Transformers: Dark of the Moon (Massive Spoilers)

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Post by Brendocon » Sat Jul 02, 2011 10:24 am

Megs is more "energy overloaded" in the first one than obliterated. I mean his body's still pretty much in one piece. In this one he's still wearing the damage from the second one.

His Allspark-shard resurrection and OP's matrix-fueled-return are the only outright back from the dead's we've seen in the movie continuity.

Okay, a lot of Decepticon character models got reused, but how many times in any continuity do we see TFs with similar designs to others? Loads.

They do say in this film that the Matrix is the only way to revive a deactivated Transformer (presumably reliant on the Allspark no longer existing). And I think even then they still need to be pretty much in one piece. :)

There's definitely an air of finality to this movie. I just hope they don't decide "okay! reboot!" for at least ten years. Yes, I'm looking at you, Spider-Man.

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Post by Professor Smooth » Sat Jul 02, 2011 10:29 am

Some musings on Dark of the Moon, and not just the movie.

What the hell is up with the Ultimate Optimus Prime toy? It's a $90 (MSRP) figure that isn't in the movie. Why is this even a thing? It looks pretty cool, but what's the point of engineering and then releasing the most expensive DotM figure...when it's not in the movie.

Japan gets a figure that actually looks like the one in the movie, Jetwing Optimus Prime. Of course, the MSRP on that thing is close to $200, tying it with MP Rodimus for the title of MOST EXPENSIVE TRANSFORMER EVER...until September, when the $300 MP Convoy 2 comes out.

I don't like bloodthirsty Optimus Prime, but not in the way that I'd have thought. I don't have a problem with Optimus Prime killing his way through Decepticon hordes, ripping off heads, and faces, and executing wounded enemies. Nor do I have a problem with him decapitating the guy who just saved his ass and asked for a truce. I DO have a problem with what he says prior to, and during those things.

"Kill them all." "DIE!" "Let's find out." "Give me your face" "Any last words?/Not today." The "You left me no choice," from the first one was fine. Sorry you made me have to kick your ass, guys. Can't help it. I'm Optimus FREAKING Prime!

Carly's role was obviously changed VERY little from Megan Fox's character. There was the conversation with Megatron. The fact that she's managing car collection (Megan's character was a gear-head). Oh, and there's the little thing about living with Sam. What's the timeline we're dealing with here? Mickaela dumped Sam after they spent over two years together without being able to say "I love you." But a year or so later, Sam's moved in with some chick in Washington?

This was clearly the end of the love-story arc. Movie 1: Boy meets girl. Movie 2: Boy says "I love you." Movie 3: Marriage is considered. (Bumblebee with the rings)

But, no. Megan Fox was replaced and we find that Sam's arc finishes with a woman he picked up on the rebound.

Was Cybertron destroyed?

Couldn't the movie have continued for another five minutes? Because there are some HUGE unanswered questions. Like, for example, what happens after the Autobots (who were legally deported) illegally returned and fought a war that leveled (almost literally) Chicago. This wasn't something that could be covered up (1st movie), and the battle zone wasn't mostly limited to the desert and a pyramid.

With Megatron, Soundwave, Starscream, Devastator, the Fallen, and Shockwave gone, the Decepticons are pretty much done, right? There's not much as far as the chain of command. The remaining 'Cons would pretty much have to just give up. Then again, surrendering to the Movie Autobots seems akin to suicide, so maybe that's not much of an option.

Here's hoping for an IDW epilogue.
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Post by Brendocon » Sat Jul 02, 2011 10:32 am

Professor Smooth wrote:This was clearly the end of the love-story arc. Movie 1: Boy meets girl. Movie 2: Boy says "I love you." Movie 3: Marriage is considered. (Bumblebee with the rings)

But, no. Megan Fox was replaced and we find that Sam's arc finishes with a woman he picked up on the rebound.
Sounds pretty realistic to me.

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Post by Professor Smooth » Sat Jul 02, 2011 11:20 am

Brendocon wrote:
Professor Smooth wrote:This was clearly the end of the love-story arc. Movie 1: Boy meets girl. Movie 2: Boy says "I love you." Movie 3: Marriage is considered. (Bumblebee with the rings)

But, no. Megan Fox was replaced and we find that Sam's arc finishes with a woman he picked up on the rebound.
Sounds pretty realistic to me.
If I wanted realism, I wouldn't have spent the better (best?) part of my live running away from reality.
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Post by inflatable dalek » Sat Jul 02, 2011 1:30 pm

It did actually feel to me at times as if they did do a draft before they knew Fox was gone and didn't change the female role very much afterwards.

