Marvel US comic marathon

Post by **spiderfrommars** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:02 pm

So I was sorting out some old trade paperbacks and then decided I would read the whole of the Marvel US comic in order.

I've never done it before.... in the old days I would read my UK comics, together with the adapted US stories within, which was an altogether different experience no doubt. This way I'll be getting no Target 2006, no Time Wars, no Dinobot Hunt, though I will get to digest the US stories as originally intended.

First thing I've realised after reading the first three is that they're a fun read and it's easy to see why they were a hit at the time. Now I'm older I seem to be free of any sense of embarrassment I used to have about these early issues.

Sure issue 1 is extremely clunky but it is full of epic ideas. And there's a real sense of fun in Salicrup's writing in issues 2 and 3, especially when Spider-man pops up. And a hell of a lot of effort went into giving the plethora of Transformer characters distinctive personalities from the off... credit to Bob B for that.

Basically, I'm quite enjoying myself... So has anyone else done this? Anyone with me? Eh?

bumblemusprime · Post by **bumblemusprime** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:28 pm

Oh yeah, but of course we had no UK comic to splice it with...

Good luck with some of the weaker points in the run. Stay with it.

Post by **Best First** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:57 pm

Non of which are as bad as 'International Incident'.

Yeah, even the Mechanic was better than International Incident.

Post by **Kaylee** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:59 pm

Funny to see how comics have evolved over the years, eh?

Reminds me when I happen to watch an old VHS (taped off the telly) and see how far adverts have come from being vaguely cute/innocuous 20 years ago to being downright obnoxious!

Optimus Prime Rib · Post by **Optimus Prime Rib** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:40 am

carwash of doom
Skids the Cowboy

Legion · Post by **Legion** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 2:14 pm

Best First wrote:Yeah, even the Mechanic was better than International Incident.

Only because it features the return of Prowl!

Post by **spiderfrommars** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:26 pm

Well the comic gets a massive boost when Bob Budiansky takes over at issue 5. This must be back when Bob was young and hungry and had everything to prove. He takes the cozy little world of the cartoon and turns it upside down. Shockwave becomes leader, in comes the Creation Matrix, all the Autobots bar one are strung up like slabs of beef. Splendid.

Legion · Post by **Legion** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 4:48 pm

spiderfrommars wrote:Well the comic gets a massive boost when Bob Budiansky takes over at issue 5. This must be back when Bob was young and hungry and had everything to prove. He takes the cozy little world of the cartoon and turns it upside down. Shockwave becomes leader, in comes the Creation Matrix, all the Autobots bar one are strung up like slabs of beef. Splendid.

100% agree. That run of comics (all the time that Prime's just a head on a spike) is fantastic, some really classic stuff there.

Post by **spiderfrommars** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 9:40 pm

Legion wrote: 100% agree. That run of comics (all the time that Prime's just a head on a spike) is fantastic, some really classic stuff there.

Classic's the right word. Megatron and Shockwave just had their legendary punch up in issue 6. Prime just frazzled Buster as he transferred the Matrix. Josie Beller just got electrocuted... that's not gonna turn out well. And she seemed such a nice young girl too.

Classic moments, all.

Am I reading too much into it to say these storylines might have been inspired by real world events (which now seems even more applicable?). The warring over the Earth's fuel resources I mean. I'd never given it much thought until now.

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 10:43 pm

For some reason, I did and still do fancy circuit breaker ...

Metal Vendetta · Post by **Metal Vendetta** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:46 pm

You'll be catching up to the tpb I've been keeping by the lavatory for the last week (beginning with Shooting Star and finishing with Bridge to Nowhere) soon. Likewise, I've been thoroughly enjoying the read. You wouldn't get a kids' comic about a man who found a magic gun that enabled him to achieve fame and wealth these days, would you?

Yaya · Post by **Yaya** » Sat Feb 05, 2011 2:28 am

Classic's the right word. Megatron and Shockwave just had their legendary punch up in issue 6. Prime just frazzled Buster as he transferred the Matrix. Josie Beller just got electrocuted... that's not gonna turn out well. And she seemed such a nice young girl too.

Classic moments, all.

Absolutely. And who can forget Ratchet's time with the Dinobots?

inflatable dalek · Post by **inflatable dalek** » Sat Feb 05, 2011 10:51 am

When I do a readthrough I tend to splice the UK and US stuff together in proper reading order (not as easy as it sounds thanks to various publishers refusal to reprint certain stories and having to cheat slightly on the B&W stuff so I don't just read five pages of a US issue at a time).

The American comic is generally a different beast to the UK one, generally being more of a fun silly kids title. That's not in anyway a bad thing though, after all, supposed to be a fun silly kids title and there's nowt wrong with doing exactly what it says on the tin. Only Bob's last few issues are really bad. Though the Grimlock as crazy leader arc gets a bit lost amongst the Headmasters and random cute children and their teddy bears.

