You know, it sounds stupid when other people do it...

Ozz · Post by **Ozz** » Thu Feb 18, 2010 9:33 am

Grant Morrison worked on Zoids and Action Force before moving to DC.

Post by **Best First** » Thu Feb 18, 2010 9:56 am

All UK writers start on 2000AD.

It is, natch, The Law.

Agree with Sprunk's assesment of the ongoing tho - so far it has done a commendable job of juggling silly and boring.

bumblemusprime · Post by **bumblemusprime** » Thu Feb 18, 2010 3:25 pm

Ozz wrote:Grant Morrison worked on Zoids and Action Force before moving to DC.

Crap.

Ah well, I probably needed to stop posting long sermons to Yaya about the evils of Costa anyway.

Yaya · Post by **Yaya** » Thu Feb 18, 2010 9:14 pm

bumblemusprime wrote: You've got blinders on, man. IDW is throwing out random nobody writers and you keep hoping that one of them will magically be The Next Grant Morrison

No, just the next Bob Budiansky or Simon Furman. Don't really think that's that much of a reach, really.

Three issues is not enough for me to say it's **** or that it's worse than AHM. Maybe for you, but not for me.

I mean, AHM is something that left us dangling for a year without delivering any sort of worthwhile climax despite promise after promise. That's a pretty low estimate of a comic.

When I heard IDW were going the ongoing route, I PM'd Ryall suggesting IDW put Nick Roche at the helm, as he's proven to be the best so far, IMO. Obviously they didn't make that choice. But when he told me they went with Costa, who had big plans mapped out for the TF for the next few years, I wasn't really that upset.

Why? Because I actually have enjoyed some of what Costa has done in the past. He's not Shane McCarthy. He's proven himself able. The acclaimed Cobra miniseries and the Starscream Coda story were excellent. Not just good, but excellent, IMO.

I know Mike is capable of doing good work. That's the difference for me. That's why I feel it necessary to give him at least six issues to see what he can do.

For me, the jury is still out with Costa. Not going to dog him just yet. He may very well deserve to get panned. But at the moment, i would think that an overly harsh reaction.

Post by **Best First** » Thu Feb 18, 2010 11:11 pm

i think its better than AHM.

And there are odd glimpses of goodness.

But its so out of whack with what has gone before and some of key points driving the story, be it events or character behaviour seem so forced, i just can't get lost in it or enjoy it to any great degree.

bumblemusprime · Post by **bumblemusprime** » Fri Feb 19, 2010 5:24 am

Maybe it's all these creative writing classes and the fact that I go through novels and short stories like a bull trying to figure out what they're doing right and what they're doing wrong...

But.

All the TF "awesome reboots" seem to have come from that knee-jerk idea reflex. You know how you don't get creative until the fourth or fifth idea?

So, idea one: Hey, let's have the Decepticons waste the planet while the Autobots are out of commission! They will start in New York and trash it!

Idea two: Let's have Optimus give himself up to make peace with the humans because the last thing Optimus ever wants is to fight with the humans.

Idea three: Let's make the Autobots somewhat callous and Ratchet goes rogue to save some kids caught up in bad Decepticon plans.

They're all decent ideas... I still love the screw-the-humans module from Infiltration... but come on, can't we push a little farther? Do something that really shakes things up?

What if...

the Decepticons are openly invited to join a nation that wants to make its soldiers into Headmasters?

Optimus Prime is discovered to have committed genocide upon worlds that collaborated with the Deceps?

A former Decepticon leader whom Megatron supposedly killed is found alive, and the Autobots induct him secretly on the condition that once he kills Megatron, he will make peace, and he succeeds? But it all goes horrible wrong, of course...

War and Peace was so appealing for the first few issues because it was 1) action-packed and 2) something we hadn't seen before.

Yaya · Post by **Yaya** » Fri Feb 19, 2010 3:08 pm

I think writers need to take a page out of Nick Roche's book and understand that readers no longer prefer the "slow boil" approach. We had that with Infiltration, we had that with AHM, and we're starting to get that with the ongoing.

