Maximum Dinobots #3 Review (SPOILERS)

[Jack Cade]

I mean, the dialogue in MD tends to read like it's aimed at twelve-year olds.

See my post above. You seem overly concerned with who the dialogue is aimed at, rather than whether it's any good. Accept Furman as a writer who's never gotten out of the habit of writing for the younger generation, and maybe the kid inside all of us, and MD is enjoyable - like watching Mysterious Cities of Gold or reading some of the old Beano strips, or eating ice cream cones at the seaside.

Whereas AHM is bad at what it tries to be. That's the difference.

[snarl]

It's not actually bad though is it?

Yes, there are moments when it's a bit "old skool", which Yaya seems to dwell on and pull out as an example of how the whole comic is written when IT IS NOT.

Again, as jack points out, check the context. SF has written far deeper stuff, check OTEOE, G2... MD is not one of these epic stories, it is completely different in tone.

Regardless, a lot of the dialogue is still good stuff.

[Yaya]

It's a matter of personal preference then.

I want something that goes beyond Furman's status quo. If I were after some "light fun", maybe I would dig this more.

At least McCarthy attempts to try something new. Whether he actually succeeds at it is something else, but the attempt is there.

Simon, as you say, is staying with what he knows. I don't blame the guy. It's what he's comfortable with, and IDW hasn't really asked more of him as far as we know.

But as a fan, I'm looking for more mature themes with a sprinkle of Furmanesque nostalgia. Just a sprinkle.

[Legion]

It's a matter of personal preference then.

I want something that goes beyond Furman's status quo. If I were after some "light fun", maybe I would dig this more.

At least McCarthy attempts to try something new. Whether he actually succeeds at it is something else, but the attempt is there.

Can you clarify whether you're notliking his storytelling (i.e. his plotting/scripting) or his dialogue?
As this thread seems to be swingingly wildy between the two, and they are two different things which can not really be addressed by the phrase 'Furman's status quo' for example...

Whilst Furman's dialogue sometimes might come across as a bit clunky, even that is often far superior to McCarthy's recycled cliches that he often puts out.

And if you're talking about his plotting/scripting... I'm not sure how you can compare AHM to any of the '-stations' in that regards. Halfway through AHM and _NOTHING_ had really happened! That's bad plotting.

What gets me is that people complained about the pacing in some of Furman's earlier IDW works, but don't seem to have done so about AHM? I just don't get it....

[sprunkner]

I thought Infiltration was way too slow--taking six issues just for Megatron to essentially thrash Starscream, no Autobot-vs-Decepticon mainstream conflict dealt with. It should have always been an ongoing series to deal with the multiple threads in Stormbringer, -ation, and Spotlight, but if that wasn't possible, Escalation should have had more overlap with Inflitration.

However, given that AHM has gone seven issues without more than a minor disagreement among Decepticons, it's making Infiltration look like a Stan Lee/Jack Kirby arc.

[Yaya]

It's a matter of personal preference then.

I want something that goes beyond Furman's status quo. If I were after some "light fun", maybe I would dig this more.

At least McCarthy attempts to try something new. Whether he actually succeeds at it is something else, but the attempt is there.

Can you clarify whether you're notliking his storytelling (i.e. his plotting/scripting) or his dialogue?
As this thread seems to be swingingly wildy between the two, and they are two different things which can not really be addressed by the phrase 'Furman's status quo' for example...

Whilst Furman's dialogue sometimes might come across as a bit clunky, even that is often far superior to McCarthy's recycled cliches that he often puts out.

And if you're talking about his plotting/scripting... I'm not sure how you can compare AHM to any of the '-stations' in that regards. Halfway through AHM and _NOTHING_ had really happened! That's bad plotting.

What gets me is that people complained about the pacing in some of Furman's earlier IDW works, but don't seem to have done so about AHM? I just don't get it....

I've never really had a big problem with Furman's scripting. In fact, I suggested he write the scripts and someone else tackle the dialogue.

I mean, I didn't have a problem with Stormbringer or War Within, for example, in terms of story. I enjoyed those a lot. The dialogue was not great, but the script made up for it.

And if you read my AHM reviews, I too have a big, big problem with how the pacing has been handled. I'm by no means a big AHM fan.

[Jack Cade]

At least McCarthy attempts to try something new.

As you say, maybe personal preference, but I don't give people points for attempting things when they fall woefully short. If he'd just missed his mark, having made a valiant effort, that would be different. But he's miles off because he doesn't seem (at least to me) to have put the groundwork in. Ambitious and successful would be best, but if we can't have that, I'd much rather see success achieved through sticking with the basics, rather than ambition going nowhere.