As well as the aforementioned very odd conversation with Megatron, you've got Carley just having started a brand new job looking after a classic car collection- exactly the sort of thing Mikaela would have gone for (indeed, it's easy to see her as the one who'd be the more active in getting good emplyment on their move to Washington). And Lennox acting as if he has a clue who she is, even though the implication has always been he and Sam don't really hang out between films.
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Post by Brendocon » Sat Jul 02, 2011 4:01 pm

Right, just seen this a second time. Answered my own question re the Autobot ships - it is the same one in both cases. Huzzah for continuity.

In answer to other questions, and I can't remember if they were posted here or another thread I was skimming elsewhere. I'm sure Dalek was in the conversation. Actually I think it was elsewhere, but I can't be arsed to register there and get sucked into whiny arguments with people who spent the past 4 years bitching about how they hate the Bay films but were still first in line when the new one opened.

- Why did the Decepticons shoot down Sentinel's ship if he was defecting?
- Megatron operates a need to know policy. As evidenced by Starscream being completely in the dark about it. Clearly the ship shooting him down didn't get copied in on the memo.

- Why did the Decepticons wait for Sentinel rather than just taking the control pillar and going through with the plan anyway?
- He designed it and he's the only one who can operate it. Maybe he's the only one who knows how to configure them (the right distances, formation, etc) or maybe the control pillar is just linked to his energy signature.

- Why was Epps separate to the Nest guys, not just in the wave entering Chicago with Lennox?
- To give Sam a reason for being in that building during the worm attack, thus killing story time for the others to show up. Otherwise they're just sort of meandering aimlessly waiting for backup. As it is, Epps' unit has weapons, so they go for a high vantage point to take the pillars out. Sure, they could have done the same scene after everybody had arrived, but then you've either got the issue of what they were upto in the meantime, or another scene showing what they've been doing, which drags the whole thing out even longer.

Blah blah blah.

God that changing aspect ratio and film stock quality in the opening scenes is annoying.

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Post by inflatable dalek » Sun Jul 03, 2011 3:24 am

Brendocon wrote: - Why did the Decepticons shoot down Sentinel's ship if he was defecting?
- Megatron operates a need to know policy. As evidenced by Starscream being completely in the dark about it. Clearly the ship shooting him down didn't get copied in on the memo.
Yep, that makes sense, it's just a shame there wasn't a line to explain it (especially considering some of the painful ADR exposition we did get, "Why Mr. Lennox, please explain what the Matrix is in 500 words or less").

It's very hard to tell how much of this sort of thing is down to the film makers respecting the audience is smart enough to work it out without being spelt out, or them thinking they had a perfectly coherant plot without noticing all the niggly bits, or how much is down to them hoping the hypnoitic scantily clad 3D arse that opens the main bulk of the movie will push all such thoughts out the viewers head.

Though perhaps I'm being unfair on that shot of Carly as I didn't (and indeed can't) see it in 3D, but the way the camera weaved around it sure created the impression those with glasses would be feeling as if they had two giant buttocks around their head...
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Post by Sunyavadin » Mon Jul 04, 2011 12:41 am

Brendocon wrote: I just hope they don't decide "okay! reboot!" for at least ten years.
I'm hoping they do.

Soon.

With Neill Blomkamp directing.

And Furman collaborating with Christopher Nolan on writing.

And Weta doing the effects.

And good.




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Post by The Last Autobot » Mon Jul 04, 2011 6:19 am

Starscream was the one who fired the last missiles that "destroyed" Sentinel´s Ark, just because Megatron didn´t tell him he was defecting.

I really like that Op kills every damn decepticon. Its just a lot more realistic that the usual Optimus "I spare everybody so they can later kill me and my friends" Prime.

This is war. And we see that the Autobots are not faring too good. There are like 200 decepticons and just 11 Autobots. So you can´t be Merciful Prime. And if we read all the prequel and sequel comics we can see how a lot of autobots are killed like crap (even Elita 1 by Shockwave just in front of Prime) so Op must take that kind of choices.

And the issue of no "Decepticon Leader-high ranking around" has been done before. So in the movieverse there could be a Thunderwing or (another aside the movie toy) Bludgeon around. Or in a worst case scenario maybe Unicron coming and reviving Megatron as Galvatron or well a lot of options actually,.
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Post by inflatable dalek » Mon Jul 04, 2011 6:20 am

Christ, don't let Furman anywhere near it.

