to a little corner of a created world where all your batshit insane thoughts get validated by people who agree with them; as the only people you discuss them with are those who are of the same mindset. Therefore it's easy to forget that a tv show is just a tv show, that a film is just a film, that a toy is just a toy. In a similar way to how when you're a kid and the only thing you talk about is X, that's the most important thing in the world and nothing else matters. But at least for our lunatics it's a toyline/cartoon/comic rather than right-wing neo-nazi polemic about immigrant muslim conspiracies that make you think it's ok to go on a killing spree.

Where was I?

Oh yeah. The internet regresses people to that. Or can do to some people anyway. Perspective goes out of the window... and they fixate. And for some reason they fixate on the bad. And take it personally. Because nobody involved in the creation of it gets exactly how important all this is to them and the other people they spend all day talking to about it.

They've forgotten that they're the audience, and think that they're the sole target for all of it and that it should be tailored precisely to their whims and desires. So get angry. And hostile. So hate everything.

I'm not really sure where I'm going with this. Basically I think I'm suggesting that people need to lighten the [composite word including 'f*ck'] up and spend more time on different sites, expand their horizons, get out a bit more and experience other stuff.

Which is rich coming from me, but [composite word including 'f*ck'] it.

... but yeah, I agree 100% with the good Professor's question (ha, go back in time and tell that to the me from 10 years ago). But I think the above has a lot to do with the general reactions from people... ie why there's so much hate. And also why people stick around... it's because for a lot of them the hobby is the focal point of their lives...

They've been doing it so long that they haven't got anything else. And, because of that, it owes them something better?

I don't know. And I've probably just offended somebody reading this, but I'm not overly bothered. Because I stopped taking all this seriously several years back when some personal stuff really put everything in my life in a new perspective.

I can't remember the last TF comic I read was, or the last toy I bought. I've got the first season of Prime on DVD but haven't watched it yet. Basically the only reason I'm online right now is because booze and hookers are too expensive and there's nothing decent on tv.

DJ_Convoy · Post by **DJ_Convoy** » Fri May 04, 2012 10:59 pm

HAAAAATE YOUUUUUUUUU *offended*

Jack Cade · Post by **Jack Cade** » Fri May 04, 2012 11:18 pm

One word: community.

United in love or united in hate, people like to belong.

inflatable dalek · Post by **inflatable dalek** » Sat May 05, 2012 4:41 am

I think Smooth shows some excellent taste there, even if I think the early IDW stuff suffers badly in retrospect because of all the build up being scuppered by a badly rushed conclusion. Still got a lot of love for Escalation though, things seemed to be really working at that point in a way it never really did again till the start of this year.

Only seen the first err... seven Prime episodes yet, but thought the edited together pilot was an excellent TV Movie, and though the next couple are a bit more kiddified they're still good fun on those terms (and apparently this changes as the season goes on). Plus, Scraplets!

Generally I think the Transformers scene is actually pretty good at the moment, love them or hate them the films have given the franchise as a whole a huge kick up the arse and the stuff that's worked (even if it's not particularly for me like Rescue Bots) over the last five years far outweighs the bad, and compared to the Unicron trilogy shenanigans we were getting immediately before the improvement is huge.

Hell, even the comics seem to have turned a corner. Though I put that down more to the departure of Andy Schmidt. The comics he wrote were harmless fun but every editing decision he made was borderline incompetent, from barely even being able to make sure speech bubbles were pointing at the right characters through forgeting major plot points I don't think there was anything he could have got wrong he didn't, regularly.

Ironically the weakest stuff has tended to be the Movie tie ins, due to them frequently being produced by people who clearly don't like the films very much and would much rather be going G1. Which is fair enough, but perhaps those people shouldn't be getting those gigs?

Oh yeah. The internet regresses people to that. Or can do to some people anyway. Perspective goes out of the window... and they fixate. And for some reason they fixate on the bad. And take it personally. Because nobody involved in the creation of it gets exactly how important all this is to them and the other people they spend all day talking to about it.