[Yaya]

At least McCarthy attempts to try something new.

As you say, maybe personal preference, but I don't give people points for attempting things when they fall woefully short. If he'd just missed his mark, having made a valiant effort, that would be different. But he's miles off because he doesn't seem (at least to me) to have put the groundwork in. Ambitious and successful would be best, but if we can't have that, I'd much rather see success achieved through sticking with the basics, rather than ambition going nowhere.

"Woefully short"? "Missed by a mile"?

See, what bewilders me is how one can so harshly critique AHM and McCarthy whilst putting on the kid gloves for Simon. I think there is an inherent bias in favor of Simon in your assessment.

Why let Simon slip by when he errs or underperforms, but attack Shane mercilessly when he makes his mistakes?

It's a double standard. If you're going to critique, do so with some consistency.

If not for the pacing issues of AHM, I would say I would have enjoyed it more than what I've read in MD, taking the art and story both into consideration.

Again, I don't think this really comes down to logic. It's a matter of taste.

[sprunkner]

I remember rolling my eyes significantly at a few -ation passages of dialogue. What was that one between Jimmy and Verity--you know, the one that ended, "Oh yeah--freaks!" And then the horrible punning of Hot Rod and Wheeljack vs. the Headstreakers. "Dangerous curves!"

But I think that a blanket appraisal of Simon's dialogue as cheesy might overlook some of the really cool stuff he can do because he likes that type of dialogue. It reminds me a bit of Buffy. Certain things they would say and do were so cheesy--I hated Faith's artificial-sounding slang--but then they could turn a phrase pretty spectacularly.

I'm thinking of times like "Starscream, take your punishment like a Decepticon" or "To have crossed a galaxy [or whatever it is] merely for wounded pride..."

[snarl]

Yeah, the Jimmy and Verity stuff was ****.

I hope they're dead.

But a lot of SF's other stuff is very good.

I have liked nothing from the ozzy so far.

[Mr_Tigg]

At least McCarthy attempts to try something new.

As you say, maybe personal preference, but I don't give people points for attempting things when they fall woefully short. If he'd just missed his mark, having made a valiant effort, that would be different. But he's miles off because he doesn't seem (at least to me) to have put the groundwork in. Ambitious and successful would be best, but if we can't have that, I'd much rather see success achieved through sticking with the basics, rather than ambition going nowhere.

"Woefully short"? "Missed by a mile"?

See, what bewilders me is how one can so harshly critique AHM and McCarthy whilst putting on the kid gloves for Simon. I think there is an inherent bias in favor of Simon in your assessment.

Why let Simon slip by when he errs or underperforms, but attack Shane mercilessly when he makes his mistakes?

It's a double standard. If you're going to critique, do so with some consistency.

If not for the pacing issues of AHM, I would say I would have enjoyed it more than what I've read in MD, taking the art and story both into consideration.

Again, I don't think this really comes down to logic. It's a matter of taste.

I know dialogue is not Furman's strongest point, but he more then compensates for it with the scope of his stories, etc.

Shane is "attacked mercilessly" because to put it simply, his dialogue really isn't that good either. He's as bad as Furman in his own way, ok he probably makes more of an effort to give character's a 'voice', but the end result really is "woefully short" - characters come across as 2D pantomine stereotypes.

For the record - how is "I'll skip to the punch line!" any worse than "fear! terror! I am the master of these things!" (or whatever screamer says). Shane relies on cliche's just as much as Furman in the dialogue, and on top of that you have the awful attempts at 'military poetry' from Megatron.

At least Furman hits the nail on the head with the space opera/gripping story elements/decent pacing elements. Shane fails misrably at these as well - its all overblown cliches and stereotypes. Honestly when reading AHM you can pick out the moments from cheesy action films that have obviously inspired each particular scene - some of the plotting is so woeful it goes from childish to stupid and back again.

If you want to read an author who gives real voice to characters (which is supposedly the best thing Shane does) then Alan Moore is the man - I read LXG for the first time this week, and Shane's character voices are micky mouse in comparison!

Of course opinions are going to play a large part of your enjoyment of either, but if you break down each in a semi-logical manner into categories, exploring areas they fall short, etc, I think the Shane's problems would outweigh Furman's by a fair amount.

An example would be the aforementioned writing of human characters. Furman's where in a state of flux, ranging from badly written to tolerable. Meanwhile Shane's humans have just been plain bad...I mean come on! General Witwicky anyone?

[Jack Cade]

"Woefully short"? "Missed by a mile"?

See, what bewilders me is how one can so harshly critique AHM and McCarthy whilst putting on the kid gloves for Simon. I think there is an inherent bias in favor of Simon in your assessment.