Post by **spiderfrommars** » Sat Feb 05, 2011 3:10 pm

Metal Vendetta wrote: Likewise, I've been thoroughly enjoying the read.

So did we have a sense of humour failure at some point? We used to bitch endlessly about this comic run on this board.

Or is it just that some of the DW and IDW stuff has been so bad it's been easier to reappreciate some of these gems?

Just read Warrior School. Both script and art was ace.

Metal Vendetta wrote:You wouldn't get a kids' comic about a man who found a magic gun that enabled him to achieve fame and wealth these days, would you?

Well if I remember rightly, Mr Slick did get his comeuppance in the end. The moral of the story? "Don't become a gangster kids! Or team up with an alien shapeshifting-robot-magic-gun. That would be bad."

Post by **spiderfrommars** » Sun Feb 06, 2011 10:07 pm

Still struck by Budiansky's ability to individualise the Autobots so well. Some great character moments for Jazz in the Circuit Breaker issue. His love of Earth culture was barely touched on in the old comics but was used to great effect here.

And then in the next issue Huffer gets a chance to shine. But the whole Bomber Bill thing reminds you that Budiansky was determined the stories always be seen through the eyes of the human supporting characters. I guess it's what makes his stories something you're into or not. The Bay movies have sort of followed that format.

Legion · Post by **Legion** » Mon Feb 07, 2011 2:44 pm

spiderfrommars wrote: So did we have a sense of humour failure at some point? We used to bitch endlessly about this comic run on this board.

Or is it just that some of the DW and IDW stuff has been so bad it's been easier to reappreciate some of these gems?

Well i for one, would struggle to decide which is worse, Carwash of Doom or All Hail Megatron...

bumblemusprime · Post by **bumblemusprime** » Mon Feb 07, 2011 3:58 pm

I really don't think the writing's improved, with the exception of Last Stand and Simon's increasing skills. Costa and McCarthy would write the same stuff Budiansky did in his low moments if they were in that situation.

The look of the comics has improved. Better colors, better art, and more consistent character designs. I wouldn't say the writing is any better.

Metal Vendetta · Post by **Metal Vendetta** » Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:27 pm

spiderfrommars wrote:
Metal Vendetta wrote: Likewise, I've been thoroughly enjoying the read.
So did we have a sense of humour failure at some point? We used to bitch endlessly about this comic run on this board.

I think it's more the end of Bob's run that falls down - it's increasingly obvious as the cast grows that he's starting not to care and so plot points such as the Autobot leadership struggle are left wanting. Blaster's character arc just sort of evaporates after Club 'Con and a lot of stuff happens off-panel around that time - Prime returns and takes command from Grimlock but we never really see any of it.

spidey wrote:Well if I remember rightly, Mr Slick did get his comeuppance in the end. The moral of the story? "Don't become a gangster kids! Or team up with an alien shapeshifting-robot-magic-gun. That would be bad."

Though before that, there's plenty of lines like "Yeah, gun, you're the best thing ever! Me and you are going places!" I know Slick ends up realising that he doesn't need Megatron, but then he almost begs Megatron to kill him - it's a lot more, er, adult, I suppose, than I would expect kids' comics these days to be. I should probably pick up some of the Titan issues to see how they compare, but I doubt they carry stories along the lines of "Wannabe gangster finds magic gun that makes all his dreams come true, then tries to persuade gun to kill him." I just can't see that clearing legal.

That's not to say the Comics Code isn't evident in the old stuff - Megs has the motivation and the opportunity to squash Robot Master and Slick but is somehow persuaded otherwise in the space of three issues, which frankly makes him look a bit of a softy, but tbh I'll forgive anything for the beautiful start to I, Robot Master where he tries to eat coal. That's one of my all-time top Megatron moments right there. And there's collateral damage amongst the military forces in that issue, if you squint. Robot Master's quite cynical too, I like him.

bumblemusprime · Post by **bumblemusprime** » Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:07 pm

Don Perlin was really a solid artist, too. I have to give credit to Deblo for his longevity and consistent output, but Perlin was the best of the pre-UK-import artists.

I liked how IDW started reprinting some of the goofier and fun TF issues, including Mister Slick and the Car Wash of Doom. Bob was good at fun little one-offs and I miss that. Simon can be a really tight writer for one-issue arcs too. It's a skill that I wish more modern-day comic writers would learn. The guys who survived the 80s and 90s can all do it. Peter David had a fantastic one-off vignette issue of FN Spider-Man in which a girl spent her whole life thinking that Spidey stalked her. But in the 21st century, we decompress until we're in a ******* vaccuum.