Unless there's a really long gap before the next film (unlikely unless this one turns out to be a surprise bomb) they won't be rebooting anytime. As far as the general film going public it's still too new, it's not something like Superman where he's been mainstream long enough for people to be used to the changing set up by now.
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Post by Ozz » Mon Jul 04, 2011 6:48 pm

Haha, Jeff from Chuck was in it.

Why is Megatron sitting in the alley when Carly finds him? He wasn't shown falling when they shot the main pillar. Did Sentinel knock him off the building after he explained to him how their alliance actually works and I missed it?

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Post by Brendocon » Mon Jul 04, 2011 10:50 pm

He was having a time out. Because he felt like it.

?

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Post by Yaya » Thu Jul 07, 2011 4:43 pm

Bad movie. Not ROTF awful, but bad nonetheless.

What sucks even more is that this movie actually had some potential. The plot was quite good and the cast was there. But if anyone knows how to destroy the chances of making a good movie, its Bay.

I think the movie started quite well. About thirty minutes in I was thinking "they may actually pull this off". Then, the ridiculous Bayisms which we were promised wouldn't happen, well, happened. Enter Sam's parents. Enter silly jokes. Enter much of the **** that made ROTF the disaster it was.

And the ending was about thirty minutes too long. How many scenes of colliding metal shavings can one tolerate?

Shockwave was barely in the thing. Guess he was the smokescreen for Sentinel's betrayal. I guess his skimpy screen time can be considered a blessing if you're a Shockwave fan.

There were some visually nice special effects which saved this film from falling to ROTF status. The car chase scene was beautiful, particularly when Bumblebee transformed with Sam inside him. The whole crashing building scene at the end was also well done.

In the end, I have to agree with most of the critics. There are some films which ask you not to think, and then there are those that assume you don't know how to. That's DOTM. Give it a "D+" or 1 and a half stars.
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Post by Kaylee » Thu Jul 07, 2011 8:05 pm

The Yaya Review Committee gives this just 9 thumbs up (equivalent to AAA- rating).

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Post by Predabot » Fri Jul 08, 2011 10:46 pm

I just saw it.

And... it wasn't terrible. :)

There are plot-holes all over the place, and there are groan-inducingly bad acting at times, and extras that just seem clueless.

However... The story was actually more coherent than ROTF, less insipid jokes, and the parents have a much lesser role this time around.

Overall, an actual improvement from the last one. Action-wise they actually managed to top the inferno that was ROTF, and take it to the next level, with some actual clever effects to beef it up.

It's still an utterly brain-dead action-movie, but it probably is one of the biggest and baddest ones of the braindead type, since, well, ever. So, as such, it's actually quite entertaining, for the simple types, such as myself. =)

Got no idea how to grade it, but I suppose it might be comparable to the first one?

Yeah, that's the ticket.

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Post by Best First » Mon Jul 11, 2011 5:11 pm

i kind of enjoyed it, niether of which means;

a) its not sh*t
b) it could not have been literally a million times better

Just that i have an affection for the wider subject matter and like seeing robots hitting each other.

Plus i really hate Merciless Prime.
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Post by Mr_Tigg » Tue Jul 12, 2011 2:06 pm

Finally caved in and went to see it last night at the IMAX – now it’s time for my post viewing critique. Frankly there were so many inconsistencies that it would take me an age to list them – so I’ll just set out a few examples of some of the more glaring fudge ups:

Overall, I agree with Yaya, it was an improvement on ROTF, and the first half of the film was watchable, however the final half descends into a typical Bayformers affair with logic holes galore, screaming sam, shakey cam, shouty bravado military types, choppy editing & chaotic explosions.

As usual the TFs feature primarily as plot devices with little dialogue and no characterisation (barring Optimus, Sentinel & Bumblebee), while a ton of screen time is dedicated to ‘fleshing out’ the two-dimensional human characters.

Like Bayformers 1 & 2, many non-essential human characters are added to the roster (John Malkovich I’m looking your way), taking up valuable screen time while contributing nothing to the plot, barring the odd “comedy” moment.

In contrast, poignant moments like Sentinel’s betrayal and execution of Ironhide are brushed over far too quickly (speaking of which where the heck is Optimus when it all kicks off? The previous scene he was WITH sentinel!). Poor Ironhide doesn’t even get so much as a mention after his death – apparently no time for mourning, yet there’s always time for more misfiring comedy.

