Preview for issue 9...

bumblemusprime · Post by **bumblemusprime** » Fri Aug 13, 2010 11:25 pm

Jack is still wrong. But that IDW board is a little snippy like a bunch of junior high school girls, eh?

Yaya · Post by **Yaya** » Sat Aug 14, 2010 5:15 pm

I was so bored, I actually defended Andy against some emo poster. Then got my posts deleted.

Good times.

Jack Cade · Post by **Jack Cade** » Sun Aug 15, 2010 10:06 pm

Oo, what did I miss? Deleted posts?

I'm not wrong though, BP - put in simple terms, our debate could be about whether LSotW is better than AHM or not. I say it is. You say: well, if the AHM fans think it's terribly deep and clever, who are we to say it ain't?

bumblemusprime · Post by **bumblemusprime** » Sun Aug 15, 2010 11:01 pm

Yeah, basically.

I think I have great taste and AHM is crap. I just don't like the idea of "canon" or "literature" tags because they are 1) political and 2) by definition elitist.

The general TF readership bears out my opinion that AHM is a badly constructed, posturing, without substance, drifting (ah, ah, see what I did there?) story. Same with my opinion of the almost airtight, heartbreaking, thrill-a-minute LSotW.

So why not let it be reader opinion? Why slap a "literature" tag on it (especially since, by much of your argument, we need a good four decades to see if it'll survive)?

Jack Cade · Post by **Jack Cade** » Sun Aug 15, 2010 11:29 pm

bumblemusprime wrote:The general TF readership bears out my opinion that AHM is a badly constructed, posturing, without substance, drifting (ah, ah, see what I did there?) story. Same with my opinion of the almost airtight, heartbreaking, thrill-a-minute LSotW.

So why not let it be reader opinion?

It is reader opinion. It's reader opinion that there are many books that can be dubbed 'great literature' and that the Twilight series isn't anywhere close. That's what most people who have any particular opinion on these things believe!

I mean, my mum and my sister are both Twilight fans and they're perfectly happy to acknowledge is just a bit of fun. And while neither of them are big readers, they don't have any kind of beef with the idea that the great stuff really does exist.

To generalise, the common person has no interest in tearing down the canon. People love the idea of 'greats' - it gives us something in human achievement to look up to. And anyone who has read something they consider to be 'great literature' knows that it's useful to have a phrase for it - a category in which to put those works that are, we feel, of so much more worth than airplane novels.

But if what you're proposing is some kind of pseudo-democracy, where everyone votes for their favourite book (maybe, say, a talent show where we elect the best writers in the same way the public so unerringly pick the best new musicians) then I have to wonder how happily you'd accept a vote for AHM in favour of LSotW. Would you just hang up your hat and say: "The people have spoken - I guess I was wrong"? Or can the majority sometimes be morons?

bumblemusprime · Post by **bumblemusprime** » Mon Aug 16, 2010 1:18 am

Jack Cade wrote:
bumblemusprime wrote:The general TF readership bears out my opinion that AHM is a badly constructed, posturing, without substance, drifting (ah, ah, see what I did there?) story. Same with my opinion of the almost airtight, heartbreaking, thrill-a-minute LSotW.

So why not let it be reader opinion?
It is reader opinion. It's reader opinion that there are many books that can be dubbed 'great literature' and that the Twilight series isn't anywhere close. That's what most people who have any particular opinion on these things believe!

I mean, my mum and my sister are both Twilight fans and they're perfectly happy to acknowledge is just a bit of fun. And while neither of them are big readers, they don't have any kind of beef with the idea that the great stuff really does exist.

To generalise, the common person has no interest in tearing down the canon. People love the idea of 'greats' - it gives us something in human achievement to look up to. And anyone who has read something they consider to be 'great literature' knows that it's useful to have a phrase for it - a category in which to put those works that are, we feel, of so much more worth than airplane novels.

But if what you're proposing is some kind of pseudo-democracy, where everyone votes for their favourite book (maybe, say, a talent show where we elect the best writers in the same way the public so unerringly pick the best new musicians) then I have to wonder how happily you'd accept a vote for AHM in favour of LSotW. Would you just hang up your hat and say: "The people have spoken - I guess I was wrong"? Or can the majority sometimes be morons?

Nah--I'm proposing anarchy. Classical anarchy. We don't need a canon. We don't need institutions--educational or otherwise--to officially declare that one work is better than another. Debate is good. General consensus among groups of readers is good. We just don't need a one-for-all list of great works because it inevitably get political.

I went on facebook to try and nail you down for a real chat, and you've vanished. Couldn't handle all my OMG Team Jacob! posts?

Optimus Prime Rib · Post by **Optimus Prime Rib** » Mon Aug 16, 2010 1:47 am

we are on facebook?

bumblemusprime · Post by **bumblemusprime** » Mon Aug 16, 2010 5:10 am

There's a transfans page for Facebook, but I think it's still under transfans.net.

Optimus Prime Rib · Post by **Optimus Prime Rib** » Mon Aug 16, 2010 5:44 am

I tried to join.. apparently I am not cool enough

The Last Autobot · Post by **The Last Autobot** » Mon Aug 16, 2010 5:59 am

Optimus Prime Rib wrote:I tried to join.. apparently I am not cool enough

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2 ... 660&v=info

Joined!

Jack Cade · Post by **Jack Cade** » Mon Aug 16, 2010 10:34 am

Bumblemus wrote:We don't need institutions--educational or otherwise--to officially declare that one work is better than another. Debate is good. General consensus among groups of readers is good. We just don't need a one-for-all list of great works because it inevitably get political.

But a canon is just a general consensus by any other name. It's just a label stuck on 'the bunch of books that most people whose opinions are respected agree are the top ones'. Of course its contents should be challenged and rejigged and checked thoroughly for bias and prejudice - but for all intents and purposes it's just The Critics' Top Ten, or whatever, and I don't see that much good can come from banning it outright. It's a simple tool for educators to use when planning a curriculum, rather than having to make sure they're tuned into the current cultural mood when they select books for study.

Wait - I don't think I've vanished on FB, have I? I've just joined the Transfans group in any case.

Brendocon · Post by **Brendocon** » Mon Aug 16, 2010 3:53 pm

Jack Cade wrote:Or can the majority sometimes be morons?

The majority are almost always morons.

[/sweeping generalisation]

Legion · Post by **Legion** » Mon Aug 16, 2010 4:04 pm

Brendocon wrote:
Jack Cade wrote:Or can the majority sometimes be morons?
The majority are almost always morons.

[/sweeping generalisation]

a very accurate generalisation