Post by **spiderfrommars** » Sat Feb 12, 2011 12:53 pm

The two issue conclusion to the Prime head saga is great stuff, and possibly concludes Budiansky's most exciting ever arc. Buster blowing up Jetfire, Prime and Shockwave's clash... he even finally gave Jessie something to do. (But pity poor "O", whatever happened to that guy?)

However, the next three issues really do highlight how the Transformers often became the co-stars of their very own comic in the US run.

The stories do have their charms though. Shooting Star works, for reasons already discussed, and Rock & Roll Out enhances the TF mythos further with ideas like the Rite of Autobrand and Facsmile Constructs.

Meanwhile I, Robot Master introduces long running characters like Finkleberg, Barnett and Forsythe as well as a rather annoying (but neccesary?) subplot in Triple I. The government organisation is kinda like the Daily Bugle of the TF comic, continually painting the TFs in a villainous light.

Metal Vendetta wrote:Robot Master's quite cynical too, I like him.

I've always liked him, particularly later, when his character softens. I can't think of many human characters armed with better quips and one-liners. And one of the best ever quotes in a Transformers comic to this day has to be "I'm not interested in a potato salad man graphic novel called 'This Man, This Mayonnaise' either!" Budiansky wrote some funny ****.

The opening and closing of this story with Megatron causing carnage is great too. To be honest, I think the splitting up of these stories in the UK comic did them more harm than good. It meant you'd sometimes get an issue with 10 pages of human scenes and 1 with Transformers. No wonder they sometimes seemed at the time... boring. (Though compared to Crisis of Command and Dinobot Hunt, I suppose they were).

bumblemusprime wrote:Don Perlin was really a solid artist, too. I have to give credit to Deblo for his longevity and consistent output, but Perlin was the best of the pre-UK-import artists.

I've got a lot of time for Perlin, particularly later when they gave him good inkers. Gone But Not Forgotten might be his finest work.

Though I would say the best pre-UK artist was William Johnson by some way. With Graham Nolan in the Plight of the Bumblebee issue probably next.

Delbo often just seemed to cram as many TFs into a panel as possible, lining them up like a bunch of toys. Which, uh, they were.

Post by **Best First** » Sun Feb 13, 2011 5:18 pm

spiderfrommars wrote:To be honest, I think the splitting up of these stories in the UK comic did them more harm than good. It meant you'd sometimes get an issue with 10 pages of human scenes and 1 with Transformers. No wonder they sometimes seemed at the time... boring. (Though compared to Crisis of Command and Dinobot Hunt, I suppose they were).

Yeah that is an interesting point.

Altho as you say, compared to the SF scripted, generally better drawn UK stuff you can see why it paled a bit in comparison.

Which i think is why we griped so much about this stuff back in the day, my reaction to a US story was generally one of dissapointment as it meant 4 issues or so of dot matrix colouring and generally a less well told story before we got more of the better quality stuff.

Plus of course there are some really stupid bits - like Afterdeath's ending.

And some bits that just jarred to hard - like stupid grimlock.

In terms of writing, what we have now is certainly no better than the original US run, which given that they are not writing under the same constraints (at least that is what we are told) is not at all impressive. In fact i will go further and say it's definitley not as good as Bob B's stuff - at least he had some notable character arcs, Skids, Blaster, Ratchet, Goldbug and actually added to the mythos as stated above. The current montly collection of toilet paper does non of these things.

Post by **spiderfrommars** » Sun Feb 13, 2011 10:04 pm

Plight of the Bumblebee. I used to prefer this story to the three that came before. Pacier, better artwork, but really... the plot was probably written on the back of a cigarette packet. Bit odd that we're asked to sympathise with a pair of joyriders too. But at least it wasn't boring.

Best First wrote: Which i think is why we griped so much about this stuff back in the day, my reaction to a US story was generally one of dissapointment as it meant 4 issues or so of dot matrix colouring and generally a less well told story before we got more of the better quality stuff.

Without a doubt. What a drag it was coming down to Aerialbots Over America after the highs of Target 2006. Or The Mechanic after Wanted Galvatron: Dead or Alive. *shudder*

That said, just read the first part of Return to Cybertron. The Smelting Pool could be the single most horrific invention ever in a TF comic. Scrounge's death is one of the all time great moments. And the whole mood of the piece has pervaded the very best TF stories that have come since.

Post by **Best First** » Mon Feb 14, 2011 8:06 pm

Yes. Plus the follow up arc where Perceptor starts with a small army and ends up with 7 guys.

Suddenly we had a proper war comic.

On that note - **** cartoon Blaster in the ass.

inflatable dalek · Post by **inflatable dalek** » Mon Feb 14, 2011 9:06 pm

A very good podcast interview with Bob can be found here:

http://moonbase2.libsyn.com/the-moonbas ... budiansky-

Even if you don't like how a lot of his stuff turned out it's hard to completely disagree with his reasoning, after all, moving away from contemporary Earth based stuff and heavy human interaction did coincide with the death of the franchise (in America at least).