They've forgotten that they're the audience, and think that they're the sole target for all of it and that it should be tailored precisely to their whims and desires. So get angry. And hostile. So hate everything.

Though creators can be just as bad for buying into the importance of opinions on the internet as the people giving them. One of IDW's big problems were their attempts- starting as early as Stormbringer and the way it was promoted, not for what's in it, but for not being Infiltraion ("There are robots in it this time! No humans!", that was arguably the first sign things were going to go very wrong)- to try and please everyone all of the time by chopping and changing their stories according to the loudest fan complaints.

Now, even allowing for the fact that the comics, unlike the aimed at as many people as possible films and cartoons, are pretty much just brought by fans so message boards are likely to give a more representative feeling of what readers are thinking, that's still an impossible task. People who didn't like the way AHM didn't seem to fit in smoothly with the Furman stuff weren't going to be placated by the late in the day slightly forced feeling inclusion of Huntsreaker, all it did was piss off those who liked the fresh feeling start and confuse any new readers.

I think Bay actually has the healthiest work attitude out of anyone involved in the franchise, he does what he does and if people like it, great, if they don't, he's not bothered. He's just having fun doing it.

Otherwise, I generally think a healthy distance between creators and fans is actually best for both parties. It avoids getting sucked into ultimately pointless arguments and the brown nosing sycophants. Put the work out there and let it stand or fall on its own.

Hubcap · Post by **Hubcap** » Sat May 05, 2012 3:09 pm

I haven't given the cartoons (or just TV in general) much attention in years and years. Not that I think it's bad, I just can't really be bothered fitting it into my day. I'd rather read a book or comic, or watch DVDs. I'll watch Prime, but on DVD where I can watch it when I feel like it. As for other series: I liked BW and RiD but haven't had much interest in anything else.

As for the movies: They're not great, but I'm ok with that. Doesn't mean I can't watch them, I just don't think they're awesome. I won't collect the toys though. Can't stand the look of the TFs in the movie, so I'm not going to buy toys based on them. Because I don't buy them I don't have an opinion of them. They could be good, and they few I've bought for my nephew seemed pretty good but they're not something I want.

As for the comics: I've not bought the movie-based ones but everything else I've loved. I suppose I don't give them too much thought is all. I just like them.

The toys: I came to realize a long while back that the only thing about TFs that I was really passionate about was G1. So as far as toys go, I like best that which is like G1 most. I don't have a lot of money and when I do, I prefer to cruise Ebay looking for old toys to buy, but occasionally something new catches my interest and I go buy it. In fact the last several toys I've picked up were from the Generations line. Because they are so closely based on G1 toys and are awesome!

Basically I'm a big fan of G1 and BW and really not much else. It doesn't make me angry and I don't hate everything else. I just don't bother too much with anything else.

For those who do and hate it all. I don't really bother too much with them either. I'm much too old now to give a [composite word including 'f*ck'].

Post by **Denyer** » Sat May 05, 2012 3:20 pm

As a franchise, there's no shortage of tat but I can generally rely on something of interest in the comics and a few figures a year. The license-holder's pretty amenable. Not many complaints, just more other priorities.

I can see why people get annoyed over book or comic series that hold promise (and they've invested time and money into) that then get run into the ground by mismanagement, though.

Professor Smooth · Post by **Professor Smooth** » Sat May 05, 2012 5:23 pm

Something that kind of irks me is adult fans who seem to think that they are that target demographic. That bothers me not only because it's obviously not the case, but because of how far off base it is.

A few months ago, I kind of "lost it" (in as far as a near-30 year old man can do on an internet chat board) on a guy who was basically snarking the hell out of Super Sentai.

Super Sentai, by the way, is the (origina) Japanese version of what gets turned into Power Rangers.

It was, perhaps, the most self-absorbed, snarky thing I've ever come across from a person claiming to be a fan of...well, anything. Every single compliment was offset by some minor complaint.