If you read LSOTW, by the time you're done with the issue, you wonder how Nick (and James!) got all of that into one issue. Even if not much happens, the premise for the many things that are going to happen is set up. Like that one page of the last issue where it's just five or six panels saying "okay, here are the subplots strands we're going to see play out".

I will say this, to IDW's credit. I think this time, Schmidt made sure Roche, James, Costa, and Cannon are all on the same page, not acting indenpendently of each other. Things are hopefully going to jive and we just might get some semblence of a far-reaching cohesive TF universe by years end.

I remember starting a thread on the IDW boards last year, imploring IDW to make sure Shane and Simon were actually, you know, communicating. Guess what? They weren't. Now, as a company, how the [composite word including 'f*ck'] do you expect there to be a happy ending with that kind of sloppy-ass approach?

I'm hopeful IDW learned from this. It's actually quite sad that one has to even say "learned from this" when it's pure common sense.

Brendocon · Post by **Brendocon** » Fri Feb 19, 2010 3:40 pm

Best First wrote:i think its better than AHM.

Cancer is better than AHM.

Jack Cade · Post by **Jack Cade** » Fri Feb 19, 2010 9:32 pm

Yaya wrote:If you read LSOTW, by the time you're done with the issue, you wonder how Nick (and James!) got all of that into one issue. Even if not much happens, the premise for the many things that are going to happen is set up. Like that one page of the last issue where it's just five or six panels saying "okay, here are the subplots strands we're going to see play out".

The thing is, I know it's not easy, but it's not that difficult either. Not so hard that only literary geniuses can manage it. A lot of what Nick and James are doing is just good narrative technique. I still think it's stunning that some people who seriously aspire to be professional writers can't get this stuff down. It's like trying to drive without knowing what road signs mean or when to check your mirrors.

I don't want to take anything away from Nick and James but against the standard of writing I expect from films, novels and TV, they're what I'd call 'up to snuff', while in the world of comics they're stand out talents and in the world of Transformer comics they're gods.

That's what's wrong with comics.

Yaya · Post by **Yaya** » Fri Feb 19, 2010 9:37 pm

Jack Cade wrote:
Yaya wrote:If you read LSOTW, by the time you're done with the issue, you wonder how Nick (and James!) got all of that into one issue. Even if not much happens, the premise for the many things that are going to happen is set up. Like that one page of the last issue where it's just five or six panels saying "okay, here are the subplots strands we're going to see play out".
The thing is, I know it's not easy, but it's not that difficult either. Not so hard that only literary geniuses can manage it. A lot of what Nick and James are doing is just good narrative technique. I still think it's stunning that some people who seriously aspire to be professional writers can't get this stuff down. It's like trying to drive without knowing what road signs mean or when to check your mirrors.

I don't want to take anything away from Nick and James but against the standard of writing I expect from films, novels and TV, they're what I'd call 'up to snuff', while in the world of comics they're stand out talents and in the world of Transformer comics they're gods.

That's what's wrong with comics.

Well said and spot on.

Jack Cade · Post by **Jack Cade** » Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:50 pm

That said, I'm with Yaya on giving Costa more time. Although I don't think anything can justify this ponderous start in the sense of 'oh yeah, now it all fits together', it may be he just needs a run-up.

But he really needs to give us some real stakes and some characters to root for. I don't know how he or IDW can think that a readership is going to be engaged by a gang of characters just milling about making vague plans to escape to somewhere else where they can mill about.

bumblemusprime · Post by **bumblemusprime** » Sat Feb 20, 2010 2:01 am

Jack Cade wrote:That said, I'm with Yaya on giving Costa more time. Although I don't think anything can justify this ponderous start in the sense of 'oh yeah, now it all fits together', it may be he just needs a run-up.