There isn't. It's as I've described - Simon is succeeding in his aims, albeit that his aims could be said to be unambitious, and more like the kind of story that could be written for a younger audience. Your earlier objection to it, I think, cements the fact that your objection is MD isn't even trying to be the kind of thing you want from a TF comic. You're asking for one thing and he's giving you another - that isn't grounds for serious criticism. That's just your tastes.

McCarthy is a different kettle of fish because he's obviously aiming to write something closer to what you want out of your TF comics but he is failing in a manner that is painful to experience. The idea that objections to AHM all revolve around it being a 'different style' is nonsense - a huge amount of what is excruciating about it is understanding what a scene is supposed to convey and instantly weighing that against what has been achieved.

Case in point: Jazz's kung fu versus the arrival of the Monsterbots. There is no sense that the Monsterbots' dialogue is supposed to be revelatory or poetic, or that their appearance is supposed to fill the reader with awe. It's just a colourful, kinetic splash page replete with groanworthy puns. It may not be what you want, but you can't honestly believe that Furman was trying for something other than what you got and fell short. He obviously thinks puns have their place; you don't.

McCarthy's scene with Jazz, however, was obviously supposed to impress upon us the idea that he's dangerous, clever and experienced. We're supposed to think, "Whoa! I wouldn't mess with that bastard." Hence his constantly stoic expression and the gun-in-the-face panel. Instead, it feels pretentious, ripped off from somewhere else, stagey and dull all at the same time. It's not that I don't think characters should ever be stoic, or badass, or deadly in the way that you don't think they should use cheesy puns - it's that the whole execution is poor.

[Yaya]

. It's not that I don't think characters should ever be stoic, or badass, or deadly in the way that you don't think they should use cheesy puns - it's that the whole execution is poor.

I have nothing against the actual tossing of puns by characters well known for their lighthearted approach to battle.

My biggest problem with Simon's pun-prone dialogue is that it's given to so many of his characters, they all sound the same. If I had my way, the Dinobots would say nothing at all. They would simply act, and by their action, speak louder. Hot Rod, on the other hand, would be spouting puns every sentence.

How would I have written the Monsterbots? Speech-impeded with a strange quirkiness to their vocal processors. They would be a stupidly rash group, found disgusting not just in their speech but in the way they do battle. I would have Repugnus drink the fuel from the head of his decapitated enemy. They would be different and speak different, not as Dinobot/Predacon/every-other-Furmanbot clones.

Must every character quip? Must every character volley puns at their enemies?

[Hound]

Christ we may as well have Warpath turn up and go 'WEEEEEE KABLOWWWY! I like to make things go BOOOOOOM!!!' and Seaspray be all like 'GURGLE, I sound like I'm underwater! SPLOOSH'

[Jack Cade]

Must every character quip? Must every character volley puns at their enemies?

No, but again, you're comparing how you want to see things done with how Furman does things. What's not in issue is his skill as a writer because he's obviously not even trying to do things the way you want them done.

Don't get me wrong - it sounds like what you want out of TF comics is similar to what I might ideally want. But it's you and me, in a restaurant, hankering after banoffee pie and finding the choice is between a pot of chocolate mousse and a banoffee pie that's actually just a thin layer of cream and biscuit filled with air. You can't criticise the chocolate mousse for being a bad banoffee pie. You can say it's not what you want for dessert, but that doesn't make it bad.

[Guest]

All we'd need then is the posting of "I hate Furman!" and "You're ALL Furmanites!" and it'll be the Grand Slam of '04 all over again.

[Yaya]

Don't get me wrong - it sounds like what you want out of TF comics is similar to what I might ideally want.

I have read your posts, your ideas. I don't think we are too far off in the way we would like to see things handled. As much as it pains me to say this, I would not mind seeing you writing TF.

And I'm pretty confident that, given what we have now, you could do a better job of it.

And how about Mowry? He takes the movie stuff, which I am not that fond of, and writes a very entertaining mini out of it.

All we'd need then is the posting of "I hate Furman!" and "You're ALL Furmanites!" and it'll be the Grand Slam of '04 all over again.

I'll take credit, I was the first to use that word "Furmanite". Put it in the wiki folks.

Christ we may as well have Warpath turn up and go 'WEEEEEE KABLOWWWY! I like to make things go BOOOOOOM!!!' and Seaspray be all like 'GURGLE, I sound like I'm underwater! SPLOOSH'

Very cringe-worthy TF moments, no doubt, but the intention of said stupidity, to make characters different and stand out in some way, was dead on target.