Now, here's the thing. In English speaking countries, Power Rangers has only EVER been aimed at grade school aged children. There's no writer trying to make a name for himself by taking full advantage of a stint writing comic books. There are no expensive exclusive figures. Power Rangers is aimed ONLY at young children.

In Japan, Super Sentai is aimed almost exclusively at YOUNG [b}Japanese[/b] children. 1st-3rd grade type young. Yeah, in recent years, there have been some attempts made to attract some fans who have gotten older, but those are few and far between. And don't misunderstand me. This isn't an "appeal to older fans." It's an appeal to "people who were fans as young children...who now have children."

So when I see (or read) an English speaking 30-something complaining about a show that could not, possibly, be aimed at a different demographic, I'm just at a loss. I don't even know where to start. The show isn't FOR you. The toys aren't FOR you. They are for VERY young children. That's kind of the entire point of the series.

When I watch Power Rangers (rarely) or Super Sentai (still pretty rare) or Transformers, it's because I want a quick break from my adult life. I just want to enjoy (for 22 minutes at a time) something that I liked as a kid. When life was simpler. And I evaluate the shows the same way. I don't expect something aimed at 8 year olds to completely satisfy my adult tastes. It's nostalgia. The highest praise I can give to a new Transformers or Super Sentai/Power Rangers cartoon/toy is that "I would have loved this when I was a kid."

Admittedly, Transformers is a bit different. The comics are (now) aimed at older fans. And the movies are aimed at the widest possible audiences. The movie comics are aimed at...I honestly don't know. But the toys and cartoons are, and should always be, aimed at kids. Because kids make up the new fans. I can't imagine many people become Transformers fans in their late teens/early 20's. Not the kind of fans that stick around. Without aiming the franchise at kids, the franchise dies out. And that's no good for anybody.

Even my fiancee looks at me like I'm crazy when we're in a Toys R Us and I refuse to buy the last figure on a shelf.

"I'm an adult. I can buy this from Amazon. Or eBay. Or Yahoo Auctions. But the kid who comes here with his parents hoping to find TF: Prime Bumblebee or Ratchet or Optimus or Arcee? He can't. And if he can't get the toy he wants, the franchise loses another potential long-term fan. And without those new fans, the franchise withers and dies."

And I don't want the franchise to die. I freakin' LOVE being able to talk with my nephews, cousins, and students about Transformers. Can you imagine what kind of icebreaker that can be?

"Hi! I'm a teacher from another continent who has come to teach you a subject that, as a ten year old kid, you probably aren't super interested in. And, although I'm about 55cm taller than the tallest person you've ever met, I'll be squeezing into a seat at your table at lunchtime trying to make small talk! Oh, and YES, when I was in elementary school, I watched the same characters on TV that you enjoy now!"

I wish I could share with you the looks on kids faces (the kids who watch cartoons about giant robots) when they realize that they have something they want to talk to me about. "Yes, I know Optimus Prime! Here's a picture of me shaking hands with the voice actor!"

I'm not even sure what I'm getting any anymore. But for all the enjoyment that Transformers has given me over the years, I'm more than happy to overlook its faults. Even if I have to go months or years without paying attention to the franchise, that's fine. At worse, Transformers is a happy memory. Maybe at best, it's a reminder of what it's like to be young. And that kind of memory is VERY useful as an elementary school teacher.

[/b]

Hot Shot · Post by **Hot Shot** » Sun May 06, 2012 5:04 pm

I can't speak for anyone but myself on this, but I find discussions on fiction bland when it's just repetitive gushing and positivity. When there's some level of critiquing and criticism being tossed around, I'm captivated. I learn about things I didn't catch before, and I can draw conclusions from it. I can also bring my own observations to the table and hear others' views about them as well.

When it comes to toys, I'm too busy playing with them to make glowing "OMG AWESOME" posts about it online. If there's something that bothers me about it, then I go online to get it off my chest. I guess that would apply to media as well.