Ironhide isn’t the only TF to be shafted! Shockwave, despite being in all the advertisement campaigns, has all but 5 minutes of screen time and one line of audible dialogue! Why is he even on Earth? We never get an explanation.

As has been well documented, the mighty Optimus coldly butchers every Decepticon he encounters like some energon-crazed berserker. It’s all very bizarre considering how much movie-verse Prime preaches about protecting life and the value of freedom – apparently that doesn’t include his own race though!

Cinematically it just doesn’t work – Optimus comes across as a bit of a schizophrenic nutter that can’t decide what type of leader he wants to be.

Another problem I noticed was how much DOTM contradicts the continuity set up in the previous films. Heat sensitivity is no longer the TFs main weakness, with standard firearms proving just as effective.

Also I recall that in Bayformers 1, they decided not to have TFs in spaceships, rationalising that since they’re advanced robots they could turn into ships themselves. Yet now TFs are back to using ships like in the cartoons and comics.

Furthermore – a minor gripe - what happened to Movie TFs having integrated weaponry? They’ve gone from having inbuilt weapons to carrying rifles and blades - such as Megatron’s arm cannon being replaced with a wimpy rifle.

Oh and the Carly-girl can’t act for ****.

On the plus side, I enjoyed the references to TF lore, such as the Ark, Sentinel as Optimus’s predecessor, the spacebridge and the chase scene was visually spectacular. The 3D was also of an excellent standard.

I’d give it 2 out of 5 – time for a reboot please with a director in charge who’s more in tune with the source material.

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Post by Kaylee » Tue Jul 12, 2011 7:06 pm

Best First wrote:i kind of enjoyed it, niether of which means;

a) its not sh*t
b) it could not have been literally a million times better

Just that i have an affection for the wider subject matter and like seeing robots hitting each other.

Plus i really hate Merciless Prime.
I'm honestly not sure what difference there is between Prime and the Decepticons, other than Prime tolerates humans. Other than that they're kinda the same animal.

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Post by Best First » Tue Jul 12, 2011 8:21 pm

One thing that irks me - they made an effort with Prime to keep him more or less on line with the image we know - but with more of a 'real world' feel. Why couldn't this be done for the others? Why can't Ratchet be white and red and not have a face that looks like a bin? Why can't Ironhide be read and have a face that doesn't look like a six pack of lager?

Why do it for Prime and not the others?
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Post by Mr_Tigg » Wed Jul 13, 2011 10:03 am

Best First wrote:One thing that irks me - they made an effort with Prime to keep him more or less on line with the image we know - but with more of a 'real world' feel. Why couldn't this be done for the others? Why can't Ratchet be white and red and not have a face that looks like a bin? Why can't Ironhide be read and have a face that doesn't look like a six pack of lager?

Why do it for Prime and not the others?
I think initially because Prime's the iconic one - everyone knows what optimus prime looks like. The others aren't well known enough by the average Joe to justify sticking to their 'correct' looks.

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Post by Professor Smooth » Wed Jul 13, 2011 11:35 am

I can't find a pic, but the original Prime concept art made him look like a roman gladiator.
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Post by Best First » Wed Jul 13, 2011 8:29 pm

Mr_Tigg wrote:
Best First wrote:One thing that irks me - they made an effort with Prime to keep him more or less on line with the image we know - but with more of a 'real world' feel. Why couldn't this be done for the others? Why can't Ratchet be white and red and not have a face that looks like a bin? Why can't Ironhide be read and have a face that doesn't look like a six pack of lager?

Why do it for Prime and not the others?
I think initially because Prime's the iconic one - everyone knows what optimus prime looks like. The others aren't well known enough by the average Joe to justify sticking to their 'correct' looks.
what would the harm be tho, eh?
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Post by Hot Shot » Thu Jul 14, 2011 5:03 am

CAUSE BLOCKY CARDBORED ROBOTS LIEK IN TEH CARTOON WOOD LOOK STUPID AND DUMB.


Or something.
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Post by Best First » Thu Jul 14, 2011 5:45 am

missing the point

this, with a better face, would have been aces;

http://transformers.proboards.com/index ... hread=1783

or this

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/44 ... d2wo6.jpg/
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Post by inflatable dalek » Thu Jul 14, 2011 6:24 am

I think movie Ironhide looks great, a nice big bruiser with a permanently grumpy face that suits his personality down to a tee. I'd say he's actually one of the real successes of the films. Indeed, I'd say all the first film Autobots generally worked, except for the slightly dull Jazz (silver just isn't very exciting, I find Sideswipe suffers a bit from the same problem).