[sprunkner]

I like the idea of batshit psycho Monsterbots. Though silent Dinobots would drive me nuts.

What was the Grand Slam of 04? Anything close to the Great Stalking of 08?

[Yaya]

I like the idea of batshit psycho Monsterbots. Though silent Dinobots would drive me nuts.

I see the Dinobots as efficient killing machines that all too often cross the line in terms of Autobot war etiquette. Their actions speak for them. Outcasts in general TF life, they are most comfortable in the field of battle, where they mesh so well as a team, that verbal communication is not necessary. Does one foot have to talk to the other when a body in running? I see the Dinbots as being the best of the lot in warfare, where they fight as one body, not as five.

That's what I meant when I said they would say nothing. Kind of like Arnold's squad in the movie Predator. Each member knows what the other will do when in battle, and thus they move as one, and words become superfluous.

That's how I would write the Dinobots.

Not that this is anything new, per se. Simon has written them like this before, back in his Marvel UK days. Now, they have become cliche-spouting sentimentals.

[Mr_Tigg]

I like the idea of batshit psycho Monsterbots. Though silent Dinobots would drive me nuts.

I see the Dinobots as efficient killing machines that all too often cross the line in terms of Autobot war etiquette. Their actions speak for them. Outcasts in general TF life, they are most comfortable in the field of battle, where they mesh so well as a team, that verbal communication is not necessary. Does one foot have to talk to the other when a body in running? I see the Dinbots as being the best of the lot in warfare, where they fight as one body, not as five.

That's what I meant when I said they would say nothing. Kind of like Arnold's squad in the movie Predator. Each member knows what the other will do when in battle, and thus they move as one, and words become superfluous.

That's how I would write the Dinobots.

Not that this is anything new, per se. Simon has written them like this before, back in his Marvel UK days. Now, they have become cliche-spouting sentimentals.

Heh heh, much as I love Predator, the lads in that are a bit on the two dimensional side. I'm not sure it would work in a comic book, but different strokes and all that.

Can you imagine Grimlock styled on Arnie?

[Manchester Devil]

Can you imagine Grimlock styled on Arnie?

"Get to da Skyfiah!", "Halavista, Shockvave.", "Scrap you, Empty.", "Don't deestrub my friend, he's logged off."

Arnie uses puns, man. And we know Yaya hates puns.

Alright, seriously I'll be honest. I have no idea what IDW and McCarthy are trying to acheive with AHM. All it did was alienate people with dialogue that is banal at best and truly dire at worst (Yaya, I dare you to quote what you thought is good dialogue in AHM), sequences that were supposed to be cool but end up as contrived bollocks and making characters like Jazz and Ironhide come across as bullies.
And that's before we get to all those continuity howlers that read as a massive slap in the face to Furman, Roche et al and readers who've enjoyed what Furman was trying to acheive.

Regarding assigning voices to words in comics, I have no problem doing this with Furman's dialogue, seeing there's a difference between Hardhead going "Yeah, yeah" and Skram saying the same thing. McCarthy, on the other hand, doesn't have this ability in his dialogue, with Thundercracker basically reduced to shouting "HEY GUYS, I HAVE A PERSONALITY!" when the spotlight is on him. And crap comedy accents don't make you unique, you're still a faceless **** if you do nothing that makes you really stand out.

[Predabot]

Finally got ahold of this myself! Some good fun fights, which makes for a pleasant read. And there's some elegance to how many of his plot-threads Furman seem to be tying together here.

Next issue will be quite interesting, if it can all be bagged and tagged neat and orderly, so the ending will feel proper.

[Yaya]

Here's what one fan posted on tfarchive about the Monsterbots intro.

I take that mr. Furman has been asked by IDW to give more space to "tough and cool guys" action, in line with other current productions, and so mr Furman does, but without giving back to his superb style.
The Monsterbots' arrival is just a perfect example of this: their puns are awful because Furman wantes them to be awful; they are just what all the "tough cool" superheroes in comics spit out when they are entering the fray. No characterization here, just machism: but in this case, the puns are so exaggerated that they become what they are meant to be, a sharp parody of this style.

See, here's the kind of thing that always bothers me.

Many people who bash McCarthy simply call it ****, and hang the guy for it.

But when Simon gives us an equally smelly crock of ****, the above kind of tripe is given in his defense in an attempt to explain away any weakness in the writing by labelling it a masterful display of purposeful artistic license. The poster above even makes IDW the scapegoat for said tripe, as if Simon was ordered to write in this fashion.

Why not just say it's **** too, and move on?

[sprunkner]

Simon has freely admitted to being of the Chris Claremont school of writing, though I honestly think his writing has aged more gracefully.