So, I do enjoy the franchise. I just do it privately. I make exceptions to that when something is so awesome I want to talk about it, but that's almost rare in my case.

I admit I do **** all over Bayformers, but that's because it makes me feel better about how awful it is.

inflatable dalek · Post by **inflatable dalek** » Sun May 06, 2012 7:27 pm

Professor Smooth wrote:Something that kind of irks me is adult fans who seem to think that they are that target demographic. That bothers me not only because it's obviously not the case, but because of how far off base it is.

Absolutely, you've always got to be fair in terms of who it's aimed at. I think you can still objectively say that, for example, Armada wasn't an especially good kids cartoon, but coming down hard on the Titan comic or Rescue Bots for being for the little'uns is completely pointless.

Admittedly, Transformers is a bit different. The comics are (now) aimed at older fans. And the movies are aimed at the widest possible audiences. The movie comics are aimed at...I honestly don't know. But the toys and cartoons are, and should always be, aimed at kids. Because kids make up the new fans. I can't imagine many people become Transformers fans in their late teens/early 20's. Not the kind of fans that stick around. Without aiming the franchise at kids, the franchise dies out. And that's no good for anybody.

Indeed, fresh new fans with new opinions are vital to any fandom. That's part of the reason the wide ranging success of the films is such a good thing, it's given the franchise it's widest exposure and biggest success since... well ever at this stage really in that as popular as the original G1 stuff it was only just with kids (Optimus Prime and Bumblebee are now genuine cinema icons. Which is insane. The former is my 50 year old Aunty's favourite action film character. How did that happen?).

The stuff inbetween, however good or bad, was basically at the MASK or Centurions level, something kids did watch but with not much of a legacy to it. Over a decade later not many seem to have come into fandom from RID or Armada, and the failure of the 10th anniversary stuff shows even Beast Wars doesn't have that much of a following outside of those who were already fans at this point. The films, and by extension things like Animated and Prime that are enjoyed by the young film fans, will in years to come bring those grown up kids in. If the films carry on indefinitely (and I genuinely think they could become the American equivalent of Godzilla and run for years) it could even become the dominate part of the fandom.

One thing franchises always need as well though, is new blood behind the scenes. Which is why, even though I've enjoyed all three films to various degrees, I'd rather Michael Bay was moving on at this point as I think he's done all he can with the movies. And why I'm glad IDW are finally beginning to come up with some new (to professional work if not the fan community) talent. Love or hate his mordern stuff but after a quarter century a writer like Furman who tends to use the same tropes over and over has done the best he can with them at this point anyway.

Hopefully the extremely positive reaction to Roberts work will see him as just the first of many fan writers (and I say they need to go to the fan community for two reasons. One, it's worked great for Doctor Who. Second, "Big name" writers generally just aren't going to be interested in Transformers. And considering what the last one we got, Dan Abnett* turned out that may not be a bad thing) who get a chance. Or at least they change their mind about not wanting Nick Roche to write for them, which is on the surface an insane decison considering he was the originator of just about the only thing to get any praise during the Costa years.

*Seriously, he's apparently sold enough books to get onto the "Famous Authors" range of Doctor Who novels alongside Michael Morcock, Stephen Baxter and "Douglas Adams".

saysadie · Post by **saysadie** » Thu May 17, 2012 8:20 am

I think some people just love to hate and criticise for one reason or another. I think it's annoying but I think people have a right to their opinion. *shrugs*

Me, I agree with the BW, BM, RID and Armada bits of your italicised blurb there... I mostly stopped paying attention beyond RiD. I like what I've read of the comics and don't feel any real need to participate in conversation about it/would likely be in over my head, anyway. (I've read your comics discussions, I haven't analysed them nearly as much as you peeps have. Nerds.

)

My collecting focus is probably going to be BW and Neo, and random beast/dinosaur-themed G1s etc. once we can buy fun stuff again.