It's always been the Decepticons who've had the real problem, military greens and greys might be true to their alt modes, but it does tend to make them all blurr into one a bit.

As for Ironhide's colour, does that make of car come in red? I suspect there's a requirement to keep to the showroom colours. Or colors if you will.
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Post by Hot Shot » Fri Jul 15, 2011 7:44 am

Best First wrote:missing the point

this, with a better face, would have been aces;

http://transformers.proboards.com/index ... hread=1783

or this

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/44 ... d2wo6.jpg/
I agree completely. I remember a guy by the name of timshinn who whipped up some really nice G1 movie designs(which the second link has his head design photoshopped in). It's a shame he decided he was "wrong" and stopped entirely.


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PS MICKEL BEH SAVED TRANDSFORMRS N U SHOLD BE HAPPY!!1! >:(
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Post by inflatable dalek » Fri Jul 15, 2011 8:27 am

Well, at least when his head disintegrated he was more like the original toy.

One thing that's been mentioned a few times, most recently in an interview with one of the ILM bods a couple of SFX's ago is that red, for whatever techno reason, is incredibly hard to do (I assume in the context of real looking metal) in CGI. Apparently Optimus Prime is still a bitch to render even after three films and not being all red. This is likely another reason why Dino didn't do very much. So doing both red Ironhide and Prime in the same scenes in the first film would likely have been a real, needless headache.

Plus, those first film Autobots are all distinctly different colours to help them stand out as much as possible from one another, a fairly sensible move as the Decepticons (mostly stuck in military greys and greens) seem to have suffered a lot more from "I had no idea who was who" complaints from non-fans.

So on the hand of him not being like the G1 version we have: easier to create in CGI, is distinctive from the other Autobots (unless someone thinks Prime should have been the one to lose the red?) and he isn't actually G1 Ironhide anymore than Energon Ironhide is (and no one ever said he'd look better if he was red did they? Though now I've said that it'll turn out there was a red version repaint. And he was still ****).

Plus, and I'll admit this is subjective, does anyone else think his alt mode would look really odd in red? Those big bruiser truck things seem made to be black (though no doubt they come in different colours, you just never seem to see them). Try imagining the truck Marty McFly finds in the garage at the end of Back to the Future (or, if you like, the start of Back to the Future II. or indeed, the end of the third one...) in red. It just seems wrong doesn't it?
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I would actually argue that one nice side effect of the films, whatever their qualities is that the general state of the Transformers nation is much better than it was pre-Bay. We've had two cartoons that, whilst not to everyone's taste, have improved tenfold on the Unicron stuff, all the toylines are much improved whether you're looking for something for the little'un or some Classics goodness (a Straxus!) and the comics... Well, OK, two out of three aint bad.

But the general kick up the arse the franchise as a whole has received is down to the films and their commercial success. And that's a good thing. Doesn't mean we should be bowing down and kissing Bay's arse of course, but I do think there's a lot to enjoy at the moment even if you're someone who's perfectly happy to ignore the movies. I think we're going to look back on this period as a golden age for Transformers, and I'm certainly making more of a concious effort to just have fun with it rather than just doing what I usually do and focus on the negative (like, say, totally random example... my Andy Schmidt voodoo doll).
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Post by Metal Vendetta » Thu Jul 28, 2011 7:45 pm

So...the guy who looks like Wheeljack is Roadbuster, the blue guy with the stupid hair who everyone calls "Q" is Wheeljack, the silver guy is Sideswipe and the red guy who everyone calls "Dino" is Mirage. Huh.

Overall, I liked it though.
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Post by Professor Smooth » Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:29 am

The movie opens in Japan today. Probably gonna head down to the theater to catch the 3D showing this afternoon.

I wonder if history will repeat and all TF stuff will fly off the shelves now that the movie's in release.
snarl wrote:Just... really... what the **** have [IDW] been taking for the last 2 years?
Brendocon wrote:Yaya's money.

Professor Smooth
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Post by Professor Smooth » Fri Jul 29, 2011 8:00 am

Thoughts:

Wow, that was really long.

My eyes are killing me.

Special effects = amazing.

Plot holes big enough to drive a bus through.

They say "****" a lot.

I kind of thought that Megatron was offering a truce to Sentinel Prime, not Optimus Prime.
snarl wrote:Just... really... what the **** have [IDW] been taking for the last 2 years?
Brendocon wrote:Yaya's money.

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