[The Last Autobot]

Here's what one fan posted on tfarchive about the Monsterbots intro.

I take that mr. Furman has been asked by IDW to give more space to "tough and cool guys" action, in line with other current productions, and so mr Furman does, but without giving back to his superb style.
The Monsterbots' arrival is just a perfect example of this: their puns are awful because Furman wantes them to be awful; they are just what all the "tough cool" superheroes in comics spit out when they are entering the fray. No characterization here, just machism: but in this case, the puns are so exaggerated that they become what they are meant to be, a sharp parody of this style.

See, here's the kind of thing that always bothers me.

Many people who bash McCarthy simply call it ****, and hang the guy for it.

But when Simon gives us an equally smelly crock of ****, the above kind of tripe is given in his defense in an attempt to explain away any weakness in the writing by labelling it a masterful display of purposeful artistic license. The poster above even makes IDW the scapegoat for said tripe, as if Simon was ordered to write in this fashion.

Why not just say it's **** too, and move on?

Even if I that as true -which I dont think it is, I like the Monsterbots characterization- one of the differences is that we know Simon and what he can/will do with the stories and characters.

He is like an old friend. You know his strenghts and weaknesses and you expect to always surprise you in some way, its just a matter of time. Although he has nothing to prove. This other guy is a nobody who writes mostly ****

[Destron]

Furman may not be a scriptwriting virtuoso and one can criticize his work for that or another reason, but no doubt there is one important thing he possesses. It's simply the ability of making Transformers cool (the same applies to Nick Roche). I can't think of a single character, be it machine or human, which I totally dislike or hate in Maximum Dinobots. On the other hand, watching the way they all act and look was sheer fun from the very beginning. Scorponok, Sunstreaker, Hot Rod, Shockwave and, last but not least, Dynobots - every single page with them screams out with pure coolness. Didn't feel that way since Marvel G1 run, I think. Surely, Spotlight: Kup for instance outscores Simon's work in terms of overall maturity and deep storytelling but I am not entirely convinced if it would work equally good without the TF context delivered mostly by Furman.
Maybe it's just me but do the interactions between the Dinobots remind anyone else of the TMNT (with Grimlock as Leonardo and Swoop as Raphael)? Which of course isn't a bad thing at all.

Oh, and what's the meaning of "...we still do" on the last page? I completely don't get it.

[Yaya]

Furman may not be a scriptwriting virtuoso and one can criticize his work for that or another reason, but no doubt there is one important thing he possesses. It's simply the ability of making Transformers cool (the same applies to Nick Roche). I can't think of a single character, be it machine or human, which I totally dislike or hate in Maximum Dinobots. On the other hand, watching the way they all act and look was sheer fun from the very beginning. Scorponok, Sunstreaker, Hot Rod, Shockwave and, last but not least, Dynobots - every single page with them screams out with pure coolness. Didn't feel that way since Marvel G1 run, I think. Surely, Spotlight: Kup for instance outscores Simon's work in terms of overall maturity and deep storytelling but I am not entirely convinced if it would work equally good without the TF context delivered mostly by Furman.
Maybe it's just me but did the interactions between the Dinobots remind anyone else of the TMNT (with Grimlock as Leonardo and Swoop as Raphael)? Which of course isn't a bad thing at all.

Hey, that's all cool. Simon has a style, it's worked before, and most of time, still works. Not really a fan of his dialogue, but if you look at my reviews, overall, I have seen Simon's IDW work in a positive light.

My gripe is the double standard by which other writers are judged relative to Simon.

Specifically, in this instance, I'm speaking about Simon vs. Shane in terms of script. Furman fans give leeway to the inherent plot holes and contrivances in Simon's work, altogether ignoring them, whilst nailing Shane for similar said weakness.

I don't have a problem with a fan preferring Simon over Shane. We all have our preferences. We like some things others don't, and that's just the way it is.

[Destron]

My gripe is the double standard by which other writers are judged relative to Simon.

As a matter of fact, I believe that the double standard (in reasonable degree) is SOMETIMES legitimate.
Former expectations play a great role when it comes to judgements. Rules are plain and simple here: the higher the expectations, the more has to be done to meet them. In the case of a sequel of a great movie one usually demands much more than he would if it was a stand-alone film. Master thesis must/should meet stricter standards than any other paper written during studies. That's just the way it is and there's nothing wrong with it. When newbie all of a sudden gets 12 issues to work with and Furman's comics are constantly underpromoted a healthy dose of scepticism from the fans shouldn't be a surprise.

That said, I have to admit many people are going waaay too far in their reactions (I myself am enjoying AHM, especially very good Sunstreaker's part).