Loved his story about Furman taking over as well. "I didn't know if his stuff was good or bad and I didn't care, I just needed someone with a pulse to present to Marvel as my replacement".

Post by **spiderfrommars** » Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:25 pm

I wish I'd known that podcast was an hour long before I started listening to it! But it was very interesting, kinda like a pleasant chat down the pub with a TF legend.

Brilliant hearing where he got names like Ironhide and Ratchet from (seems pretty obvious now). And the interview just again reinforces how much he put into the mythos we still love to this day.

Didn't realise Car Wash of Doom has had a re-evaluation though. Guess I'll see when I get to it.

The geek in me wanted to correct him and tell him he meant to say 'Scraplets' and not 'Mecannibals'. Old habits die hard I guess.

inflatable dalek · Post by **inflatable dalek** » Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:33 pm

I think it's been re-evaluated just in the sense people tend not to mind it as silly frothy nonsense these days. Plus, Ratbat ftw.

The most interesting bit to me as I don't think I've heard him talk about it before was his first reaction to fandom. Imagine googling yourself and finding out so many people hate you for your day job 15 years earlier. I found his response to all that very mature, and indeed he does have a point in that he was writing a comic for 8 year olds, of course people heading towards 20 are likely to find it a bit lacking when they revisit it. That's the sort of thing all those terrible "I *HEART* Nostalgia" shows rely on, having someone like Andrew Collins pop up to go "Hey, this stuff you liked as a child was pretty childish wasn't it, snigger".

One thing I've found over the last couple of years is I've tended to move beyond that a bit. After the best part of a decade of taking the piss out of it I can sit down and watch, say, The A-Team in an entirely unironic way just accepting it's a very silly kids show made watchable by great casting and some surprisingly good stunts.

Legion · Post by **Legion** » Wed Feb 16, 2011 11:21 am

bumblemusprime wrote:The look of the comics has improved. Better colors, better art, and more consistent character designs. I wouldn't say the writing is any better.

For the most part neither would I and I think that's where the change in attitude towards Bob's work has come from. Before DW and IDW people scoffed at some of his work because it felt dated and targeted at young kids, but then the Pat Lee's and the Mad Brick's of the world arrived and showed us how a 'modern' TF comic was written - apparently with the creative talent of a two year old - far, far worse than Bob ever did (IMHO).

Ozz · Post by **Ozz** » Wed Feb 16, 2011 12:44 pm

I never understood why Carwash of Doom was the famous bad one around the fandom. There were worse issues.

And especially, it's weird when someone uses Carwash as a arguement towards the cartoon. Quality aside, there's at least one episode that has basically the same plot.

Legion · Post by **Legion** » Wed Feb 16, 2011 1:35 pm

Ozz wrote:I never understood why Carwash of Doom was the famous bad one around the fandom. There were worse issues.

Because it became the "token poor issue" maybe? probably used as by some people who'd heard other people using it and weren't too familiar with all the details but wanted to sling some mud? *shrugs* I dunno.

I certainly think that wrestling issue is far, far worse than Carwash... but by that point i think Bob was probably a burnt out shell as far as it came to TFs.

Post by **spiderfrommars** » Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:13 am

Bridge to Nowhere is EPIC. Surely it was the biggest battle the comic had seen so far. The Blaster/Straxus showdown was exciting stuff too.

It's worth remembering that certain dialogue in this was rejigged for the UK issue, and in that continuity Shockwave and Megatron were co-commanding the Decepticons. It was done pretty seamlessly though.

And it's a big moment when they receive Straxus' message. And it all nicely ties in to Soundwave sending that message out in an older issue. Nice to see Bob pick up these things.

That said, what ever happened to poor Spanner?

There's a character whose fate was left hanging.

Very interesting how Bob largely ignored Cybertron from here on in, despite the success of these two issues. Gave Furman a big world to play in in the process though.

inflatable dalek wrote: I found his response to all that very mature, and indeed he does have a point in that he was writing a comic for 8 year olds, of course people heading towards 20 are likely to find it a bit lacking when they revisit it.

Fair point, but don't the best kids stories work best when children aren't written down to? Not saying that's what Bob did. But it is fair to compare like with like, and some stories work on a lot more levels, which means the ones that don't may be deserving of some criticism.

Legion wrote:I certainly think that wrestling issue is far, far worse than Carwash... but by that point i think Bob was probably a burnt out shell as far as it came to TFs.

I remember at the time of the wrestling issue that I was just glad that we had any new stories at all! We'd recently had 12 issues of repeat stories.

Hmm, Roadhandler was kinda like a pint-sized Blaster wasn't he?