But he really needs to give us some real stakes and some characters to root for. I don't know how he or IDW can think that a readership is going to be engaged by a gang of characters just milling about making vague plans to escape to somewhere else where they can mill about.

No. Three issues is definitely enough. That's half a graphic novel, so if you were skimming it in a bookstore you would put it down. That's twelve bucks, which could buy you another, albeit small, graphic novel.

Sheesh. I really, really f*cking hate Costa's writing.

Post by **Best First** » Sat Feb 20, 2010 12:18 pm

The problem with giving Costa more time is a lot of the slack he needs is purely to dig himself out of the hole he has created with the first couple of issues.

So while i may give him that time i do so so begrudgingly.

Jack Cade · Post by **Jack Cade** » Sat Feb 20, 2010 3:41 pm

Three issues is enough to judge how well someone starts an ongoing series, and Costa does so poorly. Those three issues aren't worth the money. Neither will later excellence make them retroactively worth the money. But there's a chance he just needs to hit his stride and will then be consistently producing issues that are worth the money. That's my point.

It's not like AHM where three issues is a quarter of the story and you're starting to realise that the whole thing is a grotesquely expanded single concept with nothing to do in the remaining time except clear up its own mess.

Yaya · Post by **Yaya** » Sun Feb 21, 2010 12:32 am

One place IDW messed up is on the ongoing release schedule. They pushed the fourth issue forward a couple weeks, which I feel was a mistake.

Granted, it was a positive to get LSOTW #2 so soon, but it makes an already slow burn story seem that much more slow.

I think it kind of odd that after a first issue that had a lot in it (Ironhide's death, Prime gives up, Hot Rod goes AWOL, etc) that the last two have been skimpy on the plot progression. Costa needs to make each issue like the first in terms of content. Like I said, take a page out of Nick's (and James'!) book.

I'm going to go back and reread the first three issues again. Maybe I'm missing why some like Bumblebeemus hate this as so much.

Brendocon · Post by **Brendocon** » Sun Feb 21, 2010 7:03 pm

bumblemusprime wrote:That's twelve bucks, which could buy you another, albeit small, graphic novel.

Or several "proper" books.

bumblemusprime · Post by **bumblemusprime** » Sun Feb 21, 2010 10:54 pm

How do you read them? There's no pictures!

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sun Feb 21, 2010 11:01 pm

bumblemusprime wrote:How do you read them? There's no pictures!

I don't bother paying for 'proper' books, as I can usually read the pictures on their jackets without actually buying them. And if I can't read the pictures on the jackets, then I doubt the books are any good!

bumblemusprime · Post by **bumblemusprime** » Mon Feb 22, 2010 4:43 am

I like to highlight random passages without buying the book.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Feb 22, 2010 1:56 pm

bumblemusprime wrote:I like to highlight random passages without buying the book.

Isn't that just marking your territory?

bumblemusprime · Post by **bumblemusprime** » Mon Feb 22, 2010 3:05 pm

No, to do that I pee on them.

Post by **Best First** » Mon Feb 22, 2010 6:46 pm

Jack Cade wrote:
Yaya wrote:If you read LSOTW, by the time you're done with the issue, you wonder how Nick (and James!) got all of that into one issue. Even if not much happens, the premise for the many things that are going to happen is set up. Like that one page of the last issue where it's just five or six panels saying "okay, here are the subplots strands we're going to see play out".
The thing is, I know it's not easy, but it's not that difficult either. Not so hard that only literary geniuses can manage it. A lot of what Nick and James are doing is just good narrative technique. I still think it's stunning that some people who seriously aspire to be professional writers can't get this stuff down. It's like trying to drive without knowing what road signs mean or when to check your mirrors.

I don't want to take anything away from Nick and James but against the standard of writing I expect from films, novels and TV, they're what I'd call 'up to snuff', while in the world of comics they're stand out talents and in the world of Transformer comics they're gods.

That's what's wrong with comics.

i think i must have read this, forgotten about it, and then subconcioulsy parroted it in the LSOTW 